Crash Bandicoot - Great Hall piano solo (Demo 3 hosted)

[Rexy]

UPDATE 09/05/2011 [V3] - Another production overhaul including reverb and EQ re-evaluation, some further volume adjustments and tasteful splicing of any dead air to make it flow smoother. Full details are on the latest post.

UPDATE 27/04/2011 [V2.2] - Realised that I limited the reverb as well. Rectified that.

UPDATE 23/04/2011 [V2.1] - After a misunderstanding on the Roomworks plugin, as well as noticing that some soundcard settings were also responsible for the popping when rendering, Demo 2 got a further remastering.

UPDATE 22/04/2011 [V2] - Refined the production a bit more. Taken advice to go by a different reverb plugin, as well as some equalising and limiter application. Hopefully the recording should sound much clearer. Screenshots of my plugin settings are on page 2.

UPDATE 18/04/2011 [V1.1] - Remastered to erase all trace of popping.

---

Yep. I guess it's my calling to try and return here.

So, it's April 2011, it's been a good few months since djp hosted ABG's "Third Eye" and called out for some Crash mixes onto the site... and it seems as if nothing's happened.

What's happened to the awareness I allegedly spread during my time here? Even then I wasn't all that great to succeed to get stuff posted on the site, so surely encouraging others to take a look into the score would help?

Nope. When I stated my plans for the first time via Facebook, all I got was a certain Mr. Strader telling me that he has no idea what the hell the Crash series is.

The plans though were to try and take it back into my own hands. I really don't have the confidence to get through this process again, but I'm going to have to knuckle down if that's what it takes.

Long monologue aside, here be my attempt to respond to djp's wish.

I picked the music for

from the original Crash title because it seemed to fit my style a lot more than some of the more beat/riff-heavy tracks all over the original PS1 games' scores (lol devo). Cameos were also slipped in for the game's

, and a hint of

was also used in the intro.

The feeling invoked here is more of an expansion on the ending for Crash 1. Interpretation in white text:

You've left Castle Cortex in flames after storming through it to rescue your girlfriend Tawna, and you've fought against said scientist on top of his blimp with a tenacious victory. And with the girl back in your arms, you both ride into the sunset with your heads held high. Yet you may realise that Dr. Cortex may re-emerge someday to reclaim what he believed to be rightfully his, but you try to put it to the back of your mind as you and the damsel keep riding onwards.

I really want to push everything I've got to try and see that long-desired wish of a Crash mix on the site. This is MY adolescence we're talking about here, not to mention a link to my namesake; and I'm even prepared to put a bounty on the entire series if I don't make it. >_>

Alas, I would thank you all for any feedback given. I can really do with it

[Rukunetsu]

Wow. That's some really good stuff.

[Turtle]

I love it.

[Rexy]

I appreciate the sudden praise, but this is the first time I've been to the workshop for some time, so I was kind of hoping for some constructive criticisms o_O Either way, thanks nevertheless.

I re-mastered it as I stated last night, so hopefully the version in the OP should now be a clean recording

[Turtle]

I guess my only real gripe would be that for some parts in the middle, I didn't really recognize it as Crash Bandicoot music. But keep in mind that I tend to like more conservative arrangements, so it's probably just a matter of preference. And none of it is badly done.

[Rukunetsu]

Apologies, but i'm not the type to overly nit-pick away at tunes, since I don't have 1/4th of the knowledge of many who frequent this site- I keeps it simple. If something sounds bad or off, I'll say it sounds bad and say why. This sounds pretty legit to me, thus, I personally did not feel the need to criticize it.

But fret not - I'm certain someone will fulfill your request very soon.

[Level 99]

YES! Finally, someone takes on Crash Bandicoot.

1:32 and other loud section clip a bit, resulting in some distortion. I'd put a limiter on there or lower the volume slightly.

I love the low end, and how loud it is at time. This piano's got some big ol' ivory balls! What I'm not sure about is how it sounds almost honkey-tonk-ish in timbre. What piano are you using?

Source tune is pretty evident from what I can tell. I'm not intimate with the source or anything, I just took a cursory listen so I might be wrong. But right now my brain is telling me I can hear it.

Overall, I love the feel of this and the performance is very good and tight. Good arrangement too. A few niggles as I mentioned above, will wait on further info before I make any more comments.

[Rexy]

Yeah, I had a lot of issues with mastering it as was evident the first time around. I'll remember the limiter though, should probably help me with the "too quiet" versus "ow distortion" debates.

In regards to the piano tone, the soundfont used there was the 4f-piano VSTi, which seemed to compliment my setup well for the past 2 years. Now that I'm since running on better hardware, I can be prepared to change to a more powerful soundbank, though if anyone has any ideas on what direction to go in, they would be more than welcome.

Otherwise, thanks so much for offering your help Stevo

[Brandon Strader]

I use Alicia's Keys which I think sounds the most realistic, but the tone you get with it is kinda limited. Like a specific type of somewhat soft Grand Piano tone. It's pretty nice though and I've been using it on everything. :3

This soundfont actually isn't too bad, but this as a whole would probably sound a lot better with a cleaner library. I like the heavier bit, but there's a ton of body/low-end in there that seems unusual for solo piano. This is also fairly skimpy on reverb-usage. I have a feeling if you put reverb on here, however, with how strong the lower-mids are in the heavy sections, it would be disastrous. Might be good to tastefully slice out some of the low/mids.. maybe around 500-800Hz and see what happens, that's a guesstimate. And maybe highpass to around 100Hz or so.

The performance is amazing, probably something I'd never be able to do with solo piano. You're spot on there, and I can't wait to hear what you do with this one. Glad to see you trying to get on OCR again, it's been too many years.

[Rexy]

The demos I've seen for Alicia's Keys look promising and could fit with some softer performances; however, if I am to invest on it then I might have to wait til I come back from my vacation next week. I don't think there's anywhere that would just get you to download the whole thing immediately after purchase :\

Either way, very helpful tips in regards to the tone Brandon. You brought up an observant point about reverb; I was kind of concerned about the whole thing being too cloudy if I ended up going by the standard settings I've gotten used to in the past. Right now, my settings currently stand at this:

In past arrangements my predelay and room size would be roughly twice as big, but then there came the cloudiness concern again. I could try expanding the room size at least by another 50% and see what happens, if by "skimpy" you mean "not enough room for the reverb to flow around".

And yes, it has been way too long.

[Brandon Strader]

The demos I've seen for Alicia's Keys look promising and could fit with some softer performances; however, if I am to invest on it then I might have to wait til I come back from my vacation next week. I don't think there's anywhere that would just get you to download the whole thing immediately after purchase :\

Either way, very helpful tips in regards to the tone Brandon. You brought up an observant point about reverb; I was kind of concerned about the whole thing being too cloudy if I ended up going by the standard settings I've gotten used to in the past. Right now, my settings currently stand at this:

In past arrangements my predelay and room size would be roughly twice as big, but then there came the cloudiness concern again. I could try expanding the room size at least by another 50% and see what happens, if by "skimpy" you mean "not enough room for the reverb to flow around".

And yes, it has been way too long.

It's great that you use Cubase, but do you have Roomworks? I have no idea what reverb that thang is you use. With Roomworks you could set the low to like... 800Hz... so the reverb would only affect frequencies above that, makes reverb a lot cleaner I think

Buh.. buh... buy? If you're gonna buy a library don't go out and get one on my recommendation, like I said, I'm only an amateur pianist. The library Emunator uses is pretty nice. He uses: http://www.tonehammer.com/?p=3575 Check out some samples from many different libraries and see what you like the most I guess... (OR ASK PEOPLE TO PUT YOUR NOTES THROUGH THEIR STUFF THEY ALREADY HAVE)

[halc]

haven't forgotten about you, Rexy. I apologize that I am slightly inebriated at the moment, but for what it's worth it makes anything I listen to that much more pleasant.

getting right down to it, the recording seems kinda muffled, and during the quieter sections it seemed like the ambient fuzz was still cutting through. the overall volume was also a bit low imo. I know solo piano shouldn't be an ear-bleeder or anything but I was wanting to crank this one up just a bit more (although it does seem a bit overcooked during the louder sections as Level 99 mentioned, I think it's an EQ issue moreso than volume).

as far as arrangement goes, you know what you are doing, and you always do an impressive job of blending multiple themes. I'm not fit to do a breakdown right now but I gave the sources a listen and I'm definitely able to identify the 'Great Hall' theme easily in your mix.

pretty great stuff really; it'd be nice to hear a cleaner, higher quality recording, but nonetheless it's worth submitting. assuming the source checks out, I'd YES this.

[Rexy]

lol halc, I know you're a new judge but I'm sure the giant yay/nay fonts should be better off saved for the panel.

But thanks very much in regards to the feedback! I recall having a huge track record for mixing too quiet, but for the most part that with Stevo's limiter experimenting suggestion have helped for the most part in trying to bring out a clearer sound in the coming update.

So, it's over on the OP. I've taken the production based feedback, and my settings currently stand at thus:

My limiter settings. This was the only dynamics plugin that I had that didn't distort the sound when the limiter was turned on for some reason. Having it set to its default -6.0 made the louder parts sound a bit too flimsy, but I hope this compromise - coupled with the mixer feed boost, which on original output settings somehow brought the input signal to around -3.0 - would also be able to reduce any form of pops.

The current EQ settings, as per Brandon's instructions. They definitely made the recording sound a lot less bassy, so thank you

And yes, I have RoomWorks, so I gave that a go and had a play around. This setting seemed to have a good subtle hall ambience about it when hearing it back.

The Tonehammer sound sounds a little flimsy for what I'm looking for but I can't deny that it's got some good expression behind it. But I need to remember what you said about you being an amateur and not quite taking said remarks to heart, Brandon. I might grab it down the line, but maybe not for some time yet due to its price tag.

I have also closely analysed the source-liberty ratio and measured it out to be 14:11, so I'm sure it'll check out fine with the panel.

I'm glad to see I'm practically there arrangement wise, but is there anything else that may need looking into in spite of these improvements? I'm open to see how much further this could probably be refined

[Brandon Strader]

Dang that's an older version of Cubase, I've never seen... crazy. You've still got the Low set to 25Hz on that Roomworks though.. hehe..

[Rexy]

Yeah, apparently I'm still stuck on version 2.2, but it somehow still works. xD

But by frequency altering on RoomWorks you were referring to the dampening rather than the input filter? **facedesk** I'll see if I can tweak it just a little more. Thanks for the clarification

[Brandon Strader]

I have no idea haha, I know what the modern version of Roomworks looks like and this old one has me confused. If you could hear the difference with your ears with the reverb when you set it like you did, then that's cool. It should be an audible difference, you should be having reverb with less low-end

[Rexy]

Now I understand - the actual moisture for the reverb was to be looked into, not the input signal. Don't worry, I've managed to look into it again and rectified it.

During the remaster I also played around with my sound card as to why I don't see a clipping signal in Cubase when mastering but sometimes I actually hear pops when hearing the mix back. Then it struck me - looking into my PC speaker settings there was a sound playback enhancer option that might've unintentionally amplified the playback while rendering it. It worked because after turning it off, the clicks on WAV playback seemed to have vanished.

The limiter setting was boosted to -1.5, and Roomworks now looks like this:

This would probably also be my last revision before I leave for Ireland tomorrow. My expectations for when I return next week are pretty much the same as the past few days

[Rexy]

Hm, it's Wednesday and there's still nothing yet. :s

Either way, I remembered one thing that hindered the mix moreso than it should've done, and that was piping the reverb through the limiter as well - not a wise idea.

Demo 2 therefore got a remaster for a second time. Still awaiting any further tech feedback, so thanks in advance.

(sorry for the quick response, away from home I'm net surfing on limited time X_x)

[Rexy]

Hosted onto Tindeck before the Yousendit link expired.

Seriously, if no one seems to be responding, either there doesn't seem to be a demand for the series on OCR right now (x_x) or that it's practically done (in which case I'd be asking for a second mod review before long).

But please, save me the heartache from the judges' panel - every little bit helps x)

[Level 99]

If you're ready for that kind of eval, gotta change the status to Mod Review. I'll get back to you with some notes shortly.

[Brandon Strader]

I subbed my own solo piano and I don't know how well it will do so I'm reasonably cautious about being too particular about the details of this. You're a lot more skilled than me on Piano so I dunno

[Turtle]

Rest assured that you're not the only one who wants a Crash remix on the site.

...you're just seemingly the only one with the talent and drive to get one there. :^|

[melody]

i actually think the unrealistic sound of your piano sample actually unintentionally helps to shape the experience into a more immersive one. the attack and tone quality are pretty reminiscent of tin piano/honkey-tonk, which for me really emphasizes that old salon jazz solo piano feel that's present here. which, especially at the end, is accented by some of your chord voicings and ragtime-esque rhythms. as big of a fan of alicia's keys as i am, i think that using that as your piano sample would effectively trample the great foundation you've laid out here.

the writing and general progression of the piece strikes me with that sort of nostalgic sunday afternoon feel you get from pieces like final fantasy 8's balamb garden, and is something i can really get into. sections like the triumphant fanfare and following somber section naturally flow into each other and make this piece dynamic while never straying entirely from the core feel of the song. purely compositionally i feel like you did a great job, but for me, the execution isn't quite there yet. the velocities on your notes seem to be on full blast for a significant portion of your mix, which downplays the contrast between the more plodding portions of your song against sections like the buildup at the end, and the climactic finish. the timing constantly seems to meander, not in the rubato sense which is such a hallmark of solo piano performances, but in a way that sounds like you automated cubase's metronome to randomly fluctuate from measure to measure. the relative placements of your notes seem off by a small enough margin to seem virtually negligible while being awkward at the same time. if you are inputting all these notes in with a mouse, i would advise quantizing everything to your grid and creatively automating your tempo parameter to sculpt a believable performance. if you are performing this piece in real time i would suggest practicing to a metronome until you get very comfortable with it and then start incorporating rubatos once you have a more total sense of the arrangement and note placement.

as for the production, i honestly think you don't need to mess around with too much. this is a solo piece after all, and you aren't making eq cuts to accommodate another samples, so leave the piano alone and really let it shine. if anything you should be boosting it in its mid ranges, where the piano is most distinctive. i would really ease up on your compressor, a -20db threshold is totally unnecessary for a piece where dynamics are especially important. subtlety will be the key in coaxing out the most of your performance here. your reverb has a bit of a realistically-impossible aqueous quality which i'm not totally sure is working for your mix. i think you should embrace the inherently live nature of solo piano performance and run with that. go with a small jazz hall reverb or a light concert hall reverb. a very subdued dining room/idle chatter sample that plays throughout the mix coupled with courtesy applause samples to bookend your mix could potentially make this even more immersive than it already is.

just my two cents~

[Brandon Strader]

melody makes a good pint

[Rexy]

You mean melody would be good at milking out the best from all the remixing cows here?

Well, that was one post that was tricky to comprehend at 7 in the morning but I do indeed understand what you were coming from. For the most part I will understand that I'm going to have to re-evaluate the performance for demo 3, which somehow seems to be the reason on why I sometimes struggle to get by in the past (albeit this time the usual writing problem doesn't seem to be getting in the way, so that's good ).

As of now I'm still waiting on Stevo to provide a fresh opinion, but I've managed to form an action plan on how to approach the next demo. Thank goodness for 4-day weekends, as it'll give me time to hopefully put something together closer to the end.

Only one point doesn't seem to come into consideration and that's the whole audience sampling idea. To my knowledge, within more recent OCRemix postings they've only seemed to have occurred in actual live performances, in which my only opportunity would be via the Tuesday night church meetings that I go to. That still won't work for me for 2 reasons - A) I don't think my dictaphone is going to cut me recording the local church's piano all that well, and my audience would mostly be children with short attention spans.

But otherwise, I'll be sure to keep refining my technique some more over the coming days. I'll keep that in mind for Demo 3.

One last question in this post: while you brought up the EQ and considering my previous mastering issues, should I keep the high pass detailed in the EQ screencap? Or would it sound more natural without it?