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Ethan Rex

The Dark Knight Rises - POTENTIAL SPOILERS

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You're complaining about bends in reality and logic in a movie series about a broke cripple who has access to futuristic weapons, inertia ignoring motorcycles and a super computer in his basement?

You say "yet with a fancy knee brace, Batman hasn't lost a step except when it comes to fighting Bane for the first time." I don't think it's at all unrealistic to suggest someone who has access to a flying bat ship also has access to some really nice body equipment.

This is all good and fine within the context of the film, as these things are somewhat feasible, especially if you're a billionaire with his own private weapons R&D Dept. But one knee brace doesn't fix everything. If they showed like an exosuit or something, well that kind of makes sense. A knee brace doesn't fix your elbows.

The reason he was able to recover in The Pit was because the physician punched his spine back into order.

This doesn't put cartilage back on the rest of your destroyed joints!

Are you at all suggesting the Joker never had a chance to do something that would have screwed everything? You're talking as if Dark Knight Rises is a sole offender in this category. You should try playing some of the thousands of video games, movies, comic books, books, etc. that also have this kind of problem.

I'm not sure what you mean by the Joker screwing everything.

I agree, there are a bazillion other offenders who fail with similar problems. Their failure do not make it acceptable for everyone else to fail, does it? It's not rocket science, it's consistent storytelling.

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You haven't embraced the premise, you haven't suspended disbelief enough to buy into the movie. That's fair.

But let's not pretend TDKR isn't living by the same rules as its predecessors. If you bought into Batman Begins AND The Dark Knight, but you don't buy into Rises, then you're holding this latest film to a higher level of realism than its predecessors.

A cape that let's you paraglide, an aerosolized fear toxin that has to be inhaled, a giant microwave emitter to vaporize water from a distance, a man who can fall from any height, take any number of blows, be shot at, stabbed, yet only twice be seriously injured... And there was that time a psychopath enacted a logistically impossible attack on a city. And then in the next movie, when that happened again. A mini-tank like vehicle that can jump across a river and drive across rooftops. The technically infeasible motorcycle that jettisons from said vehicle's remains. There's the psychotic billionaire who decided to become a vigilante in the first place, and the even more deranged old man who thought, "This could work," and proceeded to support and enable him.

The problem with Rises is that TDK made people think the world of the story was so very realistic, and then Rises didn't deliver on a realistic world that the series had never actually promised us. I can accept that TDKR was hard to embrace in that way, but let's not pretend that it is somehow the sole and egregious trespasser.

The storytelling in the series was, actually, very consistent. But your expectations were not. That's not unreasonable, but it's important to identify.

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A cape that let's you paraglide, an aerosolized fear toxin that has to be inhaled, a giant microwave emitter to vaporize water from a distance, a man who can fall from any height, take any number of blows, be shot at, stabbed, yet only twice be seriously injured... And there was that time a psychopath enacted a logistically impossible attack on a city. And then in the next movie, when that happened again. A mini-tank like vehicle that can jump across a river and drive across rooftops. The technically infeasible motorcycle that jettisons from said vehicle's remains.

I would argue, are all these things, really impossible? Yes, for the average person, this tech is not doable, for now, but neither was flying until the Wright Bros did it.

Ok, the resistance to injury is a bit of a stretch, but he did have some protective gear on. Although, I still think as I previously mentioned, the Rachel drop rescue didn't actually work well.

What is so logistically impossible about the Joker's attack? All throughout the movie, we see he's able to manipulate and employ various people and methods to get what he wants. And he's got tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars that he stole from the mob to buy practically anything or anyone (as we saw in the opening heist). Can any one do it? No. He's pretty much an evil genius and I think we buy that.

There's the psychotic billionaire who decided to become a vigilante in the first place, and the even more deranged old man who thought, "This could work," and proceeded to support and enable him.

People who did impossible things in real life often are crazy enough to think, "This could work."

The problem with Rises is that TDK made people think the world of the story was so very realistic, and then Rises didn't deliver on a realistic world that the series had never actually promised us. I can accept that TDKR was hard to embrace in that way, but let's not pretend that it is somehow the sole and egregious trespasser.

I never said Batman Begins or TDK were perfect, but TDKR does it much more frequently and flagrantly. Why go even go to the bother of showing us how badly Wayne was debilitated, if you're going to give the illusion of a believable remedy?

The storytelling in the series was, actually, very consistent. But your expectations were not. That's not unreasonable, but it's important to identify.

What more can I say, other than to point out another half-dozen things which just felt sloppy? For starters, why didn't the villains just shoot the truck with the nuclear device on it, with the tumblers? Afraid the nuke might go off?

One of the great moments of TDK was when the Joker laughed at Batman about leaving the fate of Gotham up the outcome of a "fist fight with you." That really drove home the fact that you can't stop crime by just beating the shit out of criminals. It's much more complicated, and Batman never saw the turn coming. But the fact that Batman has to beat the shit out of Bane to get redeemed really made it feel like we're going backwards.

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Explain to me how you think Two Face is realistic.

People get burned all the time out in the real world. Just look at the Islamic world and Saudi Arabia, that general area. People get lit on fire all the time. They don't all survive but some people do. Also look at the women who have acid thrown in their faces. They survive.

Harvey Dent was dead for some reason in this movie, I don't remember how/why, so he must not have lasted too long leaving his burn wound uncovered/unrepaired.

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People get burned all the time out in the real world. Just look at the Islamic world and Saudi Arabia, that general area. People get lit on fire all the time. They don't all survive but some people do. Also look at the women who have acid thrown in their faces. They survive.

Harvey Dent was dead for some reason in this movie, I don't remember how/why, so he must not have lasted too long leaving his burn wound uncovered/unrepaired.

Harvey's burn was not a normal burn. His face, along with his body, was lying in gasoline when the fire erupted. Explain how someone can do that, and a few days later being walking around with half his face with no skin or muscle, making conversation as if nothing ever happened.

And no, your conclusion is wrong, because Batman killed Harvey. He didn't die because of his burn.

The point I'm making is that it is ridiculous to hold these movies to any standard of realism. They're comic book movies.

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Harvey's burn was not a normal burn. His face, along with his body, was lying in gasoline when the fire erupted. Explain how someone can do that, and a few days later being walking around with half his face with no skin or muscle, making conversation as if nothing ever happened.

I don't think it's impossible. For starters, he couldn't use the left side of his face; remember when he went into the cop bar to figure out who the other cop was who was on the take? He took a drink and the alcohol dribbled out the left side of his mouth because he couldn't use it. And it's not like he wasn't in pain or actually using that side of his face. Also, while the burns were bad, Batman put the fire out quickly, so it could've been a lot worse. It's not the most believable part of the movie, but it's not impossible (not knowing anything much about biology or medicine or anything).

I missed the part where the B-Man iced Two-Face. Oh well. :-(

At the end of the movie, where Two-Face had Gordon's family hostage, Two-Face shot Batman first. Batman went down, either stunned or faking it, then Two-Face talked for a while and flipped his coin, about to shoot Gordon's son. Batman jumped, grabbed Two-Face, and they both went over the side of the building. It didn't say exactly how Two-Face died, other than that he died from the fall.

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I would argue, are all these things, really impossible?

Yes. They are impossible, with current technology and obeying the laws of physics of the real world. Which is why Nolan's trilogy has taken place in a world that is different from ours. Not the real world. Nolan himself described it as a "heightened" version of our reality.

What is so logistically impossible about the Joker's attack?

The cops and the army/National Guard are sweeping the bridges and tunnels as well as orchestrating a mass evacuation of the city, and no one notices a mountain of explosives on the only two ferries carrying people across? I buy the premise, in Gotham City, a Bastion of Corruption and Incompetence. In reality? Simply couldn't happen.

People who did impossible things in real life often are crazy enough to think, "This could work."

Sure, if you wanna climb a mountain, or invent a more efficient car, or develop nuclear fusion. Not if you want to parade the streets in a mask beating up thugs.

I never said Batman Begins or TDK were perfect, but TDKR does it much more frequently and flagrantly.

I will agree that TDKR amps it up from Batman Begins, but it's a bigger story and a bigger movie, and I bought into it.

One of the great moments of TDK was when the Joker laughed at Batman about leaving the fate of Gotham up the outcome of a "fist fight with you." That really drove home the fact that you can't stop crime by just beating the shit out of criminals. It's much more complicated, and Batman never saw the turn coming. But the fact that Batman has to beat the shit out of Bane to get redeemed really made it feel like we're going backwards.

TDKR was a movie about the death of Batman, and the resurrection of Bruce Wayne. What's great about TDKR, I thought, was how it showed Wayne had forgotten what Batman was about. He did precisely what you said, and went in half-cocked looking for a fist-fight rather than playing the intelligent hero, rather than being the world's greatest detective. The point was that the character was going backwards, which I thought the movie communicated well.

At the end of the day, he lost the fight with Bane. He lost the fist-fight. But he wasn't the endgame. He was just the symbol, just the distraction. Blake and Selina getting everyone off the island, Lucius, Miranda and Gordon disarming the nuke, the police and people of Gotham overthrowing the mercenaries, that was the plan. That was a big picture strategy, not a fist fight, and that was a worthy plan for Batman. And save for Talia's betrayal, it might have succeeded. Then we had our gushy heroic self-sacrifice moment.

I don't think it's impossible. For starters, he couldn't use the left side of his face; remember when he went into the cop bar to figure out who the other cop was who was on the take? He took a drink and the alcohol dribbled out the left side of his mouth because he couldn't use it. And it's not like he wasn't in pain or actually using that side of his face. Also, while the burns were bad, Batman put the fire out quickly, so it could've been a lot worse. It's not the most believable part of the movie, but it's not impossible (not knowing anything much about biology or medicine or anything).

In real life, that's not possible. But in the movie, it felt possible. But it's not something that is possible in our reality. But that's what TDK was. It's just close enough to reality that we believe it.

At the end of the movie, where Two-Face had Gordon's family hostage, Two-Face shot Batman first. Batman went down, either stunned or faking it, then Two-Face talked for a while and flipped his coin, about to shoot Gordon's son. Batman jumped, grabbed Two-Face, and they both went over the side of the building. It didn't say exactly how Two-Face died, other than that he died from the fall.

If he died from being pushed off a ledge, then the guy who did the pushing killed him. I think that's pretty straightforward. Batman even says it himself, "The Joker won." Because he realized that the Joker had gotten him to break his one rule and kill a man, exactly as he said he would.

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The point I'm making is that it is ridiculous to hold these movies to any standard of realism. They're comic book movies.

I can't emphasize this enough.

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If he died from being pushed off a ledge, then the guy who did the pushing killed him. I think that's pretty straightforward. Batman even says it himself, "The Joker won." Because he realized that the Joker had gotten him to break his one rule and kill a man, exactly as he said he would.

Oh, I know that. I was just trying to describe the death to Brandon Strader, who didn't remember it. Yes, Batman killed him, though we don't know exactly what caused his death more specifically than "he fell" (eg. did his neck break? did he get impaled on something? etc.)

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Yes. They are impossible, with current technology and obeying the laws of physics of the real world. Which is why Nolan's trilogy has taken place in a world that is different from ours. Not the real world. Nolan himself described it as a "heightened" version of our reality.

Fair enough, although, I bet someone could do the cape thing, and a few others.

The cops and the army/National Guard are sweeping the bridges and tunnels as well as orchestrating a mass evacuation of the city, and no one notices a mountain of explosives on the only two ferries carrying people across? I buy the premise, in Gotham City, a Bastion of Corruption and Incompetence. In reality? Simply couldn't happen.

I think it's unfair to say it couldn't happen in reality, but let's agree to disagree. Although a more clever way of hiding the explosives in the ships would probably be necessary.

At the end of the day, he lost the fight with Bane. He lost the fist-fight. But he wasn't the endgame. He was just the symbol, just the distraction. Blake and Selina getting everyone off the island, Lucius, Miranda and Gordon disarming the nuke, the police and people of Gotham overthrowing the mercenaries, that was the plan. That was a big picture strategy, not a fist fight, and that was a worthy plan for Batman. And save for Talia's betrayal, it might have succeeded. Then we had our gushy heroic self-sacrifice moment.

Would it have made more sense for Batman to just use some device to incapacitate Bane (since he doesn't kill, and he needed info out of Bane), to save time, instead of brawling with him? It's a movie I get it, it wouldn't have felt as rewarding to see Batman shoot him. But again, Joker's words...

Also, Batman thought he could get Bane to reveal who had the detonator by just yelling at him after beating him up. Kind of like his failed interrogation scene with the Joker in TDK... Torture doesn't always work.

Now that you mention it, I couldn't buy into the whole getting people off the island ploy. There simply wasn't enough time to get clear of something that had an estimated 5-6 mile blast radius, and then there's subsequent fallout. Getting across the bridge or few thousand people into tunnels in time is a pittance compared to the millions who would die. Better than nothing yes, but not exactly worthy of Batman, IMHO.

If he died from being pushed off a ledge, then the guy who did the pushing killed him. I think that's pretty straightforward. Batman even says it himself, "The Joker won." Because he realized that the Joker had gotten him to break his one rule and kill a man, exactly as he said he would.

Yeah, this was semi-ambiguous at the end of TDK. Even with Dent's funeral, it wasn't 100% clear if in the next Batman we'd see Dent wake up in Arkham or something. But the start of TDKR affirmed it.

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If you at all paid attention to the movie, Bruce Wayne's return had nothing to do with "Batman saving Gotham". He went back to give everyone that shining hope in the sky that they needed to save their city.

Think of the scene where he showed up in The Bat and just threw a couple bullets at the tanks. He wasn't intending to destroy them or Bane's followers. He showed up merely to give the police morale. They were walking to their death hesitantly; shortly after, they ran in guns blazing.

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If you at all paid attention to the movie, Bruce Wayne's return had nothing to do with "Batman saving Gotham". He went back to give everyone that shining hope in the sky that they needed to save their city.

Think of the scene where he showed up in The Bat and just threw a couple bullets at the tanks. He wasn't intending to destroy them or Bane's followers. He showed up merely to give the police morale. They were walking to their death hesitantly; shortly after, they ran in guns blazing.

You're forgetting the fact that Bane could've detonated the device at any time. It wasn't until Batman returned and had Gordon plant the signal jammer, was anyone able to make a move without risking the bomb going off.

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You're forgetting the fact that Bane could've detonated the device at any time. It wasn't until Batman returned and had Gordon plant the signal jammer, was anyone able to make a move without risking the bomb going off.

You do realize you're arguing my point, right?

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Fair enough, although, I bet someone could do the cape thing, and a few others.

I thought this was big news, but I guess not everyone heard it.

ScienceDaily: Students Discover Batman's Cape Gliding Technique Is Fatally Flawed

Just to speak to what I mean about the reality of the movie being different from the real world. The cape was based on actual technology being developed in real life, but its application in the film isn't technically feasible.

I think we're just divided along the line of fully buying into the premise or not.

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