How to get samples/synths to "melt" into the mix.

[Meteo Xavier]

I posted this on KVR because I didn't want to bother OCR people, but I keep forgetting KVR's forum is surprisingly useless, so I'm trying again here.

I've been trying to figure this out for years and to date, no one has given me a straight answer on it - I'm trying to learn how to get my samples occurring in the mix to sound more naturally occurring and more, ugh, "professional" sounding. It seems to me like all my sounds have too much punch in the mix and often do not leave the soundscape in the natural-sounding way. I thought, for a long time, the answer was a Transient Designer, but having gotten the one from Komplete 8, I can see that is not the answer to it. It only seems to work on drums anyway.

Everywhere I listen, even to the old Super Nintendo tracks, it seems to me like there is this microscopic amount of added attack and release on the transients that makes it so that each PCM sample comes in and leaves without sounding too much like an obvious sample. It seems like everyone knows how to do it but me - what am I missing?

In the years I've been trying to figure it out, I've heard the answer is in:

* Compression

* Reverb

* EQ

* Transient VSTs

* ADSR Envelopes (which, no, it's not. I've already tried it and it comes out sounding ridiculous most of the time)

* The Mixing (well no shit, WHERE is it in the mixing? You can't solve a specific problem with a general answer like that).

Compressors still might be what I need to look into, but so far, I still haven't found what it is I'm looking for. Can anyone help me out?

I'll post some examples when I get home. Thank you!

[avaris]

Can you post a good and bad example of what you are referring to? Otherwise it can be a little difficult to "hear" where you are coming from.

COMPOSITION:

Velocity, Timing, ModWheel, Automation (all little varients)

MIXING:

Grouping (also correctly grouping elements to "glue" them together)

That is what I have found works.

[Meteo Xavier]

Most of my "bad" examples might be in my Meteocrity album, but, again, I'll post them once I get home. My means right now are text-based and not great for pulling links and such.

[ectogemia]

Meteo, just open the sample in an audio editor and add a very small amount of fade in and fade out?

Can you post a good and bad example of what you are referring to? Otherwise it can be a little difficult to "hear" where you are coming from.

COMPOSITION:

Velocity, Timing, ModWheel, Automation (all little varients)

MIXING:

Grouping (also correctly grouping elements to "glue" them together)

That is what I have found works.

I'm modwheel-retarded. What is it and how does one utilize it?

Also about grouping, I've been busing things more and more lately for automation or layering convenience, but what specific mixing technique are you referring to? Can you give me an example of "gluing" and how to do it?

[Rozovian]

If I'm understanding the question correctly, it's timbre and levels first, and effects second. You use compressors and eq and stuff to adjust the sounds so they go well together in the mix, but you first and foremost pick/tweak sounds that sound good together.

[Yoozer]

I'm modwheel-retarded. What is it and how does one utilize it?

It's just another slider, just one that happens to be available on a lot of keyboards and synthesizers, and it can control lots of things instead of just one thing. It's commonly used to add vibrato, so if you ever wanted those 80s brass sounds with a little tremolo - that's done with a modwheel.

If I'm understanding the question correctly, it's timbre and levels first, and effects second.

ding ding ding winner.

[Meteo Xavier]

I don't know how I keep doing this, but somehow I'm not being clear about what I'm saying.

It's not the instruments/arrangements/frequencies, etc. not all fitting in together in the soundscape I'm talking about, it's the way the sounds themselves COME IN and OUT as they play. I keep feeling like mine almost always have too much PUNCH in them and then don't leave in a way that seems right to me. This makes it difficult for me to variate my arrangements and add, like, a short harp or string arpeggiation on the side to compliment the melody because I can't seem to get them to come in and then leave without it sounding awkward.

Then again, maybe I'm just insane and hearing things that aren't there. I don't know, it's very difficult for me to figure this stuff out by myself.

Anyway, here are my examples:

BAD:

http://meteoxavier.bandcamp.com/album/meteocrity-vol-1 - basically #15-18 are the best examples I can think of for what I wish could melt in better. They have too much punch in them I feel and leave awkwardly making it seem like the soundscape is empty without them.

GOOD

These two are probably the best examples of similar samples I have, although the .PSF and .SPC files would illustrate them even better, and they seem have theirs blended in better, particularly that synth brass lead in the Valkyrie Profile track. Sure the mixes themselves aren't great in either, but they still have the samples actually coming in and out better and I'm trying to learn how to do that - if you can do in a SNES game, I'm sure I can do it too.

What do you think? Have I just gone insane and hearing things that aren't there, or what?

[theshaggyfreak]

Some things to try...

1. Sometimes a particular synth is just too loud. If something is sticking out, try to dial back the volume level first.

2. Try working with low pass and high pass filters. See if you can carve out whatever frequencies are overpowering the mix.

3. Insert a short reverb onto the the channel of that synth. This will give it a sense of space. A bit of delay can help with this too.

4. If you're still getting some frequencies poking out, work with EQ and compression to tame them.

That's generally the work flow I use for mixing most instruments together.

[Moseph]

Can't listen to the samples since I'm on a Kindle right now, but I've successfully used multiband compression to help deal with samples sticking out. I'd need to check the project to be certain, but I think what I was doing was compressing and boosting the sampled instrument's treble and bass while the midrange was left alone or maybe even expanded a bit. The idea is to make the frequency ranges scale at different rates when the overall level changes so that you get a little bit messier of a sound that doesn't stick out so much.

[Meteo Xavier]

...

It's not the instruments/arrangements/frequencies, etc. not all fitting in together in the soundscape I'm talking about, it's the way the sounds themselves COME IN and OUT as they play.

Really not trying to be rude there, but, again, I'm not talking about frequencies. I'm asking if there is a mixing effect or technique that softens the transients in all the instruments in a mix without adding real attack and release to stretch out the sounds - because I keep hearing one but no one seems to know what I'm talking about.

Don't mean to be obnoxious, but this happens everytime I ask on it. Am I just asking a silly question or why is this difficult?

[theshaggyfreak]

...

Really not trying to be rude there, but, again, I'm not talking about frequencies. I'm asking if there is a mixing effect or technique that softens the transients in all the instruments in a mix without adding real attack and release to stretch out the sounds - because I keep hearing one but no one seems to know what I'm talking about.

Don't mean to be obnoxious, but this happens everytime I ask on it. Am I just asking a silly question or why is this difficult?

Actually, you really are talking about frequencies and amplitude. The transient may indeed just be a certain set of frequencies that are poking out. So, EQ and filters can work there. Otherwise, you need to look at using a compressor, gate or limiter to bring down the amplitude of the transient itself.

These are things that should be looked at on an individual track level first. Doing these things after the fact is more for getting things to gel together. You could certainly squash things in the final mix to tame transients but I don't think it'll give you the results you're looking for.

After listening to the examples you gave, these things are what I feel would work best. I really do understand what you're trying to say but I think you need to look at the answer differently.

[Rozovian]

Concerning "out", how about timing? The timing of when an instrument exits. Line it up with when a new instrument enters so its exit is masked by this new attention-grabbing thing.

Concerning "in", how about screwing with the envelopes? If you want to reduce the attack of an instrument, consider that you're screwing with the wrong envelope. Maybe you should be screwing with the amplitude envelope instead of the filter envelope. Maybe you shouldn't be screwing with attack and release, but with sustain and/or decay. All that is easy in synths. As for samples, maybe you should start them after the transient, or open them up in an audio editor and adjust it there. afaik, old game samples weren't particularly dynamic, so they wouldn't have the transients that modern stuff has.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Dude, you HAVE TRANSIENT MASTER. It's not just for drums.

Turn down the Attack knob. If it doesn't fix the issue, add another one onto it. Keep doing that until you actually hear an effect.

You're asking for something that softens transients, and you freakin BOUGHT KOMPLETE for it, and now you're complaining it doesn't do the job? Ever wonder if you're just not using it right? :/

Truth to be told, you're probably not going to be able to do it, because it requires a # of Guitar Rig instances the same as the # of instruments you want to soften.

Are you Transient Mastering the ACTUAL MASTER track?

That's like wanting to add reverb to a guitar so you put it on the master.

[Level 99]

Dude, you HAVE TRANSIENT MASTER. It's not just for drums.

Turn down the Attack knob. If it doesn't fix the issue, add another one onto it. Keep doing that until you actually hear an effect.

You're asking for something that softens transients, and you freakin BOUGHT KOMPLETE for it, and now you're complaining it doesn't do the job? Ever wonder if you're just not using it right? :/

[ectogemia]

I lol'd. 10CHAR10CHARILOVE10CHAR

[Meteo Xavier]

Actually, you really are talking about frequencies and amplitude. The transient may indeed just be a certain set of frequencies that are poking out. So, EQ and filters can work there. Otherwise, you need to look at using a compressor, gate or limiter to bring down the amplitude of the transient itself.

These are things that should be looked at on an individual track level first. Doing these things after the fact is more for getting things to gel together. You could certainly squash things in the final mix to tame transients but I don't think it'll give you the results you're looking for.

After listening to the examples you gave, these things are what I feel would work best. I really do understand what you're trying to say but I think you need to look at the answer differently.

At this point, I'm pretty much accepting I've been running a fool's errand for years and that I have been chasing the wrong thing. I even started hearing it last night and I've been afraid to respond here since. It's a heavy thing to admit you've been questing for nothing for a long period of time.

It stems from an even longer problem I've been having in just getting my tracks to sound more professionally "fluid". I keep feeling like all my mixes, no matter what I do or how many velocities or automations and such I use, always come out sounding very stiff in the mix and noticeably different than everyone else's. I can't tell if I'm being criticizing myself too hard on that or if I'm really doing it or not. Again, no one's ever really been able to give me a straight answer there. I hear "use compression, derp", "use reverb, derp", "use velocities, derp", "use your ears, derp", etc. in very, stupidly simple responses without any better idea what to use inside them to do what with and video tutorials I find almost as useless.

What I almost never see are people who post their settings for such devices to get what they want out of them.

It's a very frustrating business if you're not one of those people who just magically tune in to this shit.

[zircon]

No one is able to give you specific settings because most tools are entirely dependent on the source material and the mix. That's just how it is. A compressor setting that works for MY acoustic guitar might not work for yours, due to different recordings, different mixes, different context. If you have specific questions about specific mixes that's another thing entirely.

[ectogemia]

Welp, on that note, I have a specific question. What exactly are we talking about, and what is a general solution to the problem? When would this problem arise?

For my general mixing knowledge...

[Meteo Xavier]

Now it's looking like the problem was never really there to begin with - which is awesome except I wasted years trying to fix something that never was.

[Moseph]

Does this sound more like what you're going for?

Exploring the Temporal Lobe With a Bomb in My Mouth (Edit)

If people are willing to do it (and I would be, at least), I think the most helpful thing for you would be if you could post the audio stems for one of your tracks, let us mix them ourselves, and if any of our mixes seem to solve the problems you've been having, we can show you exactly what we did in the mix.

[Rozovian]

The obvious problem with stems being that we can't actually go and screw with the settings of the source samples/patches, but it might help with the mixing side of things.

[ShrackAttack]

Meteo, I tend to think/hope stuff like this is (for the most part) only in your head. I believe most people can be over critical of their own music to a point. I know I still do this and I also have complained in the past about tracks I wrote that just felt too stiff, as if every instrument just stuck out too much. There's certain songs that just don't seem to "have" it and they don't really feel like music, at least not to the person who wrote it. It's like there is some secret knowledge you somehow haven't figured out, but most everyone else already seems to know. So I feel your pain . However, I still haven't come to a definite conclusion if it is at least partially real or just 100% in my head either.

This will be a pain in the ass, but you may want to try finding a good example of what you want to imitate as far as the transients go and literally try to remake that piece 100%. Spend an entire week on it if you have too adjusting every little thing until it is exact and figure out what you did.

Also for certain samples that actually have dynamics, try keeping the velocity super low, but raise the volume so it balances out. It will usually keep the soft transient you're going for but still have it stand out in the mix.

On a similar note, I'm still trying to find a piano sound/setup that I just really like. Literally everything I use almost always sounds too harsh to my ears and I can't seem to get the full piano sound I want either. I've been mainly using EWQL pianos

[Moseph]

Also for certain samples that actually have dynamics, try keeping the velocity super low, but raise the volume so it balances out. It will usually keep the soft transient you're going for but still have it stand out in the mix.

Speaking of this, I often link a low-pass filter to my expression/volume automation so that when a sound gets softer, it also gets more muffled. (Specifically, I do this with VSL instruments because the VSL sampler makes it really easy to set up.)

Meteo, I'm not sure whether this addresses your issue or not, but the thing I'm hearing in the mixes you linked that makes the instruments sound -- I don't know, too substantial -- is I think more a stereo imaging/illusion of depth thing than a transient/ADSR thing. It doesn't sound like the instruments are in a real acoustic space; it sounds like there're all the same distance from me and all playing through guitar amps that are pointed at me. My thought on this is to maybe try playing with stereo spread plugins and carefully controlling the stereo spread on different frequency ranges (e.g. bass stereo could be less wide than the treble range). I'd really have to play around with it myself to see for sure what would work.

[SnappleMan]

From my experience it all comes down to the most basic of mixing tools: volume, panning, EQ. Worrying about transients and whatever else is fine once you get into the real details of it all, but you get your basic mix done with just those 3 essential tools.

When you go into ADSR editing you're really working on the timbre of the sound and that should be mostly taken care of before you even begin to get "into the mix". As stated before in this thread, the key is in choosing the right sounds before you start mixing.

Also you have to be able to listen to the mix without bias towards that which you're trying to solve. If you focus on the synths then they'll always be either too loud or too soft or too SOMETHING other than "right". So learn to take yourself away from focusing and start listening to the entire picture.

[avaris]

Ok Meteo, listened to the examples. Two big things jump out to me:

1. Transitions, or lack there of (in your tracks it just feels like, oh hey there is a new sound in here; and oh yeah this sound was just dropped. It makes the adding/subtracting of sounds and parts feel jarring)

Some good tutorials w/ audio examples:

http://audio.tutsplus.com/tutorials/arrangement/arrangement-tips-and-tricks-fills-and-transitions/

http://audio.tutsplus.com/tutorials/arrangement/arrangement-tips-and-tricks-part-2-automation/?search_index=10

2. The sounds themselves, mainly the realistic instruments sound a little too robotic. This makes them stick out in a bad way. (that added to the lack of transitions makes your example songs focus the listeners attention in an area that is strong)

Some quick tutorials on improving the composition and feel of natural instruments:

http://audio.tutsplus.com/tutorials/production/how-to-achieve-realistic-spatial-imaging-in-cubase-using-kontakt/?search_index=12

http://audio.tutsplus.com/tutorials/production/quick-tip-getting-realism-in-orchestral-music/?search_index=16

http://audio.tutsplus.com/tutorials/mixing-mastering/an-introduction-to-3d-mixing/

Also anything by this dude:

http://audio.tutsplus.com/author/george-strezov/

I hope those help a little bit. There isn't just one trick to solve your problem. It is a multitude of smaller problems adding up to create a larger glaring one.