Knight'n'Grail(C64) vs Ninja Gaiden (XBOX) - Ninjan graali

[Eino Keskitalo]

This was my piece from KNGI Game Duels EP vol.1, that I'm touching up for OCR submission.

new wip:

  https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lms8dwgym9g5rguuzhcz6/eino_keskitalo_-_ninjan_graali-20240621-wip.mp3?rlkey=gzbxdzf4uneebvnhtp9boh3fd&st=94xm9v53&dl=0

 

Sources:

• Aquaduct from Ninja Gaiden (Xbox):
• Title Screen from Knight 'n' Grail (C64): https://haxel.bandcamp.com/track/title-screen
• Ghost Castle from Knight 'n' Grail (C64): https://haxel.bandcamp.com/track/ghost-castle

Source breakdown:

• The arpeggio from Ghost Castle plays almost throughout
• The two-note figure that plays in Aquaduct 0:00-0:38 is played 0:00-1:00 (though in 6/8 and 7/8 instead of 4/4)
• Dropping the bass to C# in Aquaduct at 0:20 is reflected at 0:45-1:00 (although the bass does come back to D# in the arrangement before going back to C#)
• The melody from Title Screen plays at 0:28-1:00
• The melody from Ghost Castle at 0:47-> is played in the background at 0:45-1:00
• Aqueduct 0:39-> is approximated at 1:16-2:07
• The two-note figure from Aquaduct plays at 2:07-2:38
• The melody from Ghost Castle is played from 2:07-> The bass also follows Ghost Castle chord changes.

Old:

Current WIP (2013-03-09)

Changes done since the EP version:

• better mixing
• more attention to stereo image
• unbusify, define parts better
• spice up the bass a bit
• rename the piece twice

A little of each seems to have done a lot. It's amazing how much chipping away at levels and EQ does. It did take me hours and hours though!

--Eino

Edited June 21 by Eino Keskitalo
new wip

[Eino Keskitalo]

I've worked more on levels, EQ and mixing in general. Now I don't know what to do to the thing anymore, so I'd really appreciate some feedback.

Current WIP here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ayajmfkfdz3y5jk/eino_keskitalo-kningjan_style_swordplay-20130209.mp3

When comparing to other pieces, it seems to lack impact. On the other hand, it is fairly ambientsy, so I'm not sure if I should be concerned with that.

--Eino

[Guifrog]

Maybe turn down the mids a lil' bit? Otherwise, I think it sounds fine overall!

Yea, ambientsy in a good way.

[Eino Keskitalo]

Maybe turn down the mids a lil' bit?

I'd never thought of that myself. I tweaked the overall middle EQ a bit and it seems it balanced the mixing quite amazingly. Thank you!

Apart from re-renaming the piece, I've given it round of polish, most notably the stereo image, and I think I'm finished. Which probably means it needs a tweak or two, but a mod review should help spotting those. Here we go!

Kningjan Swordstyle final candidate 1

--Eino

[Eino Keskitalo]

Bumpupdate, some additional bass filtering. Tried to make the long bass notes less intense.

Final candidate 2 here

--Eino

[Eino Keskitalo]

I got a comment about how static the bass is in the beginning, and I tried to address it by EQ:ing it down a bit more early on so it's not as prominent on bass-heavy systems. Let me know if it sounds strange.

here

--Eino

[Rozovian]

Argh, multiple unknown sources!

It might just be my ears, but the whole thing sounds a little too loud, pushed a bit too hard, a bit too bright and harsh. This is especially bothersome towards the end when there's a lot going on.

There's an oddly loud pad at 1:21. I'd say you've got a few mixing fixes left. The harmonies there are quite weird, but I think that only fits the mood of the track. Mostly. There's a few instances of the bass and the chords not being a good fit, and I'm not getting a good grasp of where in that part I am at any given moment. It's like the wrong chords are the wrong length, as if you had taken lessons from a 2009 HoboKa. It might work to just clean up the levels and make the rhythm a bit more obvious over the chords, but it's possible you need to screw with the writing a bit too. Hard to say.

I can clearly hear the ostinato from the first part of KnG. I can hear what I assume are parts from the NG source around 1:40, the two and three note arpeggio things. I'm not finding the title theme from KnG. Am I just being source-deaf or is it hiding?

The rhythm is weird. I get that it's a 6/4 thing going, but there's plenty of odd transitions and things that don't flow quite right.

I'm not quite feeling this track. It's too thick to get a good grip of. There's nothing to really drive the track, so it kind'a just pulls the listener along without a clear idea of where it's going.

Idunno, direction is probably the main problem, source might be a problem (or I'm having one of those source-deaf days), and it's a bit too loud for its own good. imo, at least.

/mr

[Eino Keskitalo]

Many thanks for the mod review! I'll digest it and return to work on the piece once I'll handle in my Gunstar Heroes mix. I should've provided a source breakdown, it's one of those cases where I thought it's all obvious, but if I'd thought twice it would've been obvious it wasn't obvious at all. For instance, the title theme lead is there (in the first minute), but it's transposed from the original! And. indeed, the sources are likely to be unfamiliar to almost everyone. Anyway, I'll get back to this.

--Eino

[Eino Keskitalo]

release candidate 3: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fkyeng2xdam9cm8es7uxw/eino_keskitalo_-_ninjan_graali-20230628-rc3.mp3?dl=0&rlkey=1knf2y1pz1fdliivh0osv7eei

Sources:

• Aquaduct from Ninja Gaiden (Xbox):
• Title Screen from Knight 'n' Grail (C64): https://haxel.bandcamp.com/track/title-screen
• Ghost Castle from Knight 'n' Grail (C64): https://haxel.bandcamp.com/track/ghost-castle

Source breakdown:

• The arpeggio from Ghost Castle plays almost throughout
• The two-note figure that plays in Aquaduct 0:00-0:38 is played 0:00-1:00 (though in 6/8 and 7/8 instead of 4/4)
• Dropping the bass to C# in Aquaduct at 0:20 is reflected at 0:45-1:00 (although the bass does come back to D# in the arrangement before going back to C#)
• The melody from Title Screen plays at 0:28-1:00
• The melody from Ghost Castle at 0:47-> is played in the background at 0:45-1:00
• Aqueduct 0:39-> is approximated at 1:16-2:07
• The two-note figure from Aquaduct plays at 2:07-2:38
• The melody from Ghost Castle is played from 2:07-> The bass also follows Ghost Castle chord changes.

[Eino Keskitalo]

Got some great feedback from the panel: https://ocremix.org/community/topic/52388-no-ninja-gaiden-xbox-knight-n-grail-ninjan-graali/#comment-861883

Here's the new WIP where I've tired to: mix it a bit better, adjust pitch of some parts an octave down, etc. Didn't touch the structure at least yet. It still needs more unbusyfying, but it's getting there.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/pwaofg1s3gc0hb5196p1m/eino_keskitalo_-_ninjan_graali-20240410-wip.mp3?rlkey=a23jfsugqs7i58r3nzqykyyx4&dl=0

[Dj Mokram]

Opening both the 2012 and 2024 versions side by side in an audio editor, you can tell from the waveform data alone how much extra effort had been poured into this remix for over a decade. Let's listen! ?

On the prod aspect of things, I ran analysis with a Blackman-Harris function, both 128 and 512bins on linear and logarithmic scale, to positive results. Spectrum analysis didn't make me fall off my camel either, you've got nice stereo separation and likewise no alarming RMS. However I counted more than a 150 clipped samples throughout, which might be related to that enthusiastic -12.23db LUFS integrated with a 6LU loudness range (accounting for DC offset as well). Either slightly limit your master bus output just to be safe, or keep rocking the '0db sample peak' lifestyle. Up to you. ?

Arrangement-wise, there's been massive improvements in texture, sound choices, dynamics and overall balance from your 2012 original, pioneering mashup. Melodies are less muted, the mix sounds clearer throughout and the soundscape is so much fuller now. Imho, your greatest success here is instilling new life and movement into the piece, making this revision much more engaging to listen to. 
Case in point the first section from 0:15 to 1:00, where the industrial percussions have increased in presence and intensity compared to the 2012 version. But conversely, the source's melody is also more prominent and distinct during that part, which creates an interesting contrast, rather than an irritating dichotomy. The second section from 1:15 has undergone a shocking transformation, where the melodic material used to timidly defer to the classic Roland drum kit, but is now emboldened and confidently riding shotgun with the rhythmic bed from 1:32 to 2:05, before the eerie, melancholic twist of the original remix metamorphoses into an array of decisive stabs complemented by surgical percussion hits, which now makes the 2:05-2:38 section hugely more climactic. As for the ending section from 2:40 onward, I applaud the pivotal choice to swap instruments for the lead which confers it an exotic yet contemporary quality, meshing beautifully with the thunderous drums in this dreamy yet tangible soundscape.?

There's a lot of subtlety and detail about this arrangement that people hopefully will notice and appreciate. Like in spite of the whole remix being centered around a repeating leitmotif and written with a singular sound palette, you can distinguish the theme associated with each source in relation to its time period and cultural inclination. Which to this day remains a testament to your ability as an arranger to assimilate material from different sources, then interpret them with both cohesiveness and distinction. I can still revell in the care that went into creating this ambient/industrial tribute with delightful Deus Ex influences, yet I also realize that such flavor might not suit everyone's tastes, and might be looked down upon in some leet circles...

In any case, it's wonderful to see you revisit and reinvigorate this old work in such an elegant fashion, so many years later. I can only commend your diligence and consistency in the pursuit of this ideal, in the spirit of Ryu Hayabusa. May this labour of love capture the judges' hearts and ears, just as it captured mine back on Game Duels. This truly made my day, thanks for sharing this Eino. ?✨

[Eino Keskitalo]

Thanks a lot @Dj Mokram I really appreciated that 😸It's a blast from the past isn't it? Great analysis and very generous and kind. I guess I should pay attention to the mastering/clipping. I'll give that a look.

I have a new WIP but it's not quite finished towards the end: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lms8dwgym9g5rguuzhcz6/eino_keskitalo_-_ninjan_graali-20240621-wip.mp3?rlkey=gzbxdzf4uneebvnhtp9boh3fd&st=94xm9v53&dl=0

After the judge feedback I think I've fixed the bass level and reduced mix clutter & brought leads to the front better. I extended the end to the point where I think it doesn't feel like it ends prematurely. I'm intending to work on the last 8 or 16 bars (of 7/4) so it's less copy-paste and has more variety, and I was thinking of adding a coda of the intro arpeggio.

[pixelseph]

Hey Eino!

This piece has a real vibe going. Glad I checked out the sources before diving in, because there’s a lot of attention being paid to the ostinato figure from Ghost Castle working over the top of everything else. I’m in earbuds at the moment, though everything feels balanced (width, frequencies, etc.)

I do think the ending needs to be stronger, especially for how much the final minute is setting it up. If it were me, I’d do that final melodic figure again with just some chord/bass stabs on the downbeats. Happy to give this one another listen after you’ve tinkered with the ideas you mentioned above, though!

You’ve got a really good track here, won’t be surprised to see this one hit the panel soon. 🤘

Edited June 22 by pixelseph