Tropes vs. Women / #GamerGate Conspiracies

[MC Final Sigma]

How is it voluntary when you are clearly implying that it should be the societal norm, with clear pressure put on individuals? And please, don't bring up racism, because a) you don't understand it, and we aren't talking about it.

It should be the societal norm because men and women should have equal rights. Everyone should voluntarily come to this conclusion.

And as to racism and sexism, explain to me the difference, please. Why is saying one group of people are naturally inferior (or "separate but equal?") different from saying another group is naturally inferior, etc.?

[EC2151]

It should be the societal norm because men and women should have equal rights. Everyone should voluntarily come to this conclusion.

Where in your definition of "rights" is the clause "women must always be portrayed as equal to men in fiction and vice versa"? That is what we're talking about, right?

Enumerate for me these applicable rights completely, please. Plus points if you tell me where said rights come from.

Edited March 11, 2013 by EC2151

[Dexie]

It's still Zelda being made powerless, and her only salvation comes from a man. It's almost more reprehensible because of Zelda's history as a damsel and the fact that even the strongest woman can't save herself.

Possession, by the way, is as disempowering as you can get, because you can't even control your own body. Fun fact: no male is ever possessed in the Zelda universe. The closest we ever get is impersonations of the King of Hyrule in MC, but it's established that he's not actually possessed, he's locked away in the basement. For women, though, we have Nabooru in OoT, Zelda in Tp and ST, and Impa, Nayru, AND Ambi in OoA... There may be more, I'll have to think on it.

Her only salvation isn't from a man. It's from a man AND a woman. Midna had just as much to do with saving Zelda (If not more!) as Link did.

I'm going to have to disagree with your fun fact, too. Linebeck was possessed by Bellum in Phantom Hourglass, and I'm pretty sure there's been at least one other example elsewhere in the series.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Dexie

[Brandon Strader]

I dunno, I did ask a woman why she didn't work in a steel mill, and here was the conversation:

Me:

Hey, have you ever considered working in a steel mill?

Woman:

Haha no

Me:

Any particular reason? I'm just curious!

Woman:

Not my cup of tea

Me:

Too dangerous, or?

Woman:

Not into that type of work . Why do you ask?

Me:

I was just curious! It's interesting to me. Were you ever interested in working at, maybe, a coal plant or mine?

Maybe in construction?

Woman:

No way. I'm not into physical jobs that would require me to become dirty.

I would be the person who held the stop sign at construction. But I would never do construction

[MC Final Sigma]

Her only hope isn't from a man. It's from a man AND a woman. Midna had just as much to do with saving Zelda (If not more!) as Link did.

I'm going to have to disagree with your fun fact, too. Linebeck was possessed by Bellum in Phantom Hourglass, and I'm pretty sure there's been at least one other example elsewhere in the series.

Eh, I suppose. I would argue that Link's status as main character and "the Hero" is pretty significant there, though. I look forward to Anita's video on sidekicks, as maybe she'll weigh in on that one. Also touche on Linebeck, you're right.

[zircon]

Brandon/EC stay on topic please. None of you are responding to anything actually being said here.

[MC Final Sigma]

I dunno, I did ask a woman why she didn't work in a steel mill, and here was the conversation:

Me:

Hey, have you ever considered working in a steel mill?

Woman:

Haha no

Me:

Any particular reason? I'm just curious!

Woman:

Not my cup of tea

Me:

Too dangerous, or?

Woman:

Not into that type of work . Why do you ask?

Me:

I was just curious! It's interesting to me. Were you ever interested in working at, maybe, a coal plant or mine?

Maybe in construction?

Woman:

No way. I'm not into physical jobs that would require me to become dirty.

I would be the person who held the stop sign at construction. But I would never do construction

You see, you can gather all the anecdotal evidence you want, it doesn't prove that women are naturally given to certain roles and men to others. We (as a society) socialize our children differently depending on their gender, so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy to say that girls will naturally like pink, housework, etc. more. Do you think we see less women in STEM jobs because they're naturally worse at it, or because they've been conditioned not to incline toward them?

[Bleck]

I dunno, I did ask a woman why she didn't work in a steel mill, and here was the conversation:

what the hell is your point

[EC2151]

Brandon/EC stay on topic please. None of you are responding to anything actually being said here.

I think my point is pretty clear.

MC Final Sigma writes "Women and men have equal rights. Ergo, damsels-in-distress are sexist and toxic and should be shamed out of cultural use"

I ask "In what way do rights function like that? How does the presumed right of equality (I say presumed because MC leaves it vague and ill-defined) have any bearing on individual fictional examples (in my specific circumstance, fairy-tale settings)?"

Or are we just going to let MC talk out his or her ass for another couple of pages and argue with us while we aren't even one-hundred-percent sure what MC is actually arguing, outside a vague reprimand against princess-rescuing? I know we all like typing, but come on.

Edited March 11, 2013 by EC2151

[Brandon Strader]

Brandon/EC stay on topic please. None of you are responding to anything actually being said here.

Can you clarify how I was off topic?

Edit: Every refresh adds 10 posts, I give up

Edited March 11, 2013 by Brandon Strader

[MC Final Sigma]

I think my point is pretty clear.

MC Final Sigma writes "Women and men have equal rights. Ergo, damsels-in-distress are sexist and toxic and should be shamed out of cultural use"

I ask "In what way do rights function like that? How does the presumed right of equality (I say presumed because MC leaves it vague and ill-defined) have any bearing on individual fictional examples?"

What do you want me to say, EC? Rights come from God? Governments? You can't prove that rights "exist," so obviously I can't prove that women have the right not be degraded in the media. That said, your lack of empathy is astounding.

[Dexie]

Eh, I suppose. I would argue that Link's status as main character and "the Hero" is pretty significant there, though. I look forward to Anita's video on sidekicks, as maybe she'll weigh in on that one. Also touche on Linebeck, you're right.

I would have to argue that Midna is just as much a main character as Link is. She is, after all, the titular Twilight Princess, and most of the game's plot involves her and her story. She factors heavily into the actual gameplay too, moreso than a lot of Link's other sidekicks.

That being said, if anyone in Twilight Princess is a disempowered female, it's Midna. I am curious to see if Anita actually brings her up in her video, though I don't think she will.

[Ab56 v2 aka Ash]

I wasn't saying that people shouldn't discuss what works are sexist and which aren't. I was saying that if you completely flip your shit over every instance of a maybe-kinda-could be sexist element in a work (like the damsel in distress trope), which aren't individually a big problem, then people are going to tune you out because you're making a big deal over small issues.

Put another way: save your effort for the big issues. People have a limited attention span and most of them don't take well to being preached at, so if you actually want to reach a wide audience, you have to concentrate your effort. Instead of saying "everything's a little bit sexist", start with something that's blatantly sexist -- which makes it hard for people to dismiss it as "eh, that's no big deal" like they can with small examples -- and then pull out to show how this is indicative of the wider industry, and how even games that don't seem nearly as bad at first can still have problems.

Really, the video seemed less like "sexism is a problem in the gaming industry and here's why you should care" and more like "a brief history of institutional sexism in the gaming industry". It approaches the topic as if its viewers already agreed that sexism was a big problem in video games and simply wanted to learn more about the issue's history. That's a no-good way to convince people that it is an issue in the first place.

Of course, it's possible that that's exactly how she's approaching the series -- "you already know that sexism is a problem, so here are some details". There's nothing wrong with that, it's just not going to convince many people that don't believe in the problem to begin with that there is a problem at all.

There's little for me to say other than that I completely disagree about limiting the amount of perspectives shared because someone, somewhere will be alienated because they don't believe it's a clear-cut example of sexism. I mean, I guess you could say one example like DiD is not as egregious as another more overt form of sexism, but the less egregious example might reveal more subtle nuances of the issue that the more egregious example does not. Just because the majority of people (if that were even the case) doesn't care about those nuanced points, it doesn't mean those perspectives should be shared any less. There is not a finite amount of discussion that can occur. Ms. Sarkeesian is just one voice talking to a general audience about her perspective. She doesn't represent all feminists everywhere.

[EC2151]

No, I just wanted to hear your definition of rights, and how this applies to fictional examples.

Stop assuming my lack of empathy, because someone might construe that (ie you) as being myopic.

[MC Final Sigma]

I would have to argue that Midna is just as much a main character as Link is. She is, after all, the titular Twilight Princess, and most of the game's plot involves her and her story. She factors heavily into the actual gameplay too, moreso than a lot of Link's other sidekicks.

That being said, if anyone in Twilight Princess is a disempowered female, it's Midna. I am curious to see if Anita actually brings her up in her video, though I don't think she will.

I wouldn't make too big deal out of the title, as "Zelda" is in all of the titles and look what's been done to her from day one. I mean, I see where you're coming from and I too look forward to the video.

[MC Final Sigma]

No, I just wanted to hear your definition of rights, and how this applies to fictional examples.

Stop assuming my lack of empathy, because someone might construe that (ie you) as being myopic.

Construe away, friend. I think children have the right not to be trained to only experience half of their humanity, and that toward that end videogame narratives like these are damaging. Doesn't mean I'm against free speech, it just means I wish people weren't so shitty. If you think that makes me close-minded, so be it.

[EC2151]

You still use the word "right" but you haven't told me what you think it means. I don't see how we can have a discussion on terms without definitions. The passive-aggressive use of 'friend' was a nice touch though. No need to be cranky.

[MC Final Sigma]

You still use the word "right" but you haven't told me what you think it means. I don't see how we can have a discussion on terms without definitions. The passive-aggressive use of 'friend' was a nice touch though. No need to be cranky.

Would you rather I called you an ass? It's your call, friend.

I can't define rights. Maybe you can enlighten me. But my basic, innate morality tells me that it's wrong to degrade women, whether we're talking about mass media or not.

[EC2151]

There's no need to get emotional in an academic discussion. All I'm doing is asking questions. I'd rather you answer them, personally.

Doesn't the concept of 'degrading women' implicitly rely on a definition of rights that preclude against degradation? What are these rights?

By using the term 'innate morality' are you implying that it's naturally degrading (and wrong) to rescue a woman? If so, is it naturally degrading to rescue a man? Is rescuing itself degrading? I'm confused as to what your argument is.

Edited March 11, 2013 by EC2151

[Radiowar]

I wasn't saying that people shouldn't discuss what works are sexist and which aren't. I was saying that if you completely flip your shit over every instance of a maybe-kinda-could be sexist element in a work (like the damsel in distress trope), which aren't individually a big problem, then people are going to tune you out because you're making a big deal over small issues.

if youre referring to the video here, it is a pretty good example of the supremely unfair catch-22 ish situation people like sarkeesian face: either they don't have enough evidence, and you get smug assholes like emperor charlemagne bein like "ENUMERATE THEM FOR ME."; or there's too much evidence, and they're making a big deal out of nothing.

Put another way: save your effort for the big issues. People have a limited attention span and most of them don't take well to being preached at, so if you actually want to reach a wide audience, you have to concentrate your effort. Instead of saying "everything's a little bit sexist", start with something that's blatantly sexist -- which makes it hard for people to dismiss it as "eh, that's no big deal" like they can with small examples -- and then pull out to show how this is indicative of the wider industry, and how even games that don't seem nearly as bad at first can still have problems.

we are confronted with blatant sexism every day. you cant turn on the tv without hearing about women being denied their reproductive rights, women being paid less than men, women all over the world whose bodies and identities are being violated - what do you think makes it possible for horrible, inconceivable violence to occur against women every day? it is exactly the little things that those who have - DARE I SAY IT - the privilege to shrug it off refuse to acknowledge.

i said the pattern was the problem - but a pattern is by definition comprised by smaller instances which, on their own, may appear unremarkable. what is important about these videos is that they compile these seemingly unremarkable instances - understanding that it is not that the examples are unremarkable at all, but that they are perceived as such due to a culture whose dominant class normalizes them - and suggests that while all of us in society - men, women (but particularly men, it should be said, as our conception of gender manifests itself as a hierarchy of power in which men are firmly dominant) - while not necessarily responsible for the most heinous acts of sexual violence or discrimination, implicitly support or enable these acts by performing, witnessing, and accepting acts which are not so overt, yet are undeniably cut from the same cloth.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Radiowar

[MC Final Sigma]

There's no need to get emotional in an academic discussion. All I'm doing is asking questions.

Doesn't the concept of 'degrading women' implicitly rely on a definition of rights that preclude against degradation? What are these rights?

By using the term 'innate morality' are you implying that it's naturally degrading to rescue a woman? If so, is it naturally degrading to rescue a man? Is rescuing itself degrading? I'm confused as to what your argument is.

Perhaps because you haven't been paying attention? And this is hardly an "academic" discussion. Anyway, I'm not going to play the moral relativism game with you. I can't show why anyone deserves any type of moral treatment ever under any circumstances. You can't prove a normative sentiment because there are no universally granted premises. So, necessarily, my opinion derives from my own scruples. What's the problem?

My argument is that these narratives, through constant reinforcement of the figure of the disempowered female, communicate that women are themselves naturally helpless and thus need men. I think that's a sexist notion, and I am against it. I have repeatedly said that it's the pervasiveness of the trope, not the act of rescuing itself, that is the problem. Please read this carefully, because I think you'll agree that all this repeating myself is getting rather annoying.

[EC2151]

@Radio:

I don't know how Sarkeesian's list of examples has anything to do with my request for a clarification on MC Sigma's part, outside of your opportunity to [in]directly insult me.

what do you think makes it possible for horrible, inconceivable violence to occur against women every day?

I don't think it's video-games.

sexual violence or discrimination, implicitly support or enable these acts by performing, witnessing, and accepting acts which are not so overt, yet are undeniably cut from the same cloth

I point to my question above - is rescuing women naturally degrading? Is rescuing naturally degrading in and of itself? Please answer this for this statement to make more sense to me.

[MC Final Sigma]

@Radio:

I don't know how Sarkeesian's list of examples has anything to do with my request for a clarification on MC Sigma's part, outside of your opportunity to [in]directly insult me.

what do you think makes it possible for horrible, inconceivable violence to occur against women every day?

I don't think it's video-games.

sexual violence or discrimination, implicitly support or enable these acts by performing, witnessing, and accepting acts which are not so overt, yet are undeniably cut from the same cloth

I point to my question above - is rescuing women naturally degrading? Is rescuing naturally degrading in and of itself? Please answer this for this statement to make more sense to me.

No, it is not naturally degrading.

[Tensei]

There's no need to get emotional in an academic discussion. All I'm doing is asking questions. I'd rather you answer them, personally.

Doesn't the concept of 'degrading women' implicitly rely on a definition of rights that preclude against degradation? What are these rights?

By using the term 'innate morality' are you implying that it's naturally degrading (and wrong) to rescue a woman? If so, is it naturally degrading to rescue a man? Is rescuing itself degrading? I'm confused as to what your argument is.

Would you mind not derailing the thread with semantics? If you think a discussion on innate rights and morality is interesting, maybe you can make a PPR thread about it, but there's no point in harassing a person over the definition of a word.

I point to my question above - is rescuing women naturally degrading? Is rescuing naturally degrading in and of itself? Please answer this for this statement to make more sense to me.

There is a certain distinction between saving a person in real life and saving a person within a story. As a story element, it will always have some kind of significance because A. it's a common element in tons of stories throughout history, so it carries certain cultural connotations, and B. Unlike in real life, a writer has full creative control over the story elements, so everything that happens in a story, happens with a reason.

So, obviously it's not INNATELY degrading. However, as a story element it carries some unfortunate connotations that tend to make me wary if a contemporary game plays it completely straight, because it simply reeks of insensitivity and lazy writing.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Tensei

[Brandon Strader]

Would you mind not derailing the thread with semantics? If you think a discussion on innate rights and morality is interesting, maybe you can make a PPR thread about it, but there's no point in harassing a person over the definition of a word.

I believe you mean semitics.

If the thread has evolved into woman's rights and similar sexism-based topics, rather than the particularly narrow topic of the DiD trope in video games (which was the original topic in case anyone forgot!) then I don't think that is a problem, it's still in the same basic radius of the acceptable topic. (as the guy who made the thread I expected it to evolve this way)

Edited March 11, 2013 by Brandon Strader