How metal is this?

[Meteo Xavier]

I can answer that question for you, but I though it'd be an attractive enough title.

Still on my journey working on more energetic, ballsy genres to increase the value of my music. For the last month or so, off and on, I've been trying to work on a fake Metal template with (and I know you're going to hiss at me but I don't care) EastWest Ministry of Rock. I'm not very good at mixing distorted guitars, so this is what I have now:

http://tindeck.com/listen/rabk - First Version

http://tindeck.com/listen/ejms - Newer version. Added another guitar.

Both are unmastered.

The actual context I'm working on is not trying to do full, straight-up, extremely hard-to-tell-it's-not-real metal. What I'm actually trying to build here is a decent enough metal foundation to build upon. I'm more interested in making sure the guitars, bass, drums and organ sound good enough to use for synth rock, prog sounding stuff, harder electronica, orchestral rock, etc. I'm not really trying to fool anyone into thinking I did this in a studio with a full studio team, I'm just trying to get a solid foundation for tracks people will like.

An example might help:

. This is what inspired me to build this. Not amazing, super realistic metal, but a good, energetic track that's pretty popular. Except for the lead guitar, this is the kinda quality level I'm shooting for for remixes and other work.

I hope I'm being specific enough there. . What do you think? What could I reasonably fix to make it more palatable for general listeners and to do melodic synth work on top of?

[Necrox]

How did I know that you were going to put link something that has to do with MMZ....if you're going for realism, then that panned ride cymbal must die. Or be less panned. I don't know much about mixing that guitar, but it sounds real enough for an unmixed product. I think you have the right idea with the synth. I recommend looking up Bonkers here on OCR and listening to "Roaming...Please Wait" if you want another (awesome) example of a synth/guitar jam.

[Meteo Xavier]

That was MMX5, and if you read, I'm NOT really going for realism, I'm just trying to make a likable track with the metal foundation in it.

All the same, I'll try to fix that ride cymbal if I can. That's the kinda advice I'm looking for. MOR's drums are panned kinda weird.

[timaeus222]

Yeah, why are the drums so hard-panned?

I'm assuming you just want advice on mixing the guitars in general. Well, right now the bass is way too loud, and there's lots of low end mud near 300Hz. For your context, the guitars don't have to be that heavy I guess, but they should still be present.

There's a pretty awesome synth/rock remix

. The mixing could be a bit better there now that I look back at it, but it's good enough for what you're doing IMO. Edited November 4, 2013 by timaeus222

[AngelCityOutlaw]

Any tuning higher than drop z is unacceptable.

[Argle]

I think it sounds decent, would not sound out of place at all in a video game. For guitars you could probably get better results from Shreddage, which is the bees knees for chugging rhythm work because it was recorded direct. The drums do seem kind of wide panned. Not sure how much control MOR gives you over that.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Argle

[Darangen]

Energetic metal is more than just making sure the guitars sound great, it's about making the guitars, drums, and bass all work together to have a united punch in the face feel.

Right now your guitar riffs are fine, but the drums feel bland and boring and it's putting a damper on any energy you would be getting from the guitars. Most metal music has guitars and drums hitting at the same time to give it a super huge attack which creates the energy you seem to be looking for. Try coordinating your drums with your guitars and/or vice versa and see how much more energy you get.

[Meteo Xavier]

I think it sounds decent, would not sound out of place at all in a video game. For guitars you could probably get better results from Shreddage, which is the bees knees for chugging rhythm work because it was recorded direct. The drums do seem kind of wide panned. Not sure how much control MOR gives you over that.

I have Shreddage, I just haven't gotten the Peavey Amp sim back on my new computer yet, and I had a lot more trouble mixing that one than this one. I probably need it all the same because Shreddage goes lower than MOR, but it's still a pain to mix IMO.

It might be me that's hard-panning the drums. I'll try narrowing the stereo spectrum in the FL Studio channel for it.

I'm assuming you just want advice on mixing the guitars in general. Well, right now the bass is way too loud, and there's lots of low end mud near 300Hz. For your context, the guitars don't have to be that heavy I guess, but they should still be present.

Hmm. You're maybe the third person to tell me the bass is too much, but when I compare it to other metal tracks I use for reference, it doesn't sound much stronger than that. Still, I guess if three people are saying the same thing independently, it must have merit. How much cutting at that frequency should I do?

Right now your guitar riffs are fine, but the drums feel bland and boring and it's putting a damper on any energy you would be getting from the guitars. Most metal music has guitars and drums hitting at the same time to give it a super huge attack which creates the energy you seem to be looking for.

This is particularly useful. Go into more detail if you would. Is it the drum mixing or the composition or both? How do metal compositions usually line up their guitars and drums? I can see the palm mute chugging along the double bass drum throbbing, but what else is usually coordinated?

[Darangen]

Kicks/Toms with the palm muting is a pretty standard staple, you could use snares or crash cymbals to accent the short chords.

The other school of thought is to have the bass and kick work together to make them both sound bigger, it gives the kick a nice boom and the bass a nice attack. If you don't want to have throbbing double kicks constantly you could try that.

As far as mixing vs composition, it's really both. It's more the composition right now, work on getting that first and worry about mixing later, but similar to what I said above, you want the bass and kick to work together. Pick one to cover the low end, and one to cover the punch. As for the guitars, it'll be tempting to want to turn them up in the mix but you really just want them to add a bit of color. Distorted guitars have a tendency to stomp all over everything in any mix, so just be sure to roll off the low end and let them support the drums and bass instead of try to lead. Get the bass and drums working first, then slowly bring up the guitars until you have the sound you want.

It's not easy, so don't let it frustrate you if it doesn't sound amazing right away, once you get the hang of it it'll get easier.

[timaeus222]

Hmm. You're maybe the third person to tell me the bass is too much, but when I compare it to other metal tracks I use for reference, it doesn't sound much stronger than that. Still, I guess if three people are saying the same thing independently, it must have merit. How much cutting at that frequency should I do?

IMO, it tends to be harder to find a balance if you have too much of something and you bring it down, versus having too little and raising it up.

I don't know what your EQ looks like, but I could hear too much bass frequencies (but its overall volume issue sounds like it could fix itself after the EQ adjustment), and I'd estimate cutting around 2~4dB. Since you use FL, hopefully that makes it easier to find the trouble spot, (I may find time to just find that spot later tonight, who knows). Generally speaking it should be a very bright EQ reading if you imagine an exaggerated overboost, and it's much wider than a resonance.

In retrospect, the bass may just be "slightly" too much while the sequencing isn't tight enough, and touching that up might help with the low bass frequencies and add a little low mids and mids from the pluck. What bass is that?

Edited November 4, 2013 by timaeus222

[Meteo Xavier]

Scarbee MM Bass for Kontakt 5.

When you say the sequencing should be tighter, do you mean I should shorten the notes?

[timaeus222]

Scarbee MM Bass for Kontakt 5.

When you say the sequencing should be tighter, do you mean I should shorten the notes?

*looks at the possible articulations from the NI website* Hm, no staccato listed. Oh well, maybe another method is possible.

You could try imagining how a real bass player could play the notes, get in the groove, and note when the articulations may change. Shortening the notes in general should do something for you, but if the notes are all sustains, it could just sound like slow tremolo picking if the programmer didn't put automatic note-stops or adjustable note-stops at the release of a note. You may be able to take advantage of "tighter release samples" here, but that would have to be combined with sequencing shorter notes like you said for any staccato notes.

• Two different sets of release samples: loose and tight
  

Under the circumstance of mixing in a guitar, the picking is less clear when the mixing isn't touched yet, it appears more "washy", and that's why I suggested tighter sequencing. Tighter sequencing simply means staccato on fast notes and sustains on longer notes, i.e. realistic sequencing. Since staccato is just a sustain with a manual note-stop, you can look into assigning a keyswitch to use those particular release samples.

• Control over release samples - random alternation between different release samples where the proportion of each can be controlled by the user. Select a default release type and use a keyswitch to toggle between the chosen default behaviour and other types.
  

Edited November 5, 2013 by timaeus222

[Meteo Xavier]

This is me practicing some more with a remix of BRAVE NEW WORLD from Namco X Capcom (based on a MIDI from DZX). I think I'm improving, but it still sounds way too harsh and filling up the soundscape in my opinion. I have taken many of the suggestions here as I work on this.

Is this better than my last attempt http://tindeck.com/listen/tpsy

Edited December 1, 2013 by Meteo Xavier

[Darangen]

You're improving.

The drums are written a lot better, but they still sound weak in my opinion. Mainly a mixing issue and not a composition issue.

Have you heard of parallel compression? A lot of rock genre's and even some electronic music uses parallel compression on the kick and snare drums, sometimes even the toms, to give them extra punch and make sure that they still stand out and sit right in the mix at the same time.

You could try watching these videos and see if anything catches your ears:

The idea is to send some of the drums (ideally your kick and snare) to an aux bus and compress the crap out of that bus. Usually something crazy like a 20:1 ration to really squish it. Then you mix it together with your normal drum bus until you get a nice punchy, full sound.

What this allows you to do is keep the compressed sound of the drums while maintaining dynamics as well because you can actually control the volume of the super-compressed sound.

Usually a good guideline is to turn the mix down really quiet, like where you can just start to hear it, and pay attention to what you can hear. What you should hear is the kick, the snare, and the lead melody. If that's not the case, you should probably go back and play with it a bit more. When I did this to your mix I heard the melody and the guitars and some crash cymbals. The kick and snare need some more presence and parallel compression could give you that extra push they need.

[timaeus222]

This is sounding much better. I think the bubbly lead may have too much delay as I can hear the delay, but eh.

When this first starts, the drums feel very narrow. The cymbal is typically panned more than it is now. Either left or right is fine; I've heard both. The kick sounds pretty good as it is, but the snare can be more dominant. This might help.

The guitars sound great; the bass could use more oomph, but it's not necessary.

[Meteo Xavier]

I wanted to post an update here but I didn't get to export it in enough time. It's becoming less metal and more... metal/electronica guitar driven aggressor. The mixing is becoming difficult, but it's coming along. I plan to get professional mastering for it when all is said and done, so I just need to get it good enough to master.

The drums are narrow sounding because I hit a setting on it for "Mono (Sum)" which makes it narrow. Certainly fixes the problem of it being too wide. I will likely just use other drum .wav samples to fill it out and fake a wideness.

Let me ask this - are there textbooks on making metal tracks properly on the computer? I have one on dance music, one on orchestral, but I wanted to know if someone has made a tutorial book that talks about how to make metal tracks with samples and such.

[timaeus222]

Honestly, I just mix it however I need to, to make it sound good to me. There are a lot of YouTube videos that tell you "how" to mix metal tracks, but you don't know what audio equipment they have, so there isn't perfect consistency in the tips. I guess you could search those "tutorials" on YouTube, but you may not be a person who wants to sift through videos for practical tips that suit you.

[Meteo Xavier]

I would if I could find some decent ones. A lot of the tutorials I saw on there were really... not quite what I was expecting if I'm to be generous. All I've found so far were using Fl Slayer and Fast Distortion or EWQL MOR just by itself. I was looking for something that taught me more how metal tracks are generally composed and produced on computer.

[timaeus222]

Hm... You know, I'd make a video for this, but:

1) I don't know what DAW you use. Not a huge deal though.

2) My computer doesn't have a good enough processor speed to record at this RAM intensity for videos without significant lag and clicking.

I'll recreate Ian Dorsch's "Subterrenea" demo for Shreddage II as best as I can with what I have, do some mixing, send you stems, and put screenshots of the EQing I did that you can recreate on your DAW, if that sounds cool to you. I'll describe the compression & reverb in a general sense, describe why I did each portion of each EQ (so you can make some sense out of why I did stuff and make EQ decisions based on my reasoning), and give you any free plugins I end up using. The EQ would do most of the work in the example I'm working on.

I'll be using Shreddage II, Groove Bias Drums (whaaaaaat? ), and Trilian.

I can't say I know enough to help with toms, though (the original didn't have toms, so the recreation doesn't have toms). Also, I didn't use the hi hats either, but those have such a loose range for pleasant EQing, so it's not going to be hard.

Edited December 31, 2013 by timaeus222

[Meteo Xavier]

That's insanely generous of you. I'd say I don't need something that time-intensive from you, but you sound like you've already done it. If you haven't, we probably don't need to go to that level on it, but if you have, I'd be an asshole not to accept something that generous.

And I did render a new version. Here it is: http://tindeck.com/listen/evjx

[timaeus222]

It's okay, I was actually really close to finishing by the time you saw this. Besides, it can be another template at my disposal AND something helpful for you and many others.

This shows specific things I did, but described in a certain way so that it can be applied in a general sense too. The compression is more specific, but the settings should be mostly transferable.

Metal Mixing - A General Approach

EDIT:

As for your mix, the guitars sound a tiny bit hollow, as if they were high passed above 200~300Hz or so (this is just a nitpick). The bass seems wide? I used to do that, but I kinda stopped a few months back. Great snare tone, and the kick and snare are only slightly buried. The toms seem good.

The newest version is actually quite close IMO, overall.

Edited December 31, 2013 by timaeus222