DKC2 Forest Interlude / Web Woods remix

[CC Ricers]

Here's a remix in progress of DKC2's Forest Interlude, which shouldn't need more introduction.

https://soundcloud.com/ccricers/test/s-WNMKA

Source:

Any feedback is welcome!

Edited November 23, 2013 by CC Ricers

[Rockos]

Good stuff. I really like the intro. I would have seen it full dubstep. But it's me. Everything sounds dubstep to me

[timaeus222]

0:35 sounds pretty muddy to me; I think you notice that.

The soundscape is pretty neat. Sounds techy/digital. A lil too bass heavy though, and that's partially why it's muddy.

[DarkSim]

Sounds very overcompressed - there's little dynamic range here so everything seems to blend into everything else, arrangement-wise. As such, it becomes quite tiring to listen to. Try dialing down the compression, and adding some real transitions between the sections to make each part of the song stand out.

[CC Ricers]

Sounds very overcompressed - there's little dynamic range here so everything seems to blend into everything else, arrangement-wise. As such, it becomes quite tiring to listen to. Try dialing down the compression, and adding some real transitions between the sections to make each part of the song stand out.

Yeah, I really haven't gotten around to noticing that in the waveform much until I compared it to some other ReMixes. Your Smashinarium ReMix has more dynamics. So my big question is, how to keep the loudest parts sounding very loud while easing off on the compression as well? I am not sure if this is just perceived loudness, but the kick drums in my remix sound about 25% quieter. Reducing compression on my track actually makes the entire composition sound a lot muddier.

[timaeus222]

Yeah, I really haven't gotten around to noticing that in the waveform much until I compared it to some other ReMixes. Your Smashinarium ReMix has more dynamics. So my big question is, how to keep the loudest parts sounding very loud while easing off on the compression as well? I am not sure if this is just perceived loudness, but the kick drums in my remix sound about 25% quieter. Reducing compression on my track actually makes the entire composition sound a lot muddier.

You analyze waveforms too? WAVEFORM BUDDIES! Seriously though, that's a sign of a perfectionist mentality.

Compression on your track, meaning... Master track compression, if I'm understanding you correctly. That should be done last to make your edits accurate to the pre-compression mixdown. If that's what you did, it'd help to turn it off and mix while it's off.

If you ease off on the compression enough so that you don't get overcompression, I'm assuming you mean the mix won't easily peak near -0.2dB or so like you want due to the hard knee limiter you use. My suggestion is that you try looking for a soft knee limiter you could like, and see if that changes your perspective of hard vs. soft knee. Personally I love soft knee because the only drawback to using it is if things are too loud, there's overcrowding, but never overcompression. From what I've done with it, it seems to function like a very tolerant soft clipper. You'd have to try really hard to clip with a soft knee limiter, but you'd still have to realize when the mix overall is louder than 0dB. Instead of overcompression, the thing to look for while using soft knee would be loss of transients due to overcrowding. However, if you're the type of person I think you are, this may be a good fit. We both look at waveforms, and I would have suggested you look at waveforms anyway if I were to give the suggestion to try a soft knee limiter.

[DarkSim]

Yeah, I really haven't gotten around to noticing that in the waveform much until I compared it to some other ReMixes. Your Smashinarium ReMix has more dynamics. So my big question is, how to keep the loudest parts sounding very loud while easing off on the compression as well? I am not sure if this is just perceived loudness, but the kick drums in my remix sound about 25% quieter. Reducing compression on my track actually makes the entire composition sound a lot muddier.

Hey thanks for listening to my remixes! That particular one I made about 3 years ago now and I think I've become much better at mixing since then, although I'm still not anywhere near the level of some people on here.

I think the key to your question is to have a very good mix before you start master compression. You can (and probably should) use compressors on individual tracks before you put some compression on the master tracks. I tend to compress in 2 or 3 stages, but the key is to have a good mix first. By that I mean, make sure each layer is EQ'd properly and has its own space in the frequency spectrum. It's not just about overall loudness, but frequencies as well.

Let's take the kick as an example. Comparing the kicks in our tracks, you said mine sounded about 25% louder. For my kicks, I like to boost the EQ at around 100-120Hz, and then cut that range out of all my other bass sounds using a small bell filter (nothing too extreme like a notch filter, just enough to give it some breathing room). I also roll off ALL other tracks that aren't bass at around 120Hz using a low cut filter. That way, you don't accidentally get any reverb or artifacts bleeding into the bass frequencies, which will cause you lots of mixing problems when it comes to compression. I may also layer my kick to give it a bit more weight, although that's not too important depending on your kick sample. I then compress the kick until it sounds beefy enough, and go from there.

Here's a remix I made just a few days ago. It took me about 3 goes to get the mastering how I wanted it, but I think I got the right balance of loudness and clarity, whilst maintaining a dynamic range. Don't be afraid to drop out instruments to leave holes in the frequency spectrum. When you bring them back in, the perceived loudness will be greater.

Once you have a good mix, the overall compression should help tie everything together. Try experimenting with the EQ a bit more, and don't be afraid to leave a few things out now and again!

[timaeus222]

*1 --- I think the key to your question is to have a very good mix before you start master compression. You can (and probably should) use compressors on individual tracks before you put some compression on the master tracks. I tend to compress in 2 or 3 stages, but the key is to have a good mix first. By that I mean, make sure each layer is EQ'd properly and has its own space in the frequency spectrum. It's not just about overall loudness, but frequencies as well.

*2 --- Let's take the kick as an example. Comparing the kicks in our tracks, you said mine sounded about 25% louder. For my kicks, I like to boost the EQ at around 100-120Hz, and then cut that range out of all my other bass sounds using a small bell filter (nothing too extreme like a notch filter, just enough to give it some breathing room). I also roll off ALL other tracks that aren't bass at around 120Hz using a low cut filter. That way, you don't accidentally get any reverb or artifacts bleeding into the bass frequencies, which will cause you lots of mixing problems when it comes to compression.

...

*3 --- Don't be afraid to drop out instruments to leave holes in the frequency spectrum. When you bring them back in, the perceived loudness will be greater.

...

I'm gonna add to this.

*1 --- Be careful when you say to use compressors on everything. I used to do that way too much, and it sounded pretty bad. However, it was back when I knew nothing about compressors other than the fact that they push down loudness (like a year ago, before the month that I considered my "turning point"). When you use compressors, remember to do a strict before-and-after comparison. Either you have an A/B function in your compressor, or you can switch the compressor on/off and compare like that. If it truly sounds better to you, then of course keep it. If it doesn't sound quite right and you don't know why, try looking for examples of what you were aiming to accomplish.

*2 --- I do this notching/boosting with my kicks/basses, and I personally think it's a great idea. Also, signal chains will certainly make a difference in how things sound, depending on the elements in the chain. For example, compression after reverb is different from reverb after compression. Generally speaking, reverb after compression sounds more natural. If you compress a reverbed sound, it'll be more obvious since the reverb tail will be affected too. On the other hand, if you reverb a compressed sound, it'll simply sound nice and big, depending on the tones you use for the instrument or reverb.

*3 --- Absolutely. Drops like those are such fun to do. Two examples:

My Metroid ReMix with AngelCityOutlaw (1:22)

(2:04) Edited November 27, 2013 by timaeus222

[CC Ricers]

I definitely notice the difference in reverb chains. Nearly all my channels use FL Multiband compressor (I only use freebie plugins) and boost the gain in the frequencies I want and reduce it in the ones I don't. Sometimes I also decrease the compression ratio if I want the output to be pushed more. If there's any reverb, I typically add it before the compressor.

The master track has the Blockfish compressor, I usually have the compression level around 60% fast attack and usually don't need to touch anything else. I turn off "opto" because that sounds way too harsh. I don't know if it's typically an okay idea to route a second compressor on the master on top of the channel compressors.

Also I have started to put a filter on the instruments that don't need bass.

I'll work on the mixing, but I think I'll have to outsource the mastering to somebody else. A lot to ask for a free track, I know. I have been working on remixes for almost 10 years. Some people here are quicker than me (like started 5 years ago) and get front paged like easy shizz!

Edited December 1, 2013 by CC Ricers

[timaeus222]

I'd be down for that.

[CC Ricers]

I'd be down for that.

Okay, I'll let you know when the remix is finished. Given the feedback I got from you and DarkSim, it sounds like there's more a lot here that needs improvement than stuff that already works

[CC Ricers]

Man, forgot about this one. Didn't think it was that long ago.

Slight update, mixed the instruments a bit differently.

https://soundcloud.com/ccricers/web-woods-wip-2/s-AZqiV

[timaeus222]

Hm, just skimmed through the arrangement this time, and the dynamics stay relatively flat. It'd be nice to get some sort of change-up that alters the pacing.

Careful on the reverb. At 0:55, the snare reverb is pretty heavy on the low end ambience. Raising the low cut some more might help make it less muddy.

At 1:10, something has a harsh resonance. Not sure what, but it's bell-like. At 2:02, the lead sounds like a fake guitar to me. If that's the case, it's a bit harsh and static, since it sounds like all sustains. It feels drier than it actually is because of that. The mixing also gets the loudest and most cluttered at 2:28.

Overall, it seems like an improvement from before, but the mixing is really loud on the track as a whole. Gotta tame those resonances and tone down the extreme treble with some shelving or a shallow low pass.

[CC Ricers]

I've heard some electronic ReMixes here mixed louder and with more treble than mine, so how can I reduce the treble without muddying the mix? I'll probably PM you

[timaeus222]

I've heard some electronic ReMixes here mixed louder and with more treble than mine, so how can I reduce the treble without muddying the mix? I'll probably PM you

It kinda depends on both our personal definitions of loudness, but how I define loudness is perceived volume, while you seem to define it as fullness. While we're both in the right sense, loudness depends on both a full mix and a controlled mix. You can have a mixdown that is too full, and when that happens I consider it crowded and overly loud. Having it just full enough is the pinnacle of loudness, in my view of it. A mix that is both full and controlled is what maximizes the perceived loudness (to the extent of the listener's audio gear, that is).

Reducing the treble is about simply toning it down just enough to make it not harsh. Muddying the mix though, by the OCR definition, is not related to having too little treble, but it's actually related to having too much bass and any sort of obstruction of clarity. Having too little treble, while a subtle distinction, actually is what I'd refer to as a "low encoding" or a "lofi experience". The treble allows for that fullness (resulting from a high encoding, a good sample interpolation gives a good reproduction of as much of the frequency spectrum as possible), but too much (independent of encoding) and the mix gets overly bright, piercing, and/or harsh. In a sense, you can have a lofi AND muddy mixdown, but a lofi mixdown isn't always muddy.

Edited January 29, 2014 by timaeus222

[jnWake ⚖️]

Yeah, this is very loud. Do some experiments with less compression and see how it goes. Raise the volume of your speakers sometime!

Anyway, is it just me or is the flute sample you use at the intro a little out of tune? It sounds really weird to me.

[BlackPanther]

Dat moombahton xD. I had briefly listened to this on my phone. I'll give it a serious listen today at some point and give some feedback by that time.

[CC Ricers]

I'd figure this would be loud, but some of Beatdrop's and Sir_Nuts's own recent mixes murder my ears even more Not to say they're not good mixes. I'm gonna attempt to do some more automation, because in the busier parts the pads seem to sound okay but in the less busy parts they come on too loud.

The flute I used is from a soundfont, man it better not be out of tune unless it was from a very low quality soundfont. I rarely tune instruments finer than a semi tone.

Edited January 30, 2014 by CC Ricers

[timaeus222]

I'd figure this would be loud, but some of Beatdrop's and Sir_Nuts's own recent mixes murder my ears even more Not to say they're not good mixes.

Okie dokie, I'm gonna show you my references to loudness, so you can see where I stand on this.

Loud, but controlled enough

Loud, but controlled juuuuust enough, and about what I consider the max I'd prefer

[BlackPanther]

Hmm, moombahton fits surprisingly well with the source, I digs =D!

I think my only issue is dynamics. You said you would try automation, I think that would be a good idea. I think PrototypeRaptor said before that he automates his dynamic effects, not sure if he still does it or not, but he did at one point, give it a shot!

[timaeus222]

Hmm, moombahton fits surprisingly well with the source, I digs =D!

I think my only issue is dynamics. You said you would try automation, I think that would be a good idea. I think PrototypeRaptor said before that he automates his dynamic effects, not sure if he still does it or not, but he did at one point, give it a shot!

Another piece of advice is that I automate my EQ bands on full sections if I need to, in order to reduce mud and add fullness.