Chill Out, Smithy (Super Mario RPG - "Battle with Smithy", Dr. Mario - "Chill")

[DarkDjinn]

Updated 01-14-14:

-made the lead melody a bit louder (thanks for the suggestion Gario!)

-brought the master volume up by 1 dB

Hello everyone!

I've been working on this track for a few months for the Super Dr. Mario RPG remix project (here: http://ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=42802) I feel like this track is essentially done, but this is my first VG remix and also my first time really paying a lot of attention to mixing, so I really need the feedback on that. You can see in the link the general premise of the Super Dr. Mario RPG project, but this track is supposed to serve as a "final battle" theme. Let me hear what you guys have to say!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g3s7di61ff1nsn/Chill%20Out%2C%20Smithy%20011414.mp3

Source tunes:

Super Mario RPG - Battle with Smithy

Dr. Mario - Chill

(and a little tiny bit of this...) Super Mario Bros 3 - Airship

Thanks in advance!

-Brad

Edited January 19, 2014 by DarkDjinn
removing from mod review

[Neifion]

Hey Brad,

I quite liked this. I thought the mix was solid as well, though I'm traveling and listening on headphones, so I can't tell too much on the bass. I liked that the guitar rhythm is to the sides and the lead is more distant center rather than just upfront. Gives a more evocative sound. Nice job!

Edited December 23, 2013 by Neifion

[DarkDjinn]

Thanks for the kind words. I don't think you were harsh enough though I'm always looking to improve! Thanks again!

-Brad

[timaeus222]

This is mixed pretty quietly overall. I can't tell without downloading, but maybe it's at around -3dB or so. It's a bit light on bass, but otherwise it's alright, from what I can glean due to it being quiet. No glaring issues.

[DarkDjinn]

This is mixed pretty quietly overall. I can't tell without downloading, but maybe it's at around -3dB or so. It's a bit light on bass, but otherwise it's alright, from what I can glean due to it being quiet. No glaring issues.

Yes it is certainly quiet. I don't know how to fix that issue though without causing other ones. I'm using Garageband, and when I raise the master volume, it starts (correct me if I'm using the wrong word) clipping (I mean it sounds all boomy and crackly, forgive my lack of terminology).

[timaeus222]

Yes it is certainly quiet. I don't know how to fix that issue though without causing other ones. I'm using Garageband, and when I raise the master volume, it starts (correct me if I'm using the wrong word) clipping (I mean it sounds all boomy and crackly, forgive my lack of terminology).

That happens because you need a limiter to stop it from clipping.

[Neifion]

That happens because you need a limiter to stop it from clipping.

What he said. If the signal goes over the set threshold, the limiter will bring it back down and prevent clipping.

[Ethan Rex]

What he said. If the signal goes over the set threshold, the limiter will bring it back down and prevent clipping.

Even with a limiter, pumping the volume will cause issues.

The best way of boosting sound (imo) is to boost it during the mastering phase with some makeup gain after compression or using an exciter or even a little bit of overdrive (be careful with that though, it can create an edge to your sound that you might not want).

[timaeus222]

Even with a limiter, pumping the volume will cause issues.

The best way of boosting sound (imo) is to boost it during the mastering phase with some makeup gain after compression or using an exciter or even a little bit of overdrive (be careful with that though, it can create an edge to your sound that you might not want).

Alternatively, you could also just use a soft knee limiter with a spectroscope, and boost the volume until the spectroscope shows the loudest peak touching ~-0.2dB (or 0dB, if you prefer). Soft knee limiters, unlike hard knee limiters, don't cause overcompression quite as easily (limiters and compressors act similarly in that they both push the excess volume down).

A soft knee reduces the audible change from uncompressed to compressed, especially for higher ratios where a hard knee changeover would be more noticeable.[8]

Yes, I'm quoting Wikipedia.

Edited December 30, 2013 by timaeus222

[DarkDjinn]

Updated version: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t60it7jtun0sczp/Chill%20Out%2C%20Smithy%20010214.mp3

Didn't really change all that much, a few drum things here and there. Biggest noticeable difference is that I used compression on the master track. I still have no idea what I'm doing but it seemed to fix the volume problem. Uggh so bad at this part of it.

Edited January 2, 2014 by DarkDjinn
uploaded wrong file the first time

[timaeus222]

Okay, right now there's a very slight overcompression, but it's nothing to really worry too much about, yet.

What I would suggest is turning off the compressor for now, turning up the volume on your computer, and mixing like that until you're ready, and then turn down the volume on your computer and turn the compressor on again. That way, you're making mixing decisions that aren't influenced by the compressor flattening your dynamics.

As far as mixing, as it turns out, the drums are too quiet, such as at 1:53. The kick isn't coming through there, for example, and the snare is barely audible. I know you don't want to hear this, but compression (on a drum bus---a "family" mixer track) is the most conventional way to strengthen the drums. Since at this point there aren't any glaring issues yet, I'd recommend you save a new project file starting from here, and experiment with compression on your own time. Here's a resource I find really useful.

Also, the bass and guitar are clashing in the bass and low-mid frequencies, meaning 80~600Hz. You may find my metal mixing general approach helpful.

And of course, there's a rendering glitch in the first few seconds. I'm sure you'd notice it if you compared.

Edited January 2, 2014 by timaeus222

[DarkDjinn]

Yeah compression is new to me and I haven't fully grasped what it actually does yet. I just turned on one of the presets in Garageband and didn't change any settings on it. It sounded "better" to me so I left it. Still have to work on figuring it all out.

I hear that stupid glitch at the beginning but I can't figure out how to make it stop. It's been there in every mixdown I've made. I just decided to ignore it until the very end because it seems like a simple problem that I just personally don't know how to fix.

Also - that link you shared for your metal mixing guide does not work for me. I signed up for a Box account and it still says that the file is unavailable or that I am not allowed to access it.

With the drums being too quiet - I can hear that the kick is too low now, but I'm not really hearing it with the snare. At any rate, the only thing I did for the drums was mess around with the EQ and boost a few things, mostly in the lower frequencies. When I take those EQ settings off, the drums sound really weak compared to the rest. I imagine that I can mess around with it some more and figure out something that sounds good, but I'm really doing a lot of trial and error instead of relying on actual knowledge.

SO MUCH TO LEARN! Thanks for all your tips so far, by the way.

[timaeus222]

Also - that link you shared for your metal mixing guide does not work for me. I signed up for a Box account and it still says that the file is unavailable or that I am not allowed to access it.

Oh yeah, I shared the wrong link. That's for if I'm logged in, so this should be it:

https://app.box.com/s/ibj5yh5toh2yfc56f4aa

However, signing up for box is not a bad idea.

Edited January 2, 2014 by timaeus222

[DarkDjinn]

Newest version as of 01-06-14: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7uss2m4ghxog308/Chill%20Out%2C%20Smithy%20010614.mp3

Biggest change in this is the guitars. If anyone has anymore EQ tips (especially regarding guitar/bass) I would love them. There are some other issues I noticed with this latest version but I'm actually just curious to see if it's just me or if anyone else hears them too.

[timaeus222]

Aside from how it's still a little bit quiet (nitpick), this actually sounds great at the moment. Some things I'm noticing though:

- Where are the cymbals? They seem to mostly be either a bit too quiet or not there. 1:51, for example, has a very quiet right-panned cymbal. I don't think this would be that much of a problem with the judges panel, but just something I thought I should bring up.

- The lead guitar is oddly distant, and that's a little nitpick a judge would probably make. I don't know if that's fixable with what tools you have in Garageband, but if you can turn up the dry (non-reverbed) signal of the lead guitar, that would help it. Or, if you had external reverb, try raising the volume and lowering the wet (reverb-only) signal; same idea.

- The bass guitar can be a little stronger, but it's not that necessary to do so. It could make a bigger impact if it's done, but as it is, it still sounds good *enough* for OCR in my opinion. This is probably a smaller nitpick than the lead guitar being distant.

- 2:36 has some tremolo going on in the guitar, and I'm not sure how that will be received. Personally I find it a long time to use a tremolo effect to that extent of its mix level and it gets a bit grating, but it's just a nitpick. Although, I did try lowering the midrange of the tremolo guitars a bit at 1000~1600Hz, and it felt less grating, so maybe you could try that.

- I'm finding that if the gain on the master was raised by 2~3dB without overcompression, it sounds like a good volume to me. This is what I was thinking of.

The largest issue I'm seeing is in the arrangement. Something like

passed, and although it does have a lot of repetition, the lead playing is extremely expressive and there were some cool solos incorporated. I'm assuming this started as a cover with some added variations, but I think there can be a tad more expression and/or variation if you really try. 1:07 - 2:14 has accompaniment that sounds pretty much exactly the same as the accompaniment at 0:23 - 1:07, while the addition or variation in the leads sound like sufficient variations, but I think 1:07 - 1:51 needs something more; maybe making the lead guitar more upfront rather than distant will make this seem less repetitive and you wouldn't have to do anything else.

Right now, I think the production would be well-received among the judges either way, and it's up to you whether or not you want to make sure the production "passes with flying colors". There's a certain balance between good production and arrangement that gets people a pass, and I believe that with good production, this level of arrangement could get mostly YESes. Not strong YESes, but still YESes.

Edited January 10, 2014 by timaeus222

[DarkDjinn]

Timaeus, you've been great helping me out with this...I can't thank you enough for all your advice.

I'll probably never be satisfied with it, even if I ever get this on the site, I'm sure I'll immediately notice something else I should have changed or fixed.

That being said, I took everything from your last post into account and made adjustments to a lot of those things. Completely took out that tremolo effect, it was kind of dumb anyway. I still can't fix the volume issue (it's much louder than the first version I made) but I'll work on that later. Check it out: https://www.dropbox.com/s/h395cb37h99xlkz/Chill%20Out%2C%20Smithy%20010914.mp3

[timaeus222]

I like the little bass line downwards at 0:23. Didn't notice that before.

Cool new timpani rolls. I don't think they did too much to detract from the mix, but I'm a little concerned about 0:04 - 0:06. I have nothing against them, but they *are* adding some muddiness to the mix (I can still hear all the elements in the mix clearly enough, though, so this counts as a nitpick). I think you're using them as a source of power? If that's the case, beefing up the toms could accomplish the same thing, but it results in tighter sidechaining (I didn't even know

!). Sidechaining is when instrument A hits and pushes the volume of instrument B down while A is playing. If you do this lightly, you can help your toms, snare, and kick come through more. Edited January 10, 2014 by timaeus222

[DarkDjinn]

I added the timpani because I'm not a big fan of songs just starting with no warning. It works sometimes but a lot of the time, especially with heavy guitars, it startles me if I have the volume up too loud. A good example of this is the song "Redemption" by Shadows Fall...used to make me jump every time I'd put the CD in because I would always forget how loud my car stereo was and how loud and suddenly the song started.

I agree that the timpani adds a little "muddiness" as you say, but I still can clearly hear the timpani, and I think it's just something that goes along with using it in the first place. I might take it out later, I'm undecided.

About sidechaining - I actually just learned what that was but I was unaware that I could do it in Garageband, so I'll have to look into that.

In that last version I took the reverb off the solo/lead guitars almost completely and I think that was the best decision I've made regarding those.

I'm going to wait a bit and see if anyone else has anymore comments that could help out before I label this one for Mod Review.

Thanks for the hundredth time for your tips!

[timaeus222]

I added the timpani because I'm not a big fan of songs just starting with no warning. It works sometimes but a lot of the time, especially with heavy guitars, it startles me if I have the volume up too loud. A good example of this is the song "Redemption" by Shadows Fall...used to make me jump every time I'd put the CD in because I would always forget how loud my car stereo was and how loud and suddenly the song started.

I agree that the timpani adds a little "muddiness" as you say, but I still can clearly hear the timpani, and I think it's just something that goes along with using it in the first place. I might take it out later, I'm undecided.

About sidechaining - I actually just learned what that was but I was unaware that I could do it in Garageband, so I'll have to look into that.

In that last version I took the reverb off the solo/lead guitars almost completely and I think that was the best decision I've made regarding those.

I'm going to wait a bit and see if anyone else has anymore comments that could help out before I label this one for Mod Review.

Thanks for the hundredth time for your tips!

Oh, I actually didn't have a problem with starting the song like that, I was more concerned with how it mostly added muddiness at 0:04. Muddiness simply means obstruction of clarity, but in this case I think what happened was the timpani was buried in its placement, rather than the timpani burying the drums.

As for the lead guitar reverb, reverb is actually helpful in fitting an instrument in a soundscape. If it sticks out, it sounds less realistic since it's further from emulating the acoustics of a room. Keeping the reverb on the lead guitar is totally fine, and I just wanted the volume to be higher. I didn't have any problem with the reverb quality or the presence of the reverb.

[DarkDjinn]

Ok so I think now I've finally gotten this to where I want it. Going to solicit any last feedback with this version before marking it up for mod review. I listened through it and I don't hear anything bad or anything that I want to change but hopefully I'm not missing some minor detail.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/a9h5091pavexgde/Chill%20Out%2C%20Smithy%20011014.mp3

[timaeus222]

Sounds great! There are things to nitpick still, but as it is, it still sounds passable on OCR. I'm glad the drum compression worked out.

[Gario]

MOD REVIEW

Haa, Smithy - very good choice of source, sir! I anticipate much sexiness from this track.

Looks like you didn't disappoint on this, either - nice choice of instruments, and great guitar work throughout. It's really a great balance throughout, too, save for the melodic instrument at 0:35. Considering it's carrying the theme, it would be nice if that was balanced a touch more in the front of the mix than it is now, whenever it comes into the track.

The arrangement is really great and clever, so no comments on that.

Production, very tight.

Gotta thank Timeaus for his insight on the track throughout, as it seems to have helped you out along the way. I believe it'll pass as it stands, even with the minor nitpick that I made. Nice work, and I'll see you on the front page!

[DarkDjinn]

I removed the files from Dropbox so they're not accessible anymore, sorry. I submitted this for (hopeful) acceptance on the site and since it's part of a project, I wanted to try to keep it under wraps from this point forward. Thanks to everyone who gave feedback!