Lufia 2 - Tyrant Breaker (Master Mi Remix)

[Argle]

That guitar lead sounds pretty good, obviously you should hear it in the context of the mix to make any final decisions about it.

[timaeus222]

Guess I can go on with this amazin' shit without buying Shreddage (I'm still not sure if works as an vst plugin with my DAW - they say it only works with Kontakt/Kontakt Player).

Kontakt and Kontakt Player both work in VST wrappers. Unless I'm mistaken, if you can use VSTs, you can use Kontakt and Kontakt Player. What DAW do you have? You should list it on your profile.

By instability in the tone, I mean that the notes "quiver" a bit for whatever reason.

Edited July 2, 2014 by timaeus222

[Master Mi]

Yep, I have already listen to this guitar setting in the whole song - sounds pretty nice - will upload a new version soon.

Unfortunately my DAW is not in the list - maybe you can add some more for the choice of DAWs.

For my remixes and Soundtracks I work with following DAWs:

- Magix Music Maker

- Magix Music Studio

(Both are from the DAW Makers who made Samplitude Music Studio and Sequoia - some pretty expensive, professional German products with a large basis of high quality instruments, synthesizers, fx & music production tools etc. - pretty nice all-in-one-solutions.)

[timaeus222]

For my remixes and Soundtracks I work with following DAWs:

- Magix Music Maker

- Magix Music Studio

(Both are from the DAW Makers who made Samplitude Music Studio and Sequoia - some pretty expensive, professional German products with a large basis of high quality instruments, synthesizers, fx & music production tools etc. - pretty nice all-in-one-solutions.)

I think I've used that before (badly) for like a week, but I switched to FL Studio and am still sticking with FL.

Based on this, Magix CAN use VSTs, so I don't know what's not working (by the way, just for perspective, I wouldn't trust it if someone said "this is high-quality" until you try it yourself and make your own judgment on it, as companies *are* aiming to sell their products ). I like German products, usually, but not always.

Besides, Impact Soundworks makes some incredibly inexpensively-priced stuff, for example, but they compare very well with the more expensive libraries out there.

Edited July 3, 2014 by timaeus222

[Jonathan!]

I would recommend (as MindWanderer did) that you change instruments. Perhaps you could try a distorted organ (a la Deep Purple) or a synth as a lead sound? Many metal bands use synths for some of their lead lines.

In my opinion, you basically need a guitar sound for rhythm. Shreddage sounds pretty good but I haven't seen any demos of it playing any chords. Some of the more djenty stuff in particular sounds pretty realistic. $139 does seem like a good deal, especially since it runs in the free Kontakt player.

An alternative for your rhythm sound would be to get a guitar player to record them for you. This is both the best sounding and the cheapest (free!) way to do it. I would be more than happy to give you a hand with this if you provide the midi. I am sure that there are other guitarists on the forum who would also be willing to help too.

[timaeus222]

In my opinion, you basically need a guitar sound for rhythm. Shreddage sounds pretty good but I haven't seen any demos of it playing any chords. Some of the more djenty stuff in particular sounds pretty realistic. $139 does seem like a good deal, especially since it runs in the free Kontakt player.

If you're thinking of chords that are like triads and bigger, Archtop: Hollowbody Guitar can do that (though it's not specifically made for rock, even if you add distortion)

Edited July 3, 2014 by timaeus222

[Master Mi]

So - I've uploaded the new version with the clean electric guitar and some insignificant changes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyGxxLrkKiY

https://soundcloud.com/master-mi/lufia-2-tyrant-breaker-master-mi-remix-working-title-version-12wav

@ timaeus222: Don't worry - I'm pretty happy with Magix Music Maker (cause I haven't worked with too many other DAWs yet) - but there were still a few bugs in there that fucked me totally up.

@ MindWanderer: I already have an (electronic) instrument with an "essential flavor" (of an electric guitar in this case) in this track - for example the high lead at point 2:36 - sounds a bit like an electric guitar but it's a modified electric piano with a guitar amplifier - sounds pretty well at this point of the track but it was not the right choice at the point where the "real" electric guitar (that I was trying to improve all the time) leads in at 3:19

@ Jonathan!: Thanks for your offer to help me.

But for my first own remix project I want to do it by own so far.

Maybe in future when my DAW & music production skills are at a higher level I will be more openminded relating to some teamwork I think.

The idea with the organ isn't too bad - but not for this remix.

There is another remix of the Sinistral Battle theme I've made last year which had not the best sound quality (just used remastering tools on this cause I hadn't had the biggest DAW and music production skills at this time) - but with my new instrument collections and my acquired knowledge I think I will overwork it someday.

And I think an organ (and the new lead synths) could fit in there pretty well.

What do you mean with "In my opinion, you basically need a guitar sound for rhythm."

I already have 2 power chord guitars for the bass line.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Master Mi

[Master Mi]

Guess, it will take some time for me to go on with this track.

Since I changed my DAW (from Magix Music Maker to Magix Samplitude Music Studio) I have to make this remix again with all the midis and the settings - lowers my motivation a lil bit (but only just a little).

But I tell ya, it'll be good in the end.

I'm working at a remix of Final Fantasy 7 at the same time to keep myself up and to get some variation.

[Master Mi]

Finally I could rebuild my remix from Ground Zero and I used this chance to overhaul it completely.


Check it out here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvRN--KVzkY

or

https://soundcloud.com/master-mi/lufia-2-tyrant-breaker-master-mi-remix-version-12

[timaeus222]

Why does it take over one and a half minutes to bring in a lead sound? It's too long with only fake rhythm guitar and an overcompressed sound (yes, I could tell that the guitar was fake; there are no round robins at all, and all it plays are chords here, even on the ascensions). Compare this with and without a limiter. Listen for the difference in pumping volumes. Along with that, the main issues with this are fake guitar, mechanical drums, repetitive structure, and mechanical piano.

That pretty much sums it up. You could have cut down on nearly half the arrangement and not lost any new ideas. Furthermore, the least you could do with your plugins is take the time to write more realistic velocities. No one plays at the same exact volume in the same exact way or evokes the same exact result in real life. The resultant sound from playing real instruments in the same way multiple times is not perfectly reproducible. At least you can simulate the volume differences, if not the timbral differences.

[Master Mi]

Actually THIS is the compressed version of my track >>> check out the newest version (1.3) of my remix:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNqel5SJPPE
or
https://soundcloud.com/master-mi/lufia-2-tyrant-breaker-master-mi-remix-version-13
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With my compressor AM-Munition which I used for the drums and the master track this time the track got much more pressure - sounds more powerful and so much better.

In the previous version I didn't use further compressors (except of the VSTI-internal compressors of the electric bass guitar and the rhythmic power guitar which are standard settings for those VSTI). There I also used a limiter called sMax11 - but it didn't do too much on limiting the master signal with my settings as I wanted - so the master signal got slightly over 0 dB at some points of the track. So you could have been right with your thoughts that the previous track had some clipping problems (although I couldn't hear any single clipping noise there).

This time I only used the compressor AM-Munition to regulate the loudness and pressure of the drums and master track - the overall and max master volume in the whole track was around - 3 to -1 dB. I don't have used a limiter this time and I think it's much better with this choice.

Don't know what you mean with the fake guitar sound - in the previous version 1.2 I only used 3 (bass) guitars - you can listen to them right from the beginning >>> an usual electric bass guitar (mostly play short rhythmic notes), a rhythmic power guitar (mostly playing short rhythmic notes) and some power chords (playing long, powerful notes) - as well as 1 electric lead guitar at 3:07 and at 4:46.
The other sounds you have listened to in the later parts of the track might be the electric piano with distortion effects which I used from 1:40 on and at peaks like at 2:36 and later ones - it sounds nearly similar to an electric guitar but it's just the electric piano.  
-----------------------------------------

Within the version 1.3 I've also made some further changes:

- added a lower deep lead guitar for the beginning part (makes a much more powerful, darker atmosphere - perfectly fitting to the destructive power of the god-like Sinistrals)
- adapted the volume of the other instruments, mad some little changes at the piano part and removed the annoying distortion effects at the electric lead guitar part towards the end


 

[timaeus222]

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say it isn't overcompressed, because it still is, and the guitars are 100% fake, no doubt about it. Sorry, I'm not even referring to the electric piano. Only the electric guitars. If you want a comparison with a good Lufia 2 ReMix that is not overcompressed, and has realistic guitars... try listening to this one:

https://soundcloud.com/zircon-1/searing-aggression-lufia-2-sinistral-battle-remix

Pay attention to how the instruments do not get pushed down by the limiter in a way that makes them sound squashed. Also, the guitars actually sound realistic based on the variation in tone throughout the notes used, especially at 1:30 (yet, they are not real, which is special). Notice the difference between real and realistic. These guitars are not real, but they are realistic. Your guitars are not real, but are also not realistic.

Honestly, you really should use a limiter, or else you're likely to have clipping, which is unconventional and painful. Because you used a compressor in the way you've used it here, you have overcompression due to your loud track volumes. It doesn't hurt someone's ears, but it hurts your track. Overall, no matter what you say, this is overcompressed and muddy. That's all I can hear here.

---

Also, I'm 100% sure that your DAW can use VSTs. In fact, I already found that out. So, if you still want to try to get Kontakt Player 5 working so you can try out Shreddage II, you're only restricted by your willingness to figure out how to get it on there.

[Master Mi]

I really like the remix "Searing Aggression" of Zircon - love the style/genre of this track.

But if you listen to my remix as well to Zircons remix on youtube (both max volume in the youtube settings) you will see (or rather hear) that both track volumes are nearly equal at the point where both tracks really start.


My DAW metering shows no single point where my remix goes over the edge and clipping. And I can't hear one single clipping noise.
So just tell me at which point you can hear such clipping noises - as I said the master track and every other track in the mixer is far below 0 dB within the whole remix.

(might be some interferences of the lower frequencies within the bass tracks - but nothing what bothers me personally)


And it's not my ultimate goal to make a soundtrack sound 100 % real/realistic - I just want to make it sound really good in a way that expresses my true nature.
Sure I have to learn a lot more and get much better skills to express my nature and emotions more exactly.

But I'm pretty satisfied with the progress I make step by step.

[timaeus222]

I already talked about this: I never said your mix was clipping. I said that if you didn't use your limiter (or compressor, really, because they're very similar except a limiter is a high-Ratio compressor), there could potentially be clipping from your loud track volumes.

On 5/14/2015 at 11:06 AM, timaeus222 said:

Honestly, you really should use a limiter, or else you're likely to have clipping,

In this case, the drums you have sound pushed down by the compressor in an unnatural way, and their transients are breaking up. And when you say you hear "interferences of the lower frequencies within the bass tracks", you're actually right there; it's happening, and it bothers me personally because it's obstructing the clarity you could have.

As long as you learned something, and you can try to view it from the other person's perspective, it's okay.

[Master Mi]

So, here's my newest version (1.4) of my Lufia Remix - Battle #3/Sinistral Battle theme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xSniBKvU6I
https://soundcloud.com/master-mi/lufia-2-tyrant-breaker-master-mi-remix-version-14


I've decided to produce this remix (as well as all my other remixes, soundtracks and music updates in the future) at the program loudness level based on the EBU R 128 guideline (maximal - 23 LUFS (dB) +/- 1 dB) where you have more than enough headroom for the true peaks (maximal - 1 LUFS (dB) - it's also a pretty smart international loudness normalization standard.
Cause of the great peak range over the maximal program loudness compressors/limiters are not a necessity of gainining undefined loudness anymore.

So the changes in this version 1.4 are:
- new standardized loudness based on EBU R 128 >>> just turn up the volumes of your speakers/headphones a bit (about 10 dB)
- removed every kind of compressors/limiters in this track (compressor-plugins as well as VSTI-internal activated compressors by default) for the very best dynamics and the best, natural sound of the instruments
- at the VSTI I could change the dynamic settingsI have set those values to the maximum (had to compensate the decrease of dB cause of the higher dynamic settings by measuring the program loudness and turning up the volume until I got the value of the previous program loudness, but with the best dynamic settings)
- mixed the track again
- got much better dynamics and really cristal clear sound for this track

I'll definitely keep following the holy path of EBU R 128 - it's a pretty smart and well thought-out guideline for broadcasting and loudness normalization which makes the highest sound quality levels in things like music production possible.

Because: Compression can't be my confession.
Just give me a lil' blessed medal for radically uncompressed metal.

[timaeus222]

What did you do to make this quiet? Did you turn down the volumes of the individual instruments, or did you turn down the Master track volume? The former is the way that will help you more. The latter will keep all the issues you had when the Master track volume is not changed. I still hear overcompression on the drums.

And this is far too quiet for normal listening, by the way. I don't want to turn my volume up from 32 to 72 (16 dB).

Also, check your piano sequencing and reverb. There's a lot of low end clutter, not much tone variance in the piano, and it feels quantized. I again refer you back to the Lufia 2 mix I showed you earlier. That is a mixing standard I would shoot for.

[Kat]

Not a big fan of the drums myself. They do sound overcompressed and I can't say I like the sound of them that much as it is. What library are you using? Additionally, the leads at 1:40 and 2:37 have, in my humble opinion, far too much reverb compared to the rest of the mix.

Given one of my recent mix attempts, it's funny I say that.

 

As for the rest of the mix, I wasn't that big on the minute and a half of repetitive power chords before any sort of lead hit the mix. What if you brought that harmony at 1:56 in a bit earlier to spice up the introduction a bit? And given the energy you're trying to convey, what about a lighter crash cymbal 1/4 notes instead of high hat 1/8 notes, before leading up to a drum fill and transition into the main melody?

 

Speaking again of the percussion, you should mess around with the velocity a bit - it's very repetitive right now. An accent here and there can work wonders, especially on the high hat.

 

 

 

 

[Master Mi]

Good ears, dude - changed the thing with the drums which were obviously a compressed preset of my Vita²-Drumkit.
My DAW showed me just "Acoustic Drum Kit Ro(ck)" on the screen. But after checking the full name of the drum set cause of the compression you mentioned I found out that my drums were still at the previous "Acoustic Drum Kit Rock Limited" preset - obviously a limited/compressed version of the rock drums.

I changed this and uploaded the fixed version with the uncompressed drum samples.

Here's the new version with the uncompressed rock drums:
----------------------------------------------------------------

https://soundcloud.com/master-mi/lufia-2-tyrant-breaker-master-mi-remix-version-15
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The soundtrack is so quiet compared to most modern music because I make my new tracks at the EBU R 128 loudness guideline for maximal dynamic range.
There you don't try to get the true peaks and the (often program loudness, too)  just close below 0 dB - instead you have a target/maximal level for the program loudness of about - 23 dB and the remaining headroom above in the master track you can use totally eased for the true peaks - so, no worries about using compressors or limiters for gaining loudness.

If EBU R 128 becomes an international standard within the next years all broadcasters will send their programs at this loudness standard - maybe it will also be like this in the internet/youtube etc.- so you can leave your volume wheel turned up all the time and enjoy the rising dynamics in the produced music you may listen to - just like in the lovely decades ago.
At the basis of EBU R 128 all tracks/programs could be uploaded and normalized at the same program loudness level - would be great if youtube and other internet providers would handle it like this - 'cause you could fully concentrate on the best dynamics instead on the "best undefined loudness".
Could be like this (if you're interested in the pretty smart and well thought-out EBU R 128 guideline) >>>

-------------

Besides - what do you mean with the low end clutter at the piano stuff? The pad sounds which are part this piano preset, maybe?
Makes the piano a bit more stronger and remaining in the hall as a contrast to the pretty strong bass lines.

And yeah, the composition of Zircon is absolutely awesome - but even there you can hear a pretty heavy compression of the drums that doesn't sound really clean/natural.
Compressed drums nearly always sound a bit dull and lifeless in a track (in relation to the sound quality).


 

[timaeus222]

The drums sound not overcompressed now, so that's good. However, I would call them dull-sounding, tonally, since they lack punch in a ReMix that likely is supposed to sound punchy. By now you can guess that I would suggest adding (parallel) compression to add punch so that your drums are more powerful. It's true that the previous drum preset had poor compression, but that's because of the settings themselves, not because of compression in and of itself. If you actually compressed the drums yourself, then you would have more control and thus, if you knew how you could optimally apply compression, I bet you wouldn't be as against it as you are today.

On 7/27/2015 at 1:34 PM, Master Mi said:

Besides - what do you mean with the low end clutter at the piano stuff? The pad sounds which are part this piano preset, maybe?
Makes the piano a bit more stronger and remaining in the hall as a contrast to the pretty strong bass lines.

And yeah, the composition of Zircon is absolutely awesome - but even there you can hear a pretty heavy compression of the drums that doesn't sound really clean/natural.
Compressed drums nearly always sound a bit dull and lifeless in a track (in relation to the sound quality).
 

The low cut on the reverb for the piano is low, or that pad you mentioned has noticeable frequencies below 200 Hz, so frequencies below 200 Hz are being reverberated, which clashes with the guitar and/or bass. (see 3:32 in your video)

"Makes the piano a bit more stronger and remaining in the hall as a contrast to the pretty strong bass lines."

I'm sorry, but this is kind of a bogus reason to substantiate why you made it that way. It literally sounds like you *want* the piano to compete with the bass (and come out on top). Honestly, I don't see any reason why you would intentionally create a soundscape that involves the combination of a bass and a reverbed layered piano/pad that obstructs the clarity of the bass frequencies (unless you aren't fully aware of the consequences of such a situation). Less clarity means that less people will be able to distinguish what's going on in the music (that should be intuitive). Remember that what you want to hear and what is actually the case are not necessarily the same thing. You should be listening in the effort of accurately hearing what is actually the case, and seeing how you might improve the mixing.

You can capably raise the low cut frequency for your reverb (provided you have that setting in it) so that the frequencies below 200 Hz are not affected by the reverb as much; then your bass will be clearer since that low frequency range will be less cluttered. Not hugely clearer, but clearer.

"Dull" and "lifeless" are very strong words (and everything you do with VST compression is in relation to the sound quality). And in fact, proper compression ADDS life and punch to drums, and what I hear from zircon's track is just that. That's why I even recommended that as your standard in compression. If compression "nearly always" makes drums more dull and lifeless, then unless the Beatles are the exception somehow to your "nearly always", the Beatles' drums would sound "a bit dull and lifeless". And I like the Beatles.

[Kat]

On 7/27/2015 at 2:16 PM, timaeus222 said:

The drums sound not overcompressed now, so that's good. However, I would call them dull-sounding, tonally, since they lack punch in a ReMix that likely is supposed to sound punchy.

 

 

This so much.  A definite improvement in sound, but not in sequencing. I still don't feel much power from them. The kick and snare seem a bit quiet compared to the high-hat, which is still in machine-gun mode. Again, I'd suggest adjusting the velocity and adding some variance to the drums as a whole. More fills, frills and all of the wonderfully chaotic loudness a rock/metal-ish mix deserves. And I really do feel like you could do so much better with the drums, both in terms of quality and content. There are quite a few good free or cheap drum libraries out there. If I may make a suggestion, have you looked at Sennheiser's FREE Drummic'a library? It's quite good and runs in Kontakt Player. There's also the recently released Shreddage Drums for the really low price of $119, also for Kontakt Player. Both would be excellent choices, I think.

 

Here, I threw this together using DrumMic'a as an example of what I'm talking about. Mind you it's a rather sloppy example and doesn't even get into half the options DrumMic'a makes available, but I think it gets my point across. Ignore the instrumentation. I don't have anything even close to suitable for this style of music, so I just used a few pianos as it's mostly about the percussion.

 

https://soundcloud.com/tesonael/l2-sinistral-drum-demo/s-9cgAR

 

 

I'd also focus less on the EBU R 128 loudness guideline, less on loudness, less on less compression and more on what sounds good. If you feel said guidelines suit your music that's fine, but don't let them interfere with your creative drive. It's perfectly possible to achieve a great dynamic range at any (reasonable) volume if you know what you're doing(I sure don't!).

[timaeus222]

I'm also going to provide a (heavy metal) example of drums/guitar/bass before and after compression so you can hear what I mean when I say the drums can be punchier (note that obviously I will be using a different kit; also, the only difference is the compression. The EQ and reverb is unchanged unless otherwise specified). I am also separating the heavy metal guitars and bass from the drums so you can focus on the individual instruments.

(The example is a recreation of part of my friend's retired band's metal songs)

EDIT:

https://app.box.com/s/pu67atb6l42147hy3fdz14j9xwjy2zoe

Included (with my remarks):

Drums (uncompressed, with EQ) --- Sounds pretty good, but consider that this is only in isolation, not in context.

Drums (compressed, with EQ) --- Louder, punchier, but consider that this is only in isolation, not in context.

Guitars+Bass (uncompressed, with EQ) --- Slightly quieter than the compressed one, but not much difference (pretty slight overall)

Guitars+Bass (compressed, with EQ) --- Not much difference, but I hear that the bass is more "well-defined" and the guitar has (very slightly) more upper harmonic; hardly noticeable to the ears, but noticeable to the eyes on a spectroscope

Everything (uncompressed, no EQ) --- Sounds completely imbalanced; the drums are buried and the guitars and bass are murky.

Everything (uncompressed, with EQ) --- Sounds better; guitars and bass are more audible, and most of the drum kit is actually noticeable in the song. However, the snare is still a bit buried

Everything (compressed, with EQ) --- Final result of compression + EQ. This is actually heavy, and you can hear the snare easily. YMMV on the drum kit prominence itself, but the point is that it's not buried.

Take it as you will, but that's the full list of what I think you need to consider to hear the differences I want to convey.

Whatever you take away from this, just know that I'm only trying to help, not pick on you.

[Master Mi]

I've made an update of my Lufia remix recently (the things I've changed within version 1.5 you can see in the upload description).
This time it also comes with a video that consists of in-game scenes of the final battles gainst the Sinistrals.

Here's the link of version 1.5:
>>>

>>> https://clyp.it/gmmrf0zz

[Master Mi]

As far as I'm not ready with the track yet I still wanted to show ya a small preview of the coming version.

The track is already completely overworked compared to the last version (1.5) and this preview contains a little deep melodious break apart from the heavy rock/metal tunes within the rest of the track that will go something over 7 minutes.
I'm still working on this part as well - but tell me how you like the rough conception of the calm break (before it will go in the heavy final part with the battle against Daos afterwards).
 

 

[MindWanderer]

I really like the new section, other than the peaked notes.  I do think it's far too long for the piece, though, derailing the mood for too long.

[Master Mi]

Thanks for the feedback. ))

And yeah, the guitar articulations of the clean electric guitar I still have to program for each note (they 're only step-sequenced for this review, so some notes might sound a bit off - but I'm glad I removed the slides before :DD).

The length of this part could be fitting - 'cause the whole track might go about 7 minutes and the rest of the track will contain some heavy rock/metal stuff. So this calm, mystical part could be an adequate break before the heavy musical final with the battle against Daos kicks in.

I'm still unsure if I add some drums in this melodic section of the preview - but I feel that this part without drums and with lots of melodic synths and VSTIs instead has its own charme somehow.