Writing Lyrics...

[SwordBreaker]

I debated whether I put this here or in the general discussion, but...

Anyway, I'm not asking for an English lecture here. Just a few of questions:

1) About cheesiness...when do you classify lyrics to be "cheesy"? Bad or typical rhymes? When they're about a theme we already heard about a million times (aka Love)? When They're sung in a weird way? I remember David mentioning "good cheese" when in his review of "Lover Reef".

2) Does it have to rhyme? I mean...ALWAYS rhyme from verse to verse? I mean...it technically doesn't have to mimic poetry rules even though it's better when it does. But...doesn't that sometimes result in some cheesiness? I think that as long the lyrics have a good flow and a variety of nice words (aka Ardency in Darangen's Falling Back), it can be good, right?

[Chavous]

I have a built in indicator of "cheesiness". I don't know about everyone else, but I get this feeling of disgust and I get chills and goose bumps, the whole nine yards when something cheesy is said.

But yes, cliches, bad rhymes, and all of that adds to "cheesiness" of lyrics. No, they don't have to rhyme, but it is easier and sometimes more effective.

But take this for example:

http://www.exitclov.com/lyrics/beastsimoneh1.php

This song is amazing, the lyrics flow like any other song...but there are very very few rhymes in it. Very few, in fact I think there are only three. And if I didn't tell you that, it would've probably taken you to the second or third times listening to it to pick up on that fact.

So, there is no set "cheesiness" level. But you need to go with your best judgement on the matter.

[Villainelle]

1) About cheesiness...when do you classify lyrics to be "cheesy"?

That is dependent on context and subjectivity, like all art. What may sound "cheesy" to you may be uplifting, hilarious, boring, etc. to someone else. The emotional impact of a song is as complex as the human beings listening to it; you can't dictate what response it will evoke. Delivery and context also color the actual text, so what may look "cheesy" to you on paper may come off with a surprisingly different attitude when sung/accompanied by music.

Generally I don't think a song with lyrics will get called "cheesy" in this community unless it is clearly and deliberately tongue-in-cheek. Otherwise I think most listeners here harbor respect for things outside their comfort zone, and will remain open and try to relate to a piece of music however they can. This is assuming you're nervous about your lyrics being called "cheesy."

2) Does it have to rhyme? I mean...ALWAYS rhyme from verse to verse? I mean...it technically doesn't have to mimic poetry rules even though it's better when it does.

Have you read much poetry? If you're trying to write lyrics, you should. Pre-19th Century English-language poetry put a lot of emphasis on form and structure, which is the stuff people tend to be exposed to in high school. This kind of poetry usually has tight rhyming schemes and rigid syllable counts etc. In the 21st Century, a lot of these implicit guidelines of traditional poetry have been shattered. Poetry now is a messy, obnoxious, wild and free beast. Modern poets regularly ignore traditional forms and rhymes, even deliberately skew the actual form and placement of words/letters on the page itself (e.g., e.e. cummings), and so on.

It sounds like you have a somewhat shallow view of what poetry is, and lyrics are essentially just poetry that has a second musical dimension. The answer is no, your lyrics don't have to rhyme. If you are doing a genre piece (e.g. rap) and aiming for contemporary authenticity, you should try to mimic the traditional elements of that type of music--in other words, a rap remix should probably have rhymes. Most styles of rock, on the other hand, are less lyrically stylized and will work with anything from the typical rhyming punk rock verse-chorus-verse, to the rambling disconnected lines of hard rock/metal.

My advice is to write the music first. If lyrics come to you during composition, note them down, but don't get hung up on the lyrics and allow them to dictate the music. The exception to this as mentioned above is rap, where lyrics (usually) do come first.

I'm a writer (music is the hobby I use to escape from it ) and would be happy to give you more advice once you've actually got something down. I suggest you don't worry too much about rules and forms, and just allow your muse to lead you. Write the music, let the words come to you, and post it for us to listen to. Lyrics especially need musical context for full appreciation, understanding, and criticism.

-Leah

[OverCoat]

June Moon Swoon Spoon Saloon

I need halp too but that's okay I'll just make DragonAvenger write all the lyrics.

[SwordBreaker]

Thanks Chavous and Leah. Very nice posts there, especially Leah's.

I have to admit, I haven't been exposed to poetry like you mentioned, Leah. But I love to write; stories, fanfiction, and professional game reviews/articles (which what I'm currently doing most of my time). I also read novels. But no poetry. All I remember from high school is taking The Merchant of Venice and that's it...it's sad, I know...but that's what you get for learning English as a second language.

I'll let you know once I start on something, Leah. Keep an eye out for me.

[The Vagrance]

What I do for writing lyrics is to just write down what first comes to mind, the take out, add, etc. as needed. Of course, there is no magic way to write lyrics, but try not to travel the beaten path in both presentation AND actual words. There are probably a million and a half songs about heartbreak but a lot of them are unique in presentation alone which makes each song beautiful in its own right.

As for cheesiness, the best way I can describe cheesiness is attempting to be deep while using extremely simple terms, in sad songs it usually simplistic questioning ("Why must I cry?"). Of course, as Leah said earlier, what one person may see as cheesy others will see as happy, sad, etc.. Another thing about cheesiness in lyrics is a lot of lyrics will seem incredibly cheesy when on paper, but when presented they can contain intense power. A lot of rap music does this, turning seemingly average lyrics into powerful statements, its all in the presentation. The best example of this I can think of is during one of the VH1 Hip-Hop honors they honored the Beastie Boys, and instead of the Beastie's performing one of their own songs they had 3 other rappers do it (Diddy, Q-Tip, and Fabolous IIRC), and it was terrible, then right after them came on the real Beastie Boys and they absolutely killed it all because of attitude. This applies to all types of music too. Have you ever read aloud one of your favorite songs' lyrics? It can sound terrible but when its performed it sounds great. Well, I think I've beaten this horse to death so I wouldn't worry about it.

I don't think lyrics have to rhyme, even extending to rap music. Rhyming shows some skill with wordplay but its not necessary. Rhyming makes things more accessible and predictable as one can begin guessing how the next set of words will go along knowing it rhymes with the previous word you ended with but once again, its not necessary.

Overall, just don't worry too much about what everyone else expects out of your lyrics, try not to force it, and just let it flow. Writing in any shape or form gives people the ability to express themselves to the fullest and if you put effort into it you'll find your audience. Everyone here will be open and supportive so don't be too afraid to post anything, besides, we're all faceless people on this forum so no need to take anything too personally.

but that's what you get for learning English as a second language.

Woah, don't be afraid to incorporate your native language into your songwriting either, its a unique tool that not people have to ability to do.

Anyway, good luck with your lyric-writing.

[SwordBreaker]

but that's what you get for learning English as a second language.

Woah, don't be afraid to incorporate your native language into your songwriting either, its a unique tool that not people have to ability to do.

Anyway, good luck with your lyric-writing.

Hey...that's a pretty interesting idea. I could do that...it's going to sound weird...but heck, it can produce some unique sounds as well. Arabic is my native language in case you're wondering.

Nice post, Vagrance. Thanks.