Looking for a collab partner

[Fray]

This is freaking sweet. The only thing that stands out to me as something I don't think I'd want is the amount of reverb that's on the vocals. Definitely want it to be that much is a few key places, but the entire thing being echoy seems kinda strange to me. If I remember correctly, I think Sixto put about that much reverb on the vocals in his last version too. Does metal usually have that much on it?

As for the ear fatigue, I TOTALLY know what you mean, and I think it all started over here from my side. I think it might be the kind of distortion I used. I'm not entirely sure, but my ears feel like they're lacking mid when listening to this. So I guess you could try giving the guitars more mid. I too would REALLY love to get rid of that ear fatigue. I'm sure that would be a pretty big deal to the judges too. The guys that did Cursed Bloodline had a sound that pretty heavy and your ears never got tired. I wonder how they did it.

Hey thanks for checking the mix out so quickly.

I definitely made the reverb very "audible" on a lot of the vocals, like the battle commands "bring the armor", etc.. If that's not something you like artistically I'll scale it back in the next version, that's cool. The death grunts really don't have much reverb on them -- one of the differences between headphones and speakers is that reverb levels seem higher on phones. I've been mixing on speakers, so I'll check it on phones and make sure it doesn't sound too excessive. I don't think it's something you typically do in metal.

I'll give cursed bloodline a listen and see if I can match its tone color a bit better. I will try boosting the mids, but I think that can actually make it worse too. Maybe I need to bump down the highs on the guitars, I haven't really tried that yet.

[The Legendary Zoltan]

I leave it in your capable hands. I'm thinking it's all my distortion's fault. I hope not though.

Yeah, even aside from the echo aspect of the reverb, I think the vocals sound a bit distant, even on my speakers. Thanks.

[Tensei]

Fray, I think I might have found what's causing the ear-tiring. The bass-drum sounds kind of overcompressed and overcompression tends to be one of the causes of ear-tiring. It's amplified by the fact that the bass-drums fills the lower end almost constantly because of the fast rolls. Usually this is solved by the bass-drum having a really punchy attack and a soft decay so there's not so much strain on the ears because of the dynamic difference.

For the rest, I gotta say I love your version, I've been following the development of this song for quite some time, and I have to say you did an awesome job on bringing the best of the vocals out, it sounds very dramatic and really vikingish now. =P

[The Legendary Zoltan]

you did an awesome job on bringing the best of the vocals out, it sounds very dramatic and really vikingish now. =P

And that's EXACTLY what I'm going for. Vikingish. The song is about Ragnarok coming and it's sung partly from the point of view of a viking who was there and that what I want it to reflect.

[Fray]

Fray, I think I might have found what's causing the ear-tiring. The bass-drum sounds kind of overcompressed and overcompression tends to be one of the causes of ear-tiring. It's amplified by the fact that the bass-drums fills the lower end almost constantly because of the fast rolls. Usually this is solved by the bass-drum having a really punchy attack and a soft decay so there's not so much strain on the ears because of the dynamic difference.

For the rest, I gotta say I love your version, I've been following the development of this song for quite some time, and I have to say you did an awesome job on bringing the best of the vocals out, it sounds very dramatic and really vikingish now. =P

Thanks for the advice and compliment I will try that out -- so what you're getting at is to try to shorten the decay of the kick drum? I guess backing off the compression would effectively do that.

Edit: I think you nailed it, sir. I was blaming the guitars and didn't think to check the kick drum. Muting it reduced the ear fatigue right away, so that's a good sign it's to blame. I actually wasn't compressing it in the conventional sense (although the tape sim does kinda put some compression in there), so I'm fiddling around with an expander w/really short attack and release times, plus just turning the track down. Seems to work well.

Edit 2: I had even more success just using a shelving equalizer to lower the high frequencies of the kick. I also took a little big of the top end out of the guitars (allowing me to restore some of the mids I'd unnecessarily removed).

[The Legendary Zoltan]

OH! Since I think I did some compression before-hand on those drums, you might need to make a new one from the drum MIDI, if it doesn't go as well as you planned.

[Fray]

OH! Since I think I did some compression before-hand on those drums, you might need to make a new one from the drum MIDI, if it doesn't go as well as you planned.

Ok I might try that out. Seems like I'm having to chop out too much of the top end to get rid of the effect (i.e. the kick sounds like a dull "whup", no snap at all).

I also had some success with the long 16th note runs on the kick (those are the biggest problem I think) with automation -- I let them go at full force for a measure or so and then gradually pull the volume back. At that point your ear already knows the kick is there and what it's doing, so it doesn't need to be reminded at full force to hear what's going on. That's the idea at least

[The Legendary Zoltan]

. . . ? Sounds dramatic. Hahaha.

[The Legendary Zoltan]

I just wanted to remind all you great remixers, Legion, Fray, Sixto, and Suzumebachi (Fishy said he was "up for some metal" so perhaps he's making something too) that the original deadline we decided on (well, I decided on) of November 18th will be here in about 10 days. If you'd like and extension, then I need to hear it directly from your lips/keyboard. If everybody's just fine, then I'll be looking forward to hearing your final versions on November 18th. Thanks a lot guys.

[Fishy]

Oh shit, totally forgot abomut this . I'm still in.

[The Legendary Zoltan]

Oh sweet. Thanks, Fishy! I look forward to hearing what you do with it. If you want feedback on what I like and stuff, you can post it here and I'll tell you anything you want to know.

^______________________________________^

[Fray]

Chipp, did you deliberately pan the vocals around? I noticed the death grunts in particular seem to move to the right quite a bit during certain parts. I'm gonna center them unless it's something you were going for intentionally.

Edit: on second thought I think it's something I goofed up. Nevermind

[The Legendary Zoltan]

Chipp, did you deliberately pan the vocals around? I noticed the death grunts in particular seem to move to the right quite a bit during certain parts. I'm gonna center them unless it's something you were going for intentionally.

Edit: on second thought I think it's something I goofed up. Nevermind

Yeah, I don't remember doing that. Hahaha. You can pan them to your liking. . . Except 100% left.

[Fray]

Got a new version for you to check out. I think I'm pretty much closing in on the final release here. For one thing I'd like to know if you're satisfied with the overall loudness of the mix -- I've tried to keep a good bit of dynamic range in it for now... From here I can compress, etc., to get the volume up, but the more of that I do the more the dynamics suffer. It's metal though, so I can understand if you want it louder!

http://www.winter-light.net/nbmont/Valkyriemix_Fray_v10.mp3

Edit: I'm still going to make it louder than this no matter what, I'm just trying to get an idea of how much louder you need.

[The Legendary Zoltan]

Got a new version for you to check out. I think I'm pretty much closing in on the final release here. For one thing I'd like to know if you're satisfied with the overall loudness of the mix -- I've tried to keep a good bit of dynamic range in it for now... From here I can compress, etc., to get the volume up, but the more of that I do the more the dynamics suffer. It's metal though, so I can understand if you want it louder!

This is really interesting. I was wondering what you were talking about when you mentioned dynamics since I didn't change my guitar sound anywhere during recording, but now I see what's up. I think the way the volume suddenly changes when when entering the part that occurs right after "raining down from Heaven" is too dramatic. It gets noticeably quiet all of a sudden. and then about ten seconds later the guitars start "growing." Hahaha! Also the vocals are pretty small compared to the drums in the final verse at the end of the song. The drum explosions got way bigger, I see. Hahaha. Other than that, my only main concern is that the sound of the overall thing, or perhaps just the guitars, became WAY lighter. Did you remove a bunch of bass or something? That, and the new bass drum has got to be way fatter too. I think the ear fatigue that you were able to eliminate came from me drastically compressing the bass drum so that I could make it a whole lot louder. I definitely don't want the ear-fatigue, but if it's possible to "flesh out" that bass drum (I can't beLIEVE I just said that!) in some way, I'd be oh-so delighted.

On the good side, your choice of sound on the lead guitars is freaking BEAUTIFUL to me. The vocals also sound freaking bad ass. I'm sure you've made a lot of other changes to the sound that I can't distinguish very well because I'm a production n00b, but to be annoyingly honest, I liked version 5 better. But I think that if the volume thing, bass drum thing, and overall heaviness thing were all cleared up, I'd say otherwise.

What do you think about all that stuff, man?

[Fray]

This is really interesting. I was wondering what you were talking about when you mentioned dynamics since I didn't change my guitar sound anywhere during recording, but now I see what's up. I think the way the volume suddenly changes when when entering the part that occurs right after "raining down from Heaven" is too dramatic. It gets noticeably quiet all of a sudden. and then about ten seconds later the guitars start "growing." Hahaha! Also the vocals are pretty small compared to the drums in the final verse at the end of the song. The drum explosions got way bigger, I see. Hahaha. Other than that, my only main concern is that the sound of the overall thing, or perhaps just the guitars, became WAY lighter. Did you remove a bunch of bass or something? That, and the new bass drum has got to be way fatter too. I think the ear fatigue that you were able to eliminate came from me drastically compressing the bass drum so that I could make it a whole lot louder. I definitely don't want the ear-fatigue, but if it's possible to "flesh out" that bass drum (I can't beLIEVE I just said that!) in some way, I'd be oh-so delighted.

On the good side, your choice of sound on the lead guitars is freaking BEAUTIFUL to me. The vocals also sound freaking bad ass. I'm sure you've made a lot of other changes to the sound that I can't distinguish very well because I'm a production n00b, but to be annoyingly honest, I liked version 5 better. But I think that if the volume thing, bass drum thing, and overall heaviness thing were all cleared up, I'd say otherwise.

What do you think about all that stuff, man?

I'm still using the same kick drum actually, just EQ'd very differently and turned down. Hopefully I can switch a new one in that I can turn up more with less ear fatigue -- unfortunately I can't do that until Sonar 7 shows up in the mail I forgot to set the tempo before I started chopping up the tracks (vocals especially) so I could process different parts of them. 7 has a feature that lets you change the tempo without screwing all that up, and I should get it this week. Anyway I'll try to get more whump out of it once I have MIDI powers again!

Yeah I did a lot of automation on the guitars, and for the most part you're not supposed to notice it -- I'll make the dip after "raining down from heaven" more subtle. Main reason for this was to combat ear fatigue and to give the climactic parts more energy. Another source of fatigue btw was the highs (7+ kHz) in the guitars, so I automated a treble cut and took those down when I could get away with it (hopefully you couldn't tell except for the fact that you didn't go as deaf listening to it).

I might replace the bass guitar too. IMO the sample sounds kinda cheesy and really ruins the authentic death metal setting offered by the real guitars, live vocals, and (relatively) convincing drums. So I've been trying to hide it, and that may have caused of some of the lack of heaviness like you said.

So! The next version will have a more powerful kick, better and louder bass, and an overall heavier sound I can see what you mean that it's gotten a bit wimpy.

Glad you like the vocals and lead guitars.

[The Legendary Zoltan]

All I can say is, Wow. Thanks man. I don't see why you can't use the drums from the original midi to make a new bass drum. The tempos and all that should match up right?

I hope all the other guys are doing ok. I can't wait to hear what you've all got. I haven't heard anything for a while, but if you need an extension, please tell me.

[Fray]

All I can say is, Wow. Thanks man. I don't see why you can't use the drums from the original midi to make a new bass drum. The tempos and all that should match up right?

Hehe, I didn't get Sonar 7 for that purpose alone, I was getting it one way or another You know I might be able to use the MIDI as is if I had it scale the tempo or something somehow. I'd give it a shot but sonar 7 came in the mail today ^.^

[Legion303]

I haven't heard anything for a while, but if you need an extension, please tell me.

I posted v0.2 but didn't get feedback.

I haven't worked on it much since then. I don't think I need an extension yet. Due to the loud environment control system at work I can't do much with it there, even with headphones. So the earliest I'll be able to do anything other than tonight would be Monday...

-steve

[The Legendary Zoltan]

Oh, Legion, did I miss one?! I'm sorry. Let me go check it out!

[The Legendary Zoltan]

Oh yeah, I remember this. I remember not saying anything, because I didn't think there was anything wrong with it at all. In fact, it still sounds kinda like my original in my opinion, which is cool. So I definitely should have said that this is cool, so that you'd know. Sorry about that. The only thing that I think is not for me (which everybody seems to want to do) is the amount of reverb on the vocals. I think it could be like half of what it is. Fray and Sixto's versions had the same thing. I wonder if that's the standard for vocals or something. Anyway, I feel like there's something missing, and I wonder if it might be bass in the overall mix. I'm not sure to be honest, but I'm listening to it and sort of wishing it was a bit heavier. I also think the changes in the volumes on the main lead section in the middle that Fray did were a good idea and would recommend that for all of the remixers now. If I had to pick two things that kick ass about your remix, I'd say it's your sweet harmony notes that you added on that solo at 3:43 and the bass drum sound. Those harmony notes sound really freaking nice right there, perhaps much better than simply adding chorus like I requested. And your bass drum sings to me man. I don't get much ear-fatigue like Fray was having some troubles with and it's freaking heavy and I can totally hear it at every moment of the song. The snare is kind of "non-intrusive" which is good, too.

I'm freaking sorry I didn't reply to you. I wish you would have said something earlier. If you want more time, of course it's granted.

[Fray]

Okay, new version up. New bass and kick. Much, much heavier this time, and louder (I went ahead and did a little bit of peak limiting, more than I really like actually ). Is there still too much reverb on the vocals? Is the volume automation ever distracting? Anything else?

http://www.winter-light.net/nbmont/Valkyriemix_Fray_v12.mp3

[Fishy]

I just wanted to remind all you great remixers, Legion, Fray, Sixto, and Suzumebachi (Fishy said he was "up for some metal" so perhaps he's making something too) that the original deadline we decided on (well, I decided on) of November 18th will be here in about 10 days. If you'd like and extension, then I need to hear it directly from your lips/keyboard. If everybody's just fine, then I'll be looking forward to hearing your final versions on November 18th. Thanks a lot guys.

I've actually just bought Logic Studio, but I'm still waiting on my Macbook Pro to arrive, and the thought of mastering this many wavs in FL is not a happy one on my current PC. I'll try and get it there as soon as I can, but if you already have something awesome (as I'm sure you will) then thats cool.

[The Legendary Zoltan]

I've actually just bought Logic Studio, but I'm still waiting on my Macbook Pro to arrive, and the thought of mastering this many wavs in FL is not a happy one on my current PC. I'll try and get it there as soon as I can, but if you already have something awesome (as I'm sure you will) then thats cool.

No that's fine, man. Legion caught a vicious head cold and can't listen to anything bassy right now so he asked for another week which I granted. So go ahead and try what you want to try man.

[The Legendary Zoltan]

Okay, new version up. New bass and kick. Much, much heavier this time, and louder (I went ahead and did a little bit of peak limiting, more than I really like actually ). Is there still too much reverb on the vocals? Is the volume automation ever distracting? Anything else?

http://www.winter-light.net/nbmont/Valkyriemix_Fray_v12.mp3

Your mix is really sweet man. It's interesting to me how the snare drum sounds cool in the entire mix, but just those 1st beats sound all echoy and funny to me. Other than that, I liked the sound you had for the solo at 3:07 on your previous version better. It sounded less "muffled" if you will. Also, from 3:30 you can turn up the rhythm guitar a little bit more. I'd like to hear it blend with the lead a bit. Did you add a phase shifting effect at 4:33? I like it. I'd like it to be even more audible actually. Vocals might be a bit too quiet on the final verse and on the part starting at 1:00. The only other thing I'd like is some more chorus (or whatever effect it would take to make it sound like 3 or more people singing) on the words, Ragnarok at 2:18 and Einherjar at 2:24 and maybe not chorus, but just bassier EQ or something on "You have been chosen by Odin." The chorus doesn't seem to be working for me. Sorry I'm so damn picky. Legion requested another week so it's granted for everyone now.