Kidd Cabbage

No, I thought it was unique, just like how some strength heroes are some of the best nukers in the game.

I think I'm the only one who doesn't like the new heart. I don't like how it forces differences between types of heroes. I'd rather have it be a toggle, like Steamboots. Heroes like Zephyr (agi) and Defiler (int) would much rather have the strength buff of regen than their own, and strength heroes like Predator and Pestilence would much rather have the agility buff of damage.

Well, I think if it drained health, too, then it would be way too overpowered. I'm worried enough that it already is overpowered!

If you're looking to learn new heroes, then why bother with SD? Just go AR so your opponents don't have a chance to play heroes that they know better than yours (or counter it).

That heart is hax. Sounds like it's going to be the thing to get on everyone.

Standard build on Chronos since Dota of old is Elder Parasite and Wingbow. That's all he needs to dominate. In other news, I'm surprised to see so much drama going on in this game. I figured that most people in [OCR] were pals or something, and here I've been trying to get along with everyone. But I've still had people insulting me and my friends from my old clan (we only pick easy heroes), and the only scuffle I've sort of gotten into was because I told someone not to leave games anymore because it ruins the game for the rest of the people playing. Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I agree. People need to stop being so critical and whiny about the game. I don't mind losing that much, but I hate having people being negative all game. "Ah, this game is fucking lame," and conceding before anything actually happens at 15 minutes. I mean, I love playing with Luke - he's very new, and more often than not feeds the other team, but he's a real friendly, positive guy that makes playing with him fun, and I'd rather play with him any day than some of the other people who are so negative and critical when we play together, no matter how good they are.

Well, more worrisome than getting into position is using a shroud to escape. If you run in invisible, they wouldn't know you're there in the first place, so they wouldn't be shooting AoE at you anyway. If you're trying to get out, they might think to do that. I like shroud much better than blink on him, since shroud offers a way to position yourself, like blink, but you can't use blink to escape. The money you spend on HP to back that up would be much better spent on some damage items so you're more than just an ult.

Soulstealer is very popular, actually. His downside, though, is how fragile he is. Assassin's Shroud is really handy on him so he can escape, then, and get in position for his ult.

You guys missed it. We played against S2 staff. So I Mesmerized Tensei to his doom.

Then go play EM.

Yeah, I agree, and that's part of what makes HoN/Dota strategy what it is. The game is balanced on the principle of ganks being so important. If ganking wasn't as hindering to them and beneficial to you, people wouldn't opt to leave lanes so early for ganks, nor would people really have to worry about dying as much. There wouldn't be as easy of a counter to Arachna or Chronos without being able to gimp them early on. It would just tilt the table even more in the direction of farming heroes.

u wan b frends

So, I'm just going to but in and argue some more and just get out there that I really disagree with most of zircon's tier list. It seems to me like a lot of the higher tiered heroes are ones that you might have a hard time countering, personally, and the lower-tiered ones can be amazing, and playing mostly in-house, you just haven't seen them played well. I'm not saying I could play them, but I've seen Ophelias (one of the hardest characters to actually play right) that can crush almost entire teams in midgame team fights, and you obviously have just had some terrible Keeper of the Forest experiences. My point is that most heroes have almost the same opportunity to do well for their team as others, depending on the player controlling them. The game is much more balanced than you're giving it credit for, and some heroes and countering them is just something based on playstyle or learning specifically different than others. If I had to do a tier list, I would probably have three tiers - one for most heroes, ones that could use a slight buff, and ones that could use a slight nerf - and that's pushing it. I just think you're basing your tiers too much on the skills of those that you play with often and your own skills.

YES LICH YES! Two other things: 1) You could orbwalk with Viper's slow, as well. 2) zircon, I just think that you weren't using Nymph to her full potential. With her, early game, you are 100% support. Her stun is useless until level 4, so, I always get grace maxed first with the heal second, so I can mana feed my teammate constantly. I rarely even use pod, just so I can use my mana for grace, and it really screws over the opposing laners if you're with someone like Pebbles, Behemoth, Zeus, any nuker, really. Late game, she is all about items. Funny enough, I like Dagon on her - you're never too oom to use it. And Froststeel Plate is excellent on her, no matter who's playing. I've gone on Champion of Newerth streaks with Nymph. She's just very team, item, and player dependent.

I typed out like half of list of name changes only to think that someone had probably already done that for me. http://borkweb.com/story/heroes-of-newerth-dota-hero-equivalents

Well, if you see me on and care to invite me in, if I'm in a game, I don't mind you whispering me, asking my status. If I'm in a lobby, I'll probably leave, and if I'm at the end of a game, I'll let you know. IRC is totally for nerds and stuff. Plus, I don't have it installed.

I haven't played one in-house game since I started HoN.

Man, I'm getting really frustrated with my PSR. The first bit I played, I was rusty, so my PSR fell from 1500 to 1400. Since then, I've been trying to get back above 1500, but I've been teaching some friends how to play, which has been making it much more difficult, and the games that I have been playing by myself, I've had the worst luck, despite playing well, personally. Last game, for instance, as Nymph, I had a Champion of Newerth streak, saved more heroes than I can count, took towers by myself, and we still lost... and that game brought me below 1300. I'm disgusted looking at my score.

What I'm saying, though, is that there are heroes that are better, and that's what the heroes are designed to do - kill other heroes. I just got out of a game as Slither, where I went 14-1-20, and killed Arachna more times than I can count on one hand. Should he be banned, too? It all comes down to the skill and judgment of the people playing.

I guess I'm just wondering what the problem is. There are heroes like Arachna who are designed to hunt down other heroes and (hopefully) kill them, and ganks like that are a very integral part of the game. Is it just that they're ganking too much with the hero? Hell, Swiftblade and Night Hound are easier to gank with and harder to deal with than Arachna. But anyway, it's not really my business, since I'm not in any of these games to begin with. It just seems kind of silly to me.

Looks like someone got owned by Arachna one too many times.

So, I know it's gotta seem like I'm just trying to argue everything you say at this point, but those arguments definitely have validity. The first argument definitely is valid, since certain characters scale much better than others. Take Arachna and Pyromancer, give them both 20 levels and 8k gold. Arachna has Steamboots and a Wingbow. Pyromancer has Enchanted Marchers and a Sacrificial Stone. Arachna benefits from her farm much more than Pyromancer does, since items that boost her attack speed also boost her attack power, she has a built in snare, and she has an aura that scales her damage even more, and what does Pyro have? The same nukes he's had all game and bigger pools and more regen. How much certain heroes benefit from items generally has to do with how well they can carry and how much of a "farmer" they are (EDIT: Other way around, actually. How well they can carry has to do with how much they benefit from items. Worded it backwards.). And going off this, Pyro doesn't need about goddamn anything to own around the 20 minute mark. You could give him a pair of boots and a bottle and he'll still be in his prime. Whether or not a hero *can* farm up until they're owning is another story, though - where, for instance, Chronos sucks. And to the latter argument, yeah, there is usually a way to counter any hero, but the thought is generally "at what cost?" You take Night Hound, and someone says "You can counter him with wards." That's 200 gold for two wards. Now, you take Pebbles, who has a buttload of armor, health, and stuns, and what does it cost to counter that? 6000 gold for a Wingbow to take him down? There are just different heroes and some are very easily countered, but there's not much you can do to counter Glacius's mana aura or Pebbles's living forever that costs 200 gold.

She also has a pretty high Agility gain for an intellect hero, meaning more attack speed. Another reason why she works so well as a carry hero is that both her blink and bat buy a lot of time for straight up DPS. While her nukes decline late-game, assuming you were able to farm earlier with her nukes and not die, using her blink, it's not hard to get DPS items to compliment her slow and blink.

Wretched Hag can still rape if you can farm up on the midgame ganks. She's one of the few heroes that can make really, really good use of Frostwolf Skull, and she rules with it. Midgame, she relies more on her nukes, but if you can farm up damage items like Frostwolf Skull and a Savage Mace, she can really own late game. It sounds like you're comparing her to nukers, when she does better as an endgame carry. If anyone's awake, and wants to play some matches, I'm logging on.

No way, dude. Pebbles' Enlarge slows his melee speed by a lot a lot. He is not a melee hero by any means, and if it wasn't for the improvements to his other skills, Enlarge isn't very great (in Dota, most Tiny players wouldn't even get Growth until level 10 and 11.) And Behemoth, dude - his bread and butter move, Fissure, is absolutely not melee range. His later game moves are, but by then you have a blink dagger, and either way, are still nukes, not attacks. They're both early game nukers who are useful mostly for stuns and tanking late game, somewhat similar to Kraken. And Epitaph, if you need a beta key, I could get you one.