zircon

When I was in my first year at Drexel, I was definitely having a bit of a hard time socially, and a little depressed (typical college student.) My roommates were all awful and I couldn't relate to people in my classes. So I began playing WoW more and more. It was very much an escape because in WoW, I was "Arendor", the guild's best healer and eventually, the guild leader. The people I played with online were not like the people around me IRL. I would definitely call my freshman self addicted - I logged thousands of hours on that game that I wish I had back.

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But SS's best role in a team fight IS his ult. Sort of like Tempest. You might as well say Legionnaire, Behemoth and Tempest should all use Shroud also. The point is to get IN a fight, getting out is less important. But the best reason is what I said before. Invis can be COUNTERED easily. If they see your team is coming, you're obviously gonna be close too, and they'll activate dust or buy an eye.

Yeah, I often use Shroud, but it's more expensive and basically requires that you have a Shrunken Head. Otherwise you can still be nailed with AOE attacks, silences and disables as you're getting into position. Also, if they have dust, wards, a tower or a Bound Eye... you're out of luck

Stupid according to who? They are printing hundreds of millions of dollars a year from WoW. D2 is old and releasing a new patch is not going to generate even a fraction of that.

Why don't more people play Soulstealer? He seems to me to be one of the best all-around carries/nukers in the game. A 300 damage AOE nuke that costs 75 mana and can be chained up to three times and doesn't require LoS in and of itself is awesome - he can farm entire creep waves up until the very end for just 150 mana. His Soulsteal basically gives him a passive +60 damage which is amazing, and combined with his -5 armor aura means he can go toe to toe with almost anyone. However, his ult is just ludicrous; 160 damage per two souls, meaning 15x160 damage is possible - and it debuffs/snares too!

Admittedly I didn't understand exactly how it worked. From my perspective it was like Voodoo's stun except with ludicrous damage. It's still overpowered, IMO, but not banworthy.

I understand the importance of choosing between killing your creeps or the enemy ones. However, the only reason last-hitting even exists as a mechanic is because of the natural limitations and scope of the WC3 engine. They simply didn't have any other choice. That's why I kind of find it silly that everyone is defending it so vehemently when it wasn't even a design choice to begin with. It was just something that HAD to exist. Putting in a random test of manual skill to see if you can get the very last hit is out of place in a game that is all about tactical thinking and knowing what to do (plus where and when.) Bladiator is absolutely right that it's ridiculous to have the first part of the game consist of your guy basically just standing there doing nothing and occasionally swinging. Doesn't anyone else see that this doesn't add any tactical value whatsoever? You can have the choice without forcing it to rely on last hits. Yes, she is good, but imbalanced? I don't think so. Her biggest strength is her ult which can be canceled. Still very unimpressed with this hero from all my times playing against her. Oh wow, a long stun that requires the target to be completely away from any friendly heroes or creeps in order to hit properly. If the target is in that situation, they're dead anyway. Swap is nice, but you have to sacrifice yourself to do it. I'd rather have somebody like Tempest or Kraken who can disable/warp the entire team. If we're basing strength on how good they are lategame, then I guess no early gankers/roamers are any good? That's silly. Certainly a great hero, but best? No. Thunderbringer or Succu is probably best INT. Defiler can disable an entire team with AOE silence and her push is better than wards. Voodoo is very mana intensive and has no escapes or slows. If you know Keeper is on the enemy team you can just spread out. Other heroes have insane AOE ults as well, such as Kraken and Tempest. Besides his ult he sucks. His eyes are just like wards except more easily disabled, his invis can be countered with a 180 gold item, and his damage buff is laughable. Trading all your utility for a long-cooldown spell is not worth it.

Higher damage characters already have an advantage last-hitting, hence why Soulstealer is great at it and why Logger's Axe is excellent. It's not like you'll get any MORE experience (in total) than you would vs. the last-hit mechanic. It just distributes it more evenly, so instead of all-or-nothing, you might get in-between. But it's impossible for you to get more than you would before. I don't see how this removes any strategy at all. Now, instead of farming XP by just being around enemies you're not even hitting, you HAVE to actually do something to earn it.

The majority of SF4 players play high-tier SF4 characters. At a high level, Sagat is not really better than other high-tier characters. However, in Capcom vs. SNK2, Blanka and Honda are overpowered. Everyone plays just those two. If Demo is the only overpowered (high tier) character then everyone would play him. Most people don't intentionally handicap themselves; most people like to win.

Again this isn't really an argument for why it's a great game design decision / mechanic that shouldn't be touched. HoN is not DotA - if people just want to play DotA, they can play that, it's still a fine game. HoN has already branched off and so it can be tweaked more. Sure, but I have no problem with the concept of denying, really. It's just the concept of having to get that last little sliver of life yourself to have any effect. Let's say a creep now gives 60 xp. Why not have it so that you get.. 100%/60 = 1.667 XP per 1% of damage you do to the creep? To prevent crap like hitting Kongor once and running, you could say that you don't gain any XP for the first 25%, and then at the very end, the last 25% is double XP. Basically this would have the same effect on balance, and the tactical decisions are still the same (do you attack your own creeps? the enemy creeps? the enemy heroes?) but it removes the stupid element of getting no credit unless you get the last hit.

Yep. Can anyone really come up with an argument besides "that's the way it is"? I just think changing the mechanics around so it isn't so focused on last hitting/denying would make the game more interesting. For example, perhaps you gain XP per hit, thus if you do lots of damage to creeps, you get lots of XP. Denying could still be a tactical choice (just attack your own creeps) and so could attacking enemy heroes (maybe this would not give XP, only when you kill, as it is now.)

If Demoman is so overpowered, then everyone would play him and all Demomen would be just as effective. However, I've seen very crappy Demomen. I'd say it is easier to play Medic, Engineer and Soldier.

Just because it was originally designed that way doesn't make it good. I think Chronos is a stupid hero, for example. He is laughably weak early on and gamebreaking later. He should be toned down. It's like the design decisions made in HD Remix. T.Hawk was considered to be the worst character in Super Turbo, but if he ever got in close (which was very hard), he basically won automatically. That's a stupid tactic, and not balanced. Dave Sirlin balanced this by taking away this auto-win loop but making him stronger overall, and the game is better for it. All I'm saying is that DotA was designed by a bunch of hobbyists and amateur game designers who admittedly did a great job overall, but who also should not be unquestioned. S2 has a full staff and the resources to fix any design decisions in the original DotA that were holding the game back (for example, I think the concept of last-hitting and denying is kind of stupid and counter-intuitive, adding a needless layer of execution.)

Just because it is doesn't mean it should be that way, you know It's basically exponential slippery slope. Dying is bad for you and good for the enemy in about a dozen different ways. IMO, any of the following should be done; less XP gained for hero kills, less gold gained for hero kills, less gold LOST for dying. Anyway, played Soul Reaper today... he's OK but I'm skeptical that he is A-tier. His execute seems somehow unreliable, and is quite mana-intensive. His nuke isn't bad but it doesn't even kill archers at level 4, thus you still have to do a lot of auto attacking. DEFINITELY not as good for farming as Nympho's pod, for example. Plus, the animation isn't instantaneous even after it's cast, which is a pain. Lastly, his attack animation seems sluggish and he's on the slow side. B, in my opinion.

Well, what else am I supposed to base them on except what I know? Like I said, this isn't me telling pros what they should be doing, but rather a community effort to understand what heroes we generally consider to be strong or not. When I looked up the community tier forums on the actual HoN forums ours are actually not that far off. The heroes we consider to be weaker (Accursed, Keeper, TDL, Chronos) match up with theirs, while our S/God ones (Tempest, Jeraziah, Succu, TB, etc.) match up with their top picks. I'm not saying the game is imbalanced at all - don't think I ever have - just that there are better picks than others. Yes, Keeper can be good. But if you need an initiator, would you rather have him or Behemoth? If you need a nuker, would you rather have Hag or Thunderbringer? If you need a disabler, would you rather have Puppet Master or Succubus? I agree. My main complaint about DotA/HoN is how even just a few kills or a slight advantage builds up exponentially.

QWER corresponds to your abilities - this is the same for every character. So, Q activates your first skill (first slot), W is the second (second slot), etc. Passive skills cannot be activated. Clicking on yourself then pressing control + (Number) on yourself will hotkey your hero. I recommend doing control+1. Then, if you press "1" twice in quick succession, the camera will center on your character. This is useful because often times you'll want to scroll around the map but then quickly jump back to your character. ALT+Q, ALT+W and ALT+E correspond to the top three slots in your inventory. So, if you have Enhanced Marchers in the top-left slot (slot 1), ALT+Q will activate them.

Soul Reaper's AOE is weaker than that of Nymphora or Jeraziah though, both of whom are better support to boot. I'd hardly call 275 magic damage "significant" when plenty of other heroes have AOEs at least that strong, if not stronger, and two others have combo AOE/heals that are stronger. And didn't you just say MQ's ult is useless because magic damage is too easy to mitigate? Can't you say that about Soul Reaper or any other magic-based character? MQ doesn't RELY on her magic damage unlike SR (or Pyro or TB or...) and scales better into late game. Same complaint about your view on Valk. MQ's magic is useless but Valk's AOE isn't? What? 300 AOE again is not that impressive. Heroes with as strong or stronger AOEs: Jeraziah, Nymphora, Pebbles, Pyromancer, Soulstealer, Wretched Hag, Defiler... yeah, Valk's long stun is nice but it's easy to dodge or mitigate, especially if you have a blink or movement boosting ability. An average AOE and unreliable stun doesn't seem to make up an A or S character to me, especially when her leap is not that great and her ult is both expensive, situational and easily countered (dust, bound eye.)

Hmm, Magebane and MQ as B? Why's that? MQ is a pretty devestating carry because of her ult and aura, but also a good farmer thanks to the AOE damage thing. Also, she's not mana reliant, unlike many other carries. MB also needs little mana and can escape/gank very easily with the practically 0-cooldown blink. Plus, the manaburn thing basically gives him +80 damage per attack against anyone, and I'd say that is quite significant. I don't understand why Soul Reaper is A/S. That seems far too high. His AOE damage/heal is certainly unimpressive. 1% max health drained per second, even to a 3k HP tank is only 30 HP which is still weaker than a mock of brilliance, and certainly not a significant threat. With only one active his mana regen thing hardly seems amazing which leaves his ult. OK, it's basically a 45% execute. Pretty cool, but it's an ult, so you can't use it that much, and both TB and Legionnaire have similar skills (but more overall utility.) Andromeda I'm on the fence about. Do you really think she's actually slightly worse than average? Her early game ganking capability is significant (long, high-damage stun plus swap) and later she's solid support with an AOE armor debuff, swap and damage aura (stronger than any other, I believe.) I know she's not S, but she seems at least average. Blood Hunter, I might agree with you on that. He doesn't have enough tricks. And HB could probably move up, you're right. Valk as A? Hmm.. not so sure. Her stun is unreliable in a teamfight and moves slow enough that it's dodgeable (plus having creeps around makes it easier to avoid.) Right now, she can also be hit mid-leap which makes it essentially like a weak blink. Her AOE is OK but nothing special, and her stat gain is mediocre for an AGI hero. What role does she play that makes her just as good as other A heroes? Lastly.. Puppet as A seems too high. Yes he's a good farmer, a surprisingly powerful INT carry (basically has 20% 2x AOE crit as a passive, and a self-only damage buff), and doesn't need mana. But against any smart opponent, Puppet is not too useful because all you have to do is move away quickly. His disables are, as the HoN forum guys pointed out, pseudo-disables only. If you had to pick a disabler, Pollywog is certainly better, and sheep/channel -> wards is more powerful and reliable than Puppet (plus you can push with them.) But still, maybe.

Agreed, that's why I put him in the lowest tier.

I don't think Swift is broken. His cyclone thing loses effectiveness later in the game, his counter is nothing too special, both Scout and Madman have similar crit skills, which just leaves his ult. 250x8 in physical damage and invulnerability during the attack is good, but it's easy to get enough armor to cut that damage in half (and you'll probably have it by the time its maxed.) I don't see how its stronger than other S-tier ults.

Tiers updated. Definitions: God Tier - Clearly overpowered, weaknesses are too few compared to strengths, overwhelming in more situations than not. S - Strengths outweigh weaknesses, numerous big advantages. You want these guys on your team. A - Very good hero all-around. Balanced strengths and weaknesses. B - Solid hero, but does not have a truly strong advantage. C - Can be powerful if used properly, but outshined by the upper tiers. Not enough useful skills, too situational. D - Underpowered for too much of the game, outshined by many characters, easily countered, but still potenteially usable. Garbage - No or very little reason to use this hero, needs buffs. Too weak in too many situations. God Tier - Magmus, Jeraziah, Tempest S - Legionnaire, Madman, Behemoth, Swiftblade, Defiler, Thunderbringer, Soulstealer, Demented Shaman, Arachna, Plague Rider, Succubus A - Pollywog Priest, Andromeda, Torturer, Electrician, Blood Hunter, Nymphora, Pyromancer, Kraken, Slither, Pharaoh, Scout, Moon Queen, Wildsoul, Magebane, Glacius, Predator B - Night Hound, Valkyrie, Hellbringer, Devourer, Puppet Master, Voodoo Jester, Hammerstorm, Zephyr, War Beast, Pestilence C - Armadon, Accursed, Wretched Hag, Blacksmith D - Chronos, Keeper of the Forest, The Dark Lady Not ranked: Soul Reaper, Malilken, Ophelia And some categories to help new players decide what kind of hero they want to play. Best Nukers: Pyromancer, Defiler, Thunderbringer Best Initiators: Tempest, Behemoth, Kraken, Legionnaire, Hellbringer Best Support: Jeraziah, Nymphora, Demented Shaman, Glacius Best Tanks: Jeraziah, Accursed, Armadon, Electrician Best Early Gankers: Slither, Arachna, Electrician Best All-Around Gankers: Arachna, Voodoo Jester, Pharaoh, Scout Best Disablers: Pollywog Priest, Succubus Best "Press R To Win" Heroes: Tempest, Moon Queen, Magmus, Plague Rider Best Carries: Soulstealer, Madman, Swiftblade, Chronos (lategame only, very hard to play) So if your team says "we need another tank", you want to play Jeraziah, Accursed, Armadon or Electrician. If they said we need a carry.. well, you get the picture. Tiers got a lot tighter after the last patch, which buffed Kraken, Scout and Magebane, formerly low-tier heroes. As always, post your thoughts. I'm not sure if all those A heroes are really A.

Wes v BardicKnowledge again, then

Meteo, it seems like you're only thinking from your perspective, NOT the perspective of the creators of the game, who obviously want high-quality music. The best music that we can put forward should get used; we shouldn't somehow handicap ourselves. Imagine if, for SF HD ReMix, we just let anyone submit their music with few guidelines. That would have resulted in a far worse final product. So people like me, tefnek and bLiNd enter the competition. So what? It just means the final music is going to be awesome. Also, your tone IS a little angsty considering in the Nokia competition, we had a newcomer place in the top 3.

arias, I think a competition is a good idea, but because you will need more than one or two songs, maybe have a competition for the main theme of the game, or something like that. For the rest of the music for the game, you could work something out with our site founder (forum name djpretzel) to see if we can do something officially for you guys.