zircon   Members

Great stuff. Deep 6!

Everyone seems to think TDL is crappy. I think it's because she relies on all active skills, her ult isn't that great, and she needs a lot of levelling/farming to get good. But the fact that she effectively can turn her normal attack into a big AOE is crazy, especially if you have proc/silence effects. It probably helped that we had Glacius too to help with your mana. BTW, I take back what I said about Pharaoh. Just played a *balanced* 3v3 game and dominated with him. His abilities are far better than I thought.

I just played a match with Puppet Master where I dominated hard. However, it didn't really seem to be due to any of his abilities, though once his damage ramps up, his splash becomes insane (I could literally kill an entire creep wave endgame with ONE attack.) His "disables" are OK, and while the puppet is useful earlier, I just didn't seem to use it much later, as people could escape it quite easily. Early on though the abilities seem to be useful, for example hold -> puppet, or getting in some harass shots after using the dance skill. His best trait, I suppose, is that he pretty much NEVER needs mana allowing him to focus entirely on damage (his splash passive also improves base damage in and of itself.) So, maybe not garbage.. C, B at best. You can do lots of damage with him, but Jeraziah can do periodic splash damage too. And Legionnaire. And Moon Queen.

You can actually check out some of Jill's music on OurStage: http://www.ourstage.com/fanclub/jillianaversa and her MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/jilliansong

Yep, that's the new intro theme, created by yours truly of course Shownotes coming soon. We were just tired last night (Jill is under the weather, too.)

The show is coming out tonight, guys! Don't know exactly when.. but hopefully before midnight

Yes but Scout or Keeper can illuminate an area too. Pharaoh has to use his ulti to get in, so he's not even good at blocking and trapping. Why not Behemoth with Port Key? Fissure will stun at range. Magmus can run up and stun, and people will want to run from him very badly. There are many other heroes with similar abilities, but are better overall. Pharaoh's mummies can be killed even if you don't walk through them, and his damage/stun from hellfire is pretty weak all things considered.

Really? I don't see that in the patch notes anywhere. Even if that is the case, they have like 80 hp anyway.

I don't understand why Pharaoh is good. Why is he an anti-initiator? The zombies? The zombies can be countered with Enhanced Marchers, a cheap item. His nuke is weak overall. His AOE stun thing has a very small range. ALL of his abilities are actives meaning he is mana-intensive. He can trap people, but then what is he gonna do? Other characters can stun/trap and do more damage (ie. Devourer.) Furthermore his Ulti is like a regular ability for Magmus or even Kraken. I dunno. He just seems.. not very useful since you wouldn't have the mana to use all his stuff constantly early on, yet when you do get the mana later, since he has no armor or damage buffs, dispels, heals or other support abilities, he's left with little offense or tanking. So if you have two STR heroes on your team, why pick Pharaoh when you could have.. * Magmus (better stuns, more damage) * Behemoth (way better stuns, traps) * Jereziah (better support) * Accursed (better tank) * Pebbles (better tank, better aoe stun) etc?

Updated Tiers (again, all this is just in my personal opinion, but it would be fun to maintain this as a group) Definitions: God Tier - Clearly overpowered, weaknesses are too few compared to strengths, overwhelming in more situations than not. S - Strengths outweigh weaknesses, numerous big advantages. You want these guys on your team. A - Very good hero all-around. Balanced strengths and weaknesses. B - Solid hero, but does not have a truly strong advantage. C - Can be powerful if used properly, but outshined by the upper tiers. Not enough useful skills, too situational. Garbage - No or very little reason to use this hero, needs buffs. Too weak in too many situations. God Tier - Magmus, Jereziah, Tempest S - Legionnaire, Madman, Behemoth, Swiftblade, Moon Queen, Defiler, Thunderbringer, Soulstealer, Demented Shaman, Arachna A - Pollywog Priest, Andromeda, Succubus, Devourer, Torturer, Electrician, Blood Hunter, Nymphora, Pyromancer B - Glacius, Blacksmith, Slither, Night Hound, Predator, Valkyrie, Hellbringer C - Armadon, Accursed, The Dark Lady, Kraken, Keeper of the Forest, Scout Garbage - Chronos, Voodoo Jester, Pharaoh, Puppet Master Not placed yet: Pestilence, War Beast, Wildsoul, Ophelia, Zephyr, Maliken, Wretched Hag, Hammerstorm

People have to play their matches and tell me the results! Current ones are; Dusk v Arek Bardic v Bahamut Shael v Dyne Flare v zircon Dusk seems to not be around though, so unless I hear from him by tonight I'm just gonna eliminate him and move Arek on.

I have Komplete 4, so I'll update. Before that, I had K2. Doing every other version is generally a good idea

Wow, I friggin love Soulstealer. I was in a pub where my team was sorely behind (levels 6-8 while the enemy team was 10-12), but I was higher level than anyone, including the enemy team. Before long I turned the game around and maxed out on levels before some people on my team were even 20. SS's ulti is just domination, and with Jereziah on the team as support, he's pretty much GG. Also helped that I had Steamboots and Behemoth's Heart, bringing me to a healthy 3000 HP

W is for Wario Land.

L is for Lufia

Clef, maybe you just naturally don't have much experience with this style. I've been playing about as long as you, maybe a few days longer, but I seem to be doing well. IMO, the game is *quite* noob-friendly compared to virtually any other competitive game I've tried: Street Fighter HDR or IV, TF2, Blazblue, StarCraft, etc...

Haha, I get them *because* we're rolling, usually

Well... I haven't played with you as much, whereas the five of us play multiple times a day with each other. That's why you didn't immediately come to mind.

In theory, that throw could also work for Behemoth, Soulstealer, Magmus or any other character with a devestating radial AOE.

Haha - actually that was a 4v4, the 4v3 was when you rolled us as Andromeda But yeah, one of the best OCR games yet. After some additional play... * Soulstealer has gotta be S-tier, at least A. His damage takes a bit to ramp up, he's fragile, and his demon hands can be tricky to use. But once you learn how to actually play him, he's really not that item dependent, and his nuke is both highly damaging, spammable and HIGHLY mana efficient. He can devestate creep waves in 2-3 shots allowing him to get massive gold, while his soul stealing ability allows him to build up overwhelming damage. * Demented Shaman is probably S as well. One of the best support heroes; every ability is quite useful, and his stats are awesome as well. He can protect you from damage, heal (while damaging, a la Jereziah), root/stun/DOT (all in one!) and massively buff armor in an AOE while debuffing enemies. Pretty cool.

Apparently you did just join to troll this guy considering your only three posts have been in this thread... anyway, I get what you're saying, but again, he's not posting to brag about how good his team is. He's offering to help us - most of whom are NEW to DotA/HoN, having played the game <1 week, by doing some friendly games. I just don't see what's wrong with that. But hey, if you're in a clan also and you want to play against us, that would be cool too. Join us on irc.enterthegame.com #ocrhon.

Wow, did you join these forums just to talk smack or something? The point eZ was making was that his clan is good, probably far better than any of us on OCR, so give it a rest. His offer is much appreciated. I'd love to set up a friendly 5v5. Maybe Donut, Wes (Bahamut), Bardic, Tensei and myself.

Agreed on Devourer. I've played him several times. I put him as a solid A as well. The reason I didn't put him higher is because he is pretty fragile at lower levels, with low mana and no passives to help him kill much faster, and he pretty much needs great health regen and/or Headdress to withstand his own Decay. But you're right, his solo ganking ability is almost unmatched. Decay, Hook and then Ultimate will do massive burst damage that is literally inescapable.

More thoughts: Tempest -> S tier, maybe even God tier. His elementals make him a ridiculous pusher. In an earlier game, Wes (as Tempest) pushed two mid towers by himself, before level 10, and without being fed at all. His other abilities are amazing as well, including his ultimate. Valkyrie -> B. A good all around character, but her stats are confusing. All of her abilities are active, requiring mana, yet she is an AGI hero. However, her INT gains are pretty bad and her AGI gains are nothing to write home about. She doesn't scale too well later in the game either, plus her mana-efficient long-range stun/damage dealing ability requires complete LoS... a rarity in this game (ie. if even a single creep is in the path, it won't hit the target.) Puppet Master -> C or garbage. This guy sucks. There are many choices for better disablers, and while his ultimate is a neat concept, it's stupid in practice and other heroes have more damaging/helpful ultimates. Pebbles -> A. While some other STR heroes outshine him, this guy can be surprisingly powerful. Targetable, damaging AOE stun plus natural tanking makes him a force to be reckoned with. Arachna and Blood Hunter -> Switched. So, BH is A and Arachna is back to S. Keeper of the Forest -> C. Even for a STR hero, this guy's abilities are generally not very good. His invisibility and 'ward' abilities aren't bad, but can be countered without too much trouble, and take space away from possibly better abilities. His other active is also misplaced on a character with no other damage enhancements and weak AGI gain. His saving graces are his ridiculous STR gain (3.6 - highest in the game?) and his ultimate that is one of the best disables in the game. 5-second AOE root that interrupts channeling and does 425 damage? Uhh, yes please.

Depends on the character and how much gold you start with. The only thing you NEED for ANY character is some kind of healing item. If your HP drops too low, you are in danger of a gank (even at level 1), and thus you are useless. So, you need healing items to survive. Even the simple Runes of Blight (90 gold) are sufficient, as they will restore about 333 hp total - a good rate of return. A health potion is 100 gold, healing 400 hp, but it will go away if you get hit. I prefer the Runes. If your character is in for some hardcore laning - ie. Pollywog Priest, Thunderbringer, Arachna or some other good solo character - then you will want *extra* healing items, possibly mana too. If you get enough consumables you may be able to lane until level 6 or 7 without returning to town, giving you a dominant gold and XP advantage. If you're any other character, usually getting stat items is good, as has been mentioned. If you started with ~1k gold you might want to get the +15% attack speed gloves, as it will help you last hit better with *any* character and put you closer to steamboots too. Remember that at the outset it's not necessary to complete the recipe for your +6/+3/+3 item.. you can get the +2/+2/+2 item (2x) and a +3 item, and then complete the recipe on your next trip. The very first thing on your list when you return to town for the first time should be Marchers, almost without question. Not long after that, you want a Homecoming Stone, as well as a replenished stock of consumables if you're still going to be laning for a bit. After that, you have much more flexibility. Some general tips, based on my experience... * If your team has the advantage, use this opportunity to save up for awesome, expensive items. * If you're dying a lot, or your team is losing, you are probably gaining less gold and are at constant risk of losing what you do have. Buy smaller items that will be beneficial immediately. Getting a Wingbow right as your team loses is not helpful. * Basically any character can benefit from the Boots recipes. Which you get is up to you, though Post Haste is a bit of a luxury. Enhanced Marchers should be for slower characters and those with little stun/slow capabilities, while Steamboots are better if you can already chase or escape without a problem (ie. you have a teleport, self-dispel, etc.) * Slash is a great, cost-effective offense item. Worth getting even earlier on as it can be combined with Hack to get Hack & Slash, a great damage-dealer item. * Helm of the Black Legion is good, but you may be better off saving for Behemoth's Heart, which is considerably better (scales better, too.) Behemoth's is basically the best defensive item in the game because it adds such massive HP and regeneration. * Know your character role when choosing items. Are you Legionnaire? Behemoth? Almost any other STR char? Please stop buying damage items. You are naturally suited to tank, so let the AGI chars on your team focus on damage. Are you support? Get defensive items, disables and mana regeneration. Don't get damage items. * Some classes are less item-dependent than others. Know your abilities. If your skills are all based on set damage, then focus on defensive items or mana augmentation. This would include characters like Pyromancer, Thunderbringer, Pollywog Priest, Valkyrie, etc. Conversely, characters like Arachna, Chronos and Predator need to enhance their damage through items to be effective. In some ways this means that playing INT characters is often easier than playing non-INT characters, since a good Defiler with no items can still do exactly as much damage as a good Defiler with tons of items, and a lot more damage than a Moon Queen with no items.