orlouge82
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Posts posted by orlouge82
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You may be misinterpreting me. What I mean is that I don't believe ALL OC ReMixes would qualify as derivative works. As you mentioned later in your post, a compulsory license is contingent on the licensee creating a version of a song that doesn't change the basic melody or character of the work. I would say that many ReMixes do not, in fact, change the basic melody or character of the work. Some are more on the conservative side and could be considered adaptations of this kind as opposed to derivative works. If you think about all the great cover songs you know, how many of them stick 100% to the original and how many actually deviate a bit with some new flourishes, rhythm, harmony, instrumentation, etc.?
Gotcha. I was operating under the assumption that straight up covers were generally frowned upon here, but now that you mention it, there are some very conservative mixes that would probably not qualify as derivatives.
Well, fair use is always on a case-by-case basis and very subjective... while we strongly believe that what we do falls within those protections, it is impossible to say with legal certainty due to the lack of a bright-line rule.
True enough, especially with how unpredictable judges are. However, the non-profit aspect of the website should all but convince 99% of judges that this is fair use. That last factor is typically considered the strongest in determining whether something is fair use (although the other three are certainly necessary). Considering that OCR is a non-profit organization that seeks to transform and expand upon copyrighted material, not compete with it, I would say that it embodies the spirit of what fair use was designed to protect and encourage.
EDIT:
olrouge82: Let me just say I'm really enjoying this conversation. I went to school for music business and I like honing my knowledge with this kind of academic discussion, especially when the result of the exchange can potentially help someone!Ditto. I don't have an undergraduate degree in a hard science (engineering, chemistry, etc), so I can't get admitted to the patent bar, but I've taken several courses in IP law, and I find it very interesting. I don't practice in it (I'd apparently rather deal in the most toxic and soul-crushing of all areas of law -- family law), but I do enjoy academic discussions and studies of it.
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My experience with big companies are they're impossible to get a hold of, and even if you do, business these days will copyright the vagrant dog shit on the lawn of their accounting office if they think it protects their brand, so even if it's perfectly legal, I will get a resounding NO and they will know to look for me to do it anyway.
True story.
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And why exactly?
He's jealous of America's "fair use" when he's stuck with Canada's "fair dealing" laws
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Another minor point of clarification but there is also a distinction between arrangements/covers and derivative works. If one takes an existing piece and does not substantially change the character, but rather adapts it for a new set of instruments, this is typically not considered a derivative work and subject to the compulsory mechanical licensing statute. This is how some VGM arrangers are able to sell their work without asking for permission. However, if the original work is drastically transformed, or if at any point you are SAMPLING the original sound recording then you've crossed over into derivative work territory, for which there is no compulsory licensing statute.
Of course, even if a given OC ReMix would be considered a cover/arrangement as opposed to a derivative work, that doesn't really protect us any more since we haven't gone through the compulsory mechanical licensing process. As you (rightly) pointed out we believe what we do falls under fair use.
Anyway, this situation with chiptune SFX is interesting because we're NOT talking about sound recordings. An analogy would be if I smacked my hand against my guitar as a sound effect in a film score, then you heard that and smacked YOUR hand against YOUR guitar to create a very similar effect. You didn't sample my sound recording (and chiptunes aren't sound recordings anyway AFAIK, they're musical pieces with an associated playback system) and thus there's no legal problem. But it's an interesting situation because some SFX could maybe be construed as short musical pieces or jingles, however unlikely that may be.
A classic example in the world of synthesizers is the distinction between selling recordings of sample-based hardware vs. analog/digital synthesizers. You cannot copyright the output of an oscillator. You can patent the design of the oscillator (maybe), but not what comes out of it. Likewise, there is really no way to copyright a particular group of knob and switch settings. So, there is no legal problem with me taking a true synthesizer and recording sounds from it, even if I didn't create the exact settings for those sounds. I could even sell the sounds later. On the other hand, some synthesizers utilize sound recordings, or a mix of recordings and true synthesized sounds. In this case, it would be illegal for me to record and sell the sounds.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but I don't really understand your opposition to remixes on OCR being labelled as "derivative works," since that actually affords them copyright protection.
Here's the definition of "derivative work" in U.S. Copyright Act (17 U.S.C. § 101 if you're curious):
A "derivative work" is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation,musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a "derivative work."[Emphasis added]
I wasn't saying that OCR remixes are derivative works because they use samples from games or anything like that (although that is true for some of them). I was saying that they are derivative works because they are not 100% original creations. They use musical arrangements from copyrighted video games.
And OCR/remixers don't have to go through the compulsory license process because compulsory licenses forbid remixing of musical arrangements. Here's the Copyright Act section on it (17 U.S.C. §115(a)(2)):
A compulsory license includes the privilege of making a musical arrangement of the work to the extent necessary to conform it to the style or manner of interpretation of the performance involved, butthe arrangement shall not change the basic melody or fundamental character of the work, and shall not be subject to protection as a derivative work under this title, except with the express consent of the copyright owner.[Emphasis added]
The reason for this is because derivative works are independently copyrightable, and that would create some major complications in compulsory license law.
In any case, OCR remixes are indeed derivative works, meaning that the original aspects of their arrangements are copyrightable, but they are non-infringing because (as mentioned earlier), they fall well within fair use protections.
EDIT: As far as the sound effects go, I have to re-check some of these older cases I've read, but I'm pretty sure that jingles such as the Mario 1up sound are only copyrightable insofar as they are "musical arrangements", not the sound effects themselves. The cases I've read were more related to commercials/marketing, so I don't know how they'd apply to video games necessarily.
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Having been listening to this album for the last several months, I can assure you all...it's gonna be one of the best to ever hit OCR.
It's not really fair to brag about how great the album is when most of us can't get it for a few more months
I'll just have to bide my time with the Wily Remix Gauntlet and Mavericks Rising (assuming it's released before this one).
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Not to be hypercorrective, but:
This is definitely inaccurate. The right to create derivative works belongs to the creator, and by default, creating a derivative work is infringing. You can argue fair use etc. but again by default derivative works are NOT ok. The real question is whether a sound effect that itself is not even a recording but just a series of notes would be considered copyrightable to begin with.
More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work
Sorry, I oversimplified in my original post. The thing with derivative works is that it is a very broad term that applies to both what you describe and works that are primarily original but incorporate some previously copyrighted work.
Derivative use CAN mean "not okay" as in "not independent enough from the original work to be copyrightable," but it can also mean a work that utilizes older work that is already copyrighted, but builds upon it significantly so that the new work is copyrightable (obviously, the older work that is being built upon can't be copyrighted since it wasn't created by the derivative work author).
While what you are doing would probably be derivative use, I was mistaken in attributing any kind of defense against an infringement suit to that principal (again, I was writing that first post quickly without having done any research).
As far as fair use goes, that will protect you if you follow these guidelines (the four "fair use" factors under 17 USC § 107):
1. Purpose and character of use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes: Make your works as "transformative" as possible. Meaning, even though you are using chiptunes/SFX from copyrighted sources, you should arrange them in a unique fashion - something very original. If your work is transformative enough, it shouldn't matter whether it is commercial (I know yours technically isn't but it is somewhere between that and private/noncommercial).
2. Nature of copyrighted work: not going to help much here, this factor will generally weigh in favor of fair use if the work to be used is factual in nature (scholarly works), as opposed to works involving more creative expression (songs, SFX, etc). Still, not satisfying one of the factors isn't fatal to whether a work is considered fair use.
3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole: If you are only using the sound effects from a game (and I am assuming that all individual sound effects are not independently copyrighted, which is a logical assumption), then this one should weigh heavily in favor of you. Even if you arrange a new, unique song using only sound effects from copyrighted games do to it, since the game itself which the sound effects appear is the copyrighted material, not the individual sound effects themselves, you are only using a very small portion of the copyrighted work in your derivative work, and this factor should weigh in your favor.
4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work: This is really the determining factor. Basically, this factor will weigh in your favor (and that of fair use) if your work has little or no impact on the market value of the copyrighted work. Seeing as using sound effects from a video game to create a new song should only increase awareness of the original video game, and thus provide a net market benefit for the original work, your work actually benefits the original work under the law.
Follow the guidelines above, and you should be good to go.
Also, every single remix on OCR is a derivative work because they all utilize previously copyrighted musical arrangements from video games. Why they can invoke fair use as a defense is because of the application of those four factors above.
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n00b question...How many points does a first, second and third place vote get you? Just curious.
If this was discussed already I apologize
It's done the same way as the PRC
1st place = 3
2nd place = 2
3rd place = 1
Teams get 3 points automatically whenever a team member votes
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'member when we was all talkin' 'n stuff 'bout how we could still crack the top 3???? THE IRONY
It's ok. I don't think TGH's score for the week could have handled any more points anyway.
Actually, by my tally, it wouldn't have made a difference.
Gentlemaster's Club had 67 points
The Hard Men had 60 points
The Bad Guy Robots had 57 points
Granted, I haven't tallied again after DarkeSword voted, so I don't know if anyone changed their vote after voting was closed, but anyhow, the point is that it didn't make a difference this round.
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Red Chamomile - Nice rock arrangement, and one of the only ones this round. Really can't complain about it, and definitely one of the better mixes this round. It could have easily broken into the top three if the mood had struck at the time I listened to it (and it still yet may)
Air-Cossacks! - Definitely doesn't have the usual polish that I'm used to from WillRock, but the arrangement is actually one of his better ones. The production, while not up to his usual standards, wasn't so bad that I couldn't enjoy it. Loved the solo at 2:02. This one just barely beat out a couple of others for the number 3 spot.
twenty-six alpha - Ah, the return of jazzy/mellow pieces from prophetik. Awesome. As soon as I was 35 seconds into this one, I knew it was going to be in my top 3. It sounds like you used some of the jungle-y samples from your final GRMRB 2011 mix, but they are deployed much more effectively in this mix, IMO. Really love it. My #1.
Standing On Top - You said that you weren't too happy with the way the mix turned out, but it really isn't that bad (or maybe you didn't want to feel left out from all of the other mixers who were complaining about how their mixes turned out this round, I don't know). Anyhow, I didn't mind the the vocals that much in this mix, but something about it just didn't click with me. The way you and your team's mixes have been going so far in this compo, though, I wouldn't be surprised if this one won this round, too.
Northern Lights - This song and Zerothemaster's are a great example of one of the reason's I love these compos: watching people improve. This one could have easily been my #4. Just a huge improvement over your last one (and your last one wasn't really bad). My only complaint would be that it seemed to get a little stale by the end, but it was still a catchy arrangement and very well executed. Nicely done!
License to Chill - Like I've said before, I'm not a huge fan of orchestrations. I do love the James Bond inspiration, though. I could definitely see it in a Bond movie, and you definitely get points for creativity. Nice work!
Eye Of The Storm - Ah, more trancey goodness from Jewbei. Much better combination of the two themes this time, around, too. Yet another contender for my #3 spot, and if the mood strikes, I may find myself changing it.
Groove, Swing, March - I really liked the little chip-tune interlude in the middle. I actually really liked the whole thing...sigh, yet another contender for #3...
No Time for Doctors - No time, indeed! This mix sure is in a hurry! Unfortunately, it is a bit short (in a round where most mixes are shorter than usual). Still a good arrangement and nice production, I just wish it was longer.
Villainous Revelry - Another great piece from Jakesnke17, and, unless we hear from him in the infamous Round 10, perhaps his last mix of the compo? Anyway, I don't really know why I liked this one so much, but I did. I think Jakesnke's mixes have great way of delivering something without beating you over the head with it. There's a lot going on with it being overwhelming, and I can chill out while listening to it, but it isn't really that slow-paced and it certainly isn't boring. Like I said last week, it's great to have you back!
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The Internet is a poor substitute for legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your area if you expect to be doing anything that could get you sued. (Sorry if this sounds rude.)
I actually am a licensed attorney, but I'm not sure if I'm licensed in his area or not, which is why my earlier post should in no way be construed as legal advice. This is an informal discussion on the subject, nothing more.
Anyhow, I can research into it some more later today after some other things clear up and let you know. Again, not legal advice.
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This is shaping up to be the most rushed and most shit track i've ever done
I'm contemplating subbing this tbh, I've got alot of work to do in about an hour and a half and atm it doesn't look like its worth the trouble judging how its turning out hahaha.
I SHALL DO IT FOR THE GOOD OF MY TEAMMATES HOWEVER, ANY VOTE IS WORTH IT.
You know what you should also do is vote. Along with...
halc
Benjamin Briggs
C7
Xarnax42
zach72
EVERYONE FROM THE BEAT BUSTERS
LuketheXjesse
Jakesnke17
EDIT: Halc just voted
EDIT 2: Silly me, I forgot the entire Dr. Light's Luminosity Legion except Lidawg who just voted.
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Here's a rather interesting question I've yet to see on the subject of music copyright in our corners and circles and I thought it might be of interest to the community.
A couple months ago I had this idea for an album I wanted to do down the road - I am interested to do a chiptune prog-rock style arrange album of old church hymns and donate it as a product commodity to my church as something that can generate revenue directly to their donation/offering books. In other words - make up a church bandcamp page, print some out for sale at $5.99 each to be next to the bulletins - each $5.99 purchase is 100% donation to the church.
The problem I run into then is that I don't do 8-bit SFX engineering and I like to supplement my 8bit tracks with famous chiptune SFX (Mega Man, Zelda, etc.) and then question comes to mind:
Is it copyright infringement to use chiptune SFX on an album designed to generate revenue as a donation to a religious entity?
I guess the main reason I ask is because I'm curious on how copyright stuff like that works in the context of donation and thought the community might like to know as well. I can always go without using SFX, but I'd like to know all the same.
Thank you!
Offhand, I would think that it probably qualifies as a derivative work and there shouldn't be any infringement issues. My gut tells me that there isn't much, if any, difference between for profit derivative works and "revenue for charity" derivative works, but I'd have to research a bit to get a definitive answer.
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No, you see Ben had just agreed to give us all of his points to help us out
Normally, we'd all find that funny. But the way things have gone in this thread, that comment is likely to start a three page long debate on the rules.
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Scores and tallies are updated.
I noticed one small error:
You attributed Ben Brigg's team as "The Mega Ballers" when he is actually part of The Hard Men.
That doesn't affect The Mega Baller's ranking this round, but it does affect both The Hard Men's ranking, and the Bad Guy Robots from Mega Man's ranking.
I.e., The Hard Men should have 53 points instead of 50, and therefore are placed ahead of the Bad Guy Robots from Mega Man, instead of being tied with them.
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Cheers for the feedback bud, always appreciated I've done a quick update as I think what is throwing the timing a bit is the Hi-hats. I've altered the rhythm at the start. It eases you in better I think before it starts goin' wild. I've increased the reverb on the lead guitar and reduced some of the reverb on other parts though there is soo little used in this track. Any way, hopefully this sounds a little better. Also, let me know if you think the arrangement is substantial for a submission. If it is I may tweak the production and such further but if not I think I'll leave it as it is as I'm pretty happy with it
Remix: http://db.tt/mS7UW0IO
Wow, this is great! It sounds much cleaner than what you submitted for the compo! Great work!
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Hornet of Legend - Hylian Lemon never fails to impress with his ability to make a remix that sounds like it could be straight out off of a Legend of Zelda game's soundtrack, even though the source tunes are nothing like a Zelda song (see round 2 of GRMRB 2011/song title: "Save a Horse (Ride a Transformer)"). Anyhow, this is a fantastically executed song, and I have no technical complaints about it. It didn't make my top three purely because there were other songs that I preferred the styles of more, but if recent voting trends are any indication, this song will do very well this round.
Blast Counter - As someone else has already mentioned, the soundscape at the beginning is well-executed and fits the intro. Again, overall, I have no complaints about the song, but it didn't stand out to me as much as other songs this round did. Also, my perceptions of Napalm Man remixes may be a little biased since the zenith of all Napalm Man remixes for me is WillRock's Walking Weapons Unit from GRMRB 2011 (which also is probably my favorite WillRock song altogether). In any event, no complaints, like most of the rest of the songs this round.
Dr. Wiwwy, Polarized - Loved the sound of Magnet Man's theme all skewed - like it was run through a magnet. Yet another song of this round that I don't have any complaints about. This one could have easily made my top 3, and it's one of the songs that made me wish - for the first time in this compo - that I could do a top 5 or 6. Great work.
Proud Warrior of a Forgotten Kingdom - Great stuff here. Two things. First, it feels a little skinny, which could be remedied by running through the WIP forums. Second, it's too short, but that's simple enough to fix with more time to draw out the arrangement. The great ideas are there, you just need to develop them more. Nice job.
Bring the Heat - I think I remember you saying that this song is incomplete, which is too bad because I really liked where it was going. Same suggestions as above though: make it a bit longer, and fatten it up a bit, and you'll have yourself a great finished product. If you choose to finish this song, I would definitely look forward to the end result.
Tower Power Boogie - I know you were busy this week, and it's too bad that you couldn't spend more time on this mix, because it has a really unique style that I would have been very interested to hear as a finish product. Maybe you can finish it up when you get some time later one? Very creative approach here.
Shining Groove - Great soundscape. I actually felt like the song was "shining" when I was listening to it. Like Gario's, this one could have easily made my top 3, and it's one of the songs that made me want to put a top 5 or 6 instead of a top 3. Just great work. Loved the solo from 1:17-2:08 (AMT, I presume?). Definitely one of your better works to date, Neblix. Very nice job.
The Fall - Standard disclaimer: I don't really like VG remixes with lyrics, as I've said repeatedly in the past. That said, the song was well executed and arranged, and the only complaint that I have would be echoing what Ecto said earlier about it sounding "like 'Title of Your First Remix' 2.0." Still, no one can complain about how well done the song is.
Robot Lounge - Hot damn, this is great. This manages to be relaxing and chill while still maintaining my attention. Great treatment of Shadow Man's theme, which I typically find to be somewhat one dimensional. Awesome trumpet solo, C7. Anything more I say about this song would just be more heaps of praise, so I'll just sum up by saying excellent work, this gets my #2 spot.
Wily's Bubble Bath - TGH returns and steals the #1 spot. I listened to all of these remixes for hours yesterday without paying attention to the artist, and the first few times this one came on, I had to check the song title and artist because it was so good that I wanted to make a note of it. Love this song, and I'm impressed that you were still able to find a unique way to treat Bubble Man's theme after doing four remixes of it for GRMRB 2011. Nice soloing, too. Excellent work!
Planes, Trains, and Auto 'n' Beat - It's funny, when I was listening to the songs yesterday without listening to the artists, as mentioned above, I thought this was Neblix's entry the first couple of plays because it resembles his style quite a bit (and that's not a bad thing). This is one of the many other songs this round that I don't have any complaints about but didn't make my my top 3 because it didn't stand out as much as some of the others to me. But it would have made a top 5 or 6 list. Great work!
Combustive Implosion - I swear one of the things that made this round so hard to vote on was the return of Jakesnke17 and TGH. This song beat out several other excellent mixes to snag the #3 spot, and even though electronic genres seem to be well-enough represented in this competition, this song still strikes me as unique and dissimilar from other electronic ones I've heard so far in the compo. Also, congrats on actually producing something meaningful from Grenade Man's theme. Great to see you back!
Well, that's all of them. A phenomenal crop this week.
Good luck to the mixers of next week trying to top them.
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I agree. Definitely a strong round. Nice work guys.
Geez, you assholes must have all decided to make this round of voting as hard as possible. Seriously, the mixes get better every round.
Also, nice to see the return of TheGuitahHeroe and Jakesnke17!
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I'll be bringing the insanity for the Concrete Men this week. Hit us with your best shot (and then wring your fists in pain as your flesh collides with one metric ton of solid cement)!
Aren't the mixers the last remaining ones that didn't mix the last two weeks?
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Because it's fun =)
True story (course, I just get to listen, but that's a lot of fun for me)
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This week's Wily Castle theme is Mega Man 4 - Dr. Cossack's Fortress 2.
Stamp out the Red Menace!
Hooray! Fan requests work!
Although I am waiting for this song to be up...
I'm hoping that reverse psychology works on DarkeSword, so I'm going to ask that he PLEASE not pick Mega Man 4 Wily Stage 2.That makes three of us.EDIT: Whoops, I guess that's Cossack, not Wily. Still an AWESOME theme (Cossack 2, I mean)
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In this case sleep is for the disease filled and work exausted. At least I'll still be able to finish my track.
And yes, it has a few chiptunes in it. 'Cause that's what I do.
See if you can get prophetik to finally vote in one of these rounds. I know he doesn't like to vote, but it's hurting your team every round.
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Cold Dreams: Cool soundscape here. I think this is the first non-80s mix I've ever heard from SirNuts! I really like the instrumention throughout, and the "windy" sound effects were used well throughout.
Thanks for the comments. You should listen to some of my old posted mixes at ocr, those were what some people would call my "style". I love going all retro on my mega man mixes but it's not something I do very often. I do have a lot of fun doing that tho!SuperiorX: if you can track them down, you should check out Sir_NutS's stuff from the IMC (IronMix Challenge). Different style, and his current stuff is way more polished, but I guess that happens when you have 8 years to work on it.
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why not change the setting? why does it have to be generic fantasy settings with elves every time? time must progress in the zelda-verse. tell a story from a different time period, a different character's perspective, or i don't know, just fucking make something new
Did I stumble into an alternate universe wherein Wind Waker was never created? Also, it's sequels Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks? Or were you thinking something more along the lines of a futuristic Final Fantasy VIII or XIII setting, because I think those two games got just a ton of praise from fans and no criticisms whatsoever.
EDIT: Oh, also, Mario Kart 64 was the pinnacle of the Mario Kart series
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Speaking of elevator music....my mix WILL have vibraphones.
Welcome back, by the way. Congrats on getting another mix posted!
Chiptune Copyright Question
in General Discussion
Posted
Seriously, are you just trying to be an ass?
Nintendo's going to respond the way any content owner would - MINE MINE MINE!!
You can't get a factual or fair answer on the issue from them or any other major content owner.