big giant circles

Aight, see stuff like this I don't mind one bit, and I can even understand and relate to where you're coming from. It's not making outrageous claims saying stuff like "Oh, this and this are essentially the same" like comparing a watermelon to an apple because they're both fruit. I can totally dig on that. My personal response has already pretty much been given with: Yep. The very first time I played L4D, man I got the chills/shakes/whatever you wanna call 'em. It was INTENSE. I mean, I was totally submerged in the game's vibe and experience. When I started hearing the witch music, I'd often just freeze thinking she was like right around the corner and going to do horrible horrible things to me if I accidentally disturbed her. A month later: I'd learned it wasn't so bad, even if she did jump on me, my teammates would likely kill her and pick me back up. And if I died, eh, I'd be in a closet somewhere in a couple minutes. A month later I'd learned how to crown the witch by now, so the music didn't even phase me. I'd stopped being scared/shaken up by the sound or sight of her and it was more a race to run and show my noob teammates that BGC was a witch assassin. Same thing goes for all the infected really, I learned how to clean kill boomers and dead-stop hunters and break the tongue of smokers, and at that point, versus mode became the lasting game for me because it was harder to compete against infected who were actively working together to stop you from reaching a goal. I wasn't really playing it for the scare value anymore. Anyway, that doesn't render your disappointment null or anything, I think that's probably just the psychology behind our feelings. And I think the guys at Valve probably figured that the multi-player is what's ultimately going to keep this game in the popular loop, so they made it more about the challenge of chopping, hacking, punching and shooting your way through an army of zombies to reach your goal than about being scared out of your wits like a traditional survival/horror game (R.E., Silent Hill, FEAR, etc). So pretty much And I guess that's why I actually found myself enjoying the daytime level, it's a nice change up. I'm sure looking forward to the darker levels though, absolutely. And I still do miss the old music, and absolutely the old characters. I don't think anyone who ever played L4D can deny that they were instantly lovable and endearing from literally the first video we saw them in. (And if you do, then you're a hopeless douche and will probably die alone and unloved ) So um, yeah. Finally, some good discussion!

If you're looking for orchestral with a $500 max budget, then you should definitely go the softsynth route as there's really not any hardware I can think of in this range that has good synth OR sampled sounds. You'd be better off saving your money until you can splurge a little more on something nicer. Otherwise, what'll happen is you'll realize how limited your sound-quality and options are and then probably end up either trying to sell what you bought (for a substantial loss) or just flat out starting over. Then you're just set back $500. I think what you should do is buy Native Instruments Komplete 6 (remember to use that link when you do) because it's on sale for a mere $500 right now which would give you Kontakt which will have a very nice variety of orchestral and world sounds, and plenty of electronic sounds and pads as well, and a Guitar Rig, which is not only good for guitar but pretty much anything. If you're worried your computer can't handle it, most of those things are not all that CPU intensive, and if it's a storage issue, then just snag an ext USB harddrive or something--they're dirt cheap lately. Then just snag a MIDI controller and you're in business. You certainly won't find any hardware that comes close to the quality and sheer quantity of sounds as Komplete until you get closer to the $2000-3000 range.

Stability mostly.

In Win 7 64 it can break 2, I did it just the other day. I'm not sure about Win XP 64, isn't that what you're running?

Of course back then, music couldn't really be plagiarized in the same way AT ALL. Since no recordings existed, most everything was passed on by either writing or by mouth to ear. As far as music went, there wasn't any such thing as a "production" (as in music that had been recorded, sequenced, mixed, mastered, PRODUCED in a certain way.) So I'm not really sure how that ties into people being pissed that someone would steal their work and try to say "Yeah, listen to this cool track I did." Regardless of whether or not the music was free, it's still theft. True, in most cases on here, it's just small potatoes of kids who want the attention of people thinking they did something awesome that they actually didn't, but whether it's for attention or money they still need to not do that crap. I can understand that it's flattering in a way, but the one time it happened to me, it was only a hair above the flattery I felt when some douche bag felt I had a nice enough radio in my car that he busted out my window and tore up my dash board trying to pull it out.

Goliath is literally Colossus plus the Bosendorfer 290 piano added to it on the PLAY engine. That's the only difference.

Fair enough, although I can't believe that you never hopped into a corner or closet/small room ever in L4D1. I mean, seriously, do you just stand in the hallway when you call the elevator in No Mercy hospital? Or stand in the middle of the street when you moved the forklift in Death Toll? Surely at some point you and your team retreated to an area that provided cover and funneled the infected where they'd be easier to defend against. Well, remember, there is going to be a chainsaw and a GL launcher. But otherwise, in the spirit/theme of the game, I can't imagine there's a whole lot more weapons they can add. Perhaps a rocket launcher of some sort (though the GL is probably close enough) and maybe a flame-thrower might be cool, although it'd be a pretty cheap weapon to use based on how most of the horde handles fire. Otherwise, I mean, I'm no firearms expert, but aside from pistol, shotty, autorifle, burst rifle, sniper rifle, and explosive, how many new types of guns could they add? I mean, technically, all guns are point and shoot bullet and therefor just variations of each other if you want to split hairs. I feel like the handling is reasonably diverse for the new tier 2 additions. But that's just me. I mean, I get what you're saying, but I'm just not sure what else there is to add that would be drastically new and innovative enough to satisfy what it is you're looking for. Well alright then. We were afraid you weren't recognizing any of the new features there for a sec Again man, it has less to do with different opinions and more to do with incorrect analysis. There's a difference in saying "I didn't like the way the weapons handle" or something and "The weapons all feel the same". You came right out and said stuff like "The hunter and the charger are basically the same zombie" because that makes about as much sense as saying that a smart car is basically the same as a corvette. They move and attack completely differently. The fact that both have the ability to pin a single survivor is something they can both do, but the hunter can't split up groups or knock people off a ledge or charge through a group and then run away. How are you missing that? As I've said numerous times already in this thread, none of us L4D fanboys are going to give a sideways crap if you or anyone doesn't care for the game or any other various aspects of it. It's the poor analysis and incorrect claims that spark the "WTF" reactions in us. If you're not sure what the difference is between not liking something and misjudging it is, then I'm not sure what to tell you. Carry on.

HEY. I told you to go make us a video! Now don't come back until it's done!

Fair enough, but I still don't think it's horrible. Not perfect, but I was willing to let the flaws slide. However, in the interest of keeping things moving, I relistened, and I think Andy's given you some solid advice on certain aspects to touch up. In particular, it is pretty over-compressed. You should probably throw some FreeG Stereo on that thing and get your peaks under 0.0 for starters. I do want to make it clear that I don't need a complete reworking at all, just tweak the mixing and turn the master down a bit so it's not so compressed. I'm pretty cool with the arrangent. And I liked the volume of the drums--thought it sounded much more driving and energetic. Don't mean to sound like a flip-flop with my vote, but I think it may be an uphill struggle anyway, so if you can tweak these things, PM any of us 4 and we'll get it back to the panel quickly. RESUBMIT

Well, crap. At the very least someone ought to plaster those all over the Steam boards so maybe Valve will get some ideas

oh what the eff man, is that real? that's badass!

It's fine to think in ideals as long as you don't let it skew your perspective of reality or the *big picture* etc. Anyway, so if we can all vote YES on "Support the music you love" then we can wrap this up and then all go have punch and pie over at neblix's house.

Well, I'd say most of the people on this board love music too. And honestly, I'm likely to buy music no matter who/where it came from if it speaks to me. If I hear a song on the radio tomorrow by Britney Spears and it embodies everything that I look for in music, then I'm probably going to buy it. If I didn't SOLELY for the reason that I felt that she didn't deserve my money, that's pretty reprehensible, wouldn't you say? And it would make me dishonest. If I had to guess at this point, I'd say that you're just trying to make a pull for under-appreciated music/musicians. And regardless of what side of this issue we're on, I'm sure we can all respect that. It's only in fairness that people have a right to create music for any purpose they see fit, whether it's a service to someone or just for the sake of expression itself. But the terms of it's creation shouldn't affect the value we give it once we've heard it. I agree that good music from small/poor/unlikely places should be supported so that they can make more of it. If some grass-roots kid makes awesome music on the internet but can't afford to pay his rent, then I hope that he does get support so that he CAN keep making music. If he happens to get recognition and sign a record label, and then starts touring and making 6+ digit figures, does that mean he's money-farming? No. He still deserves his success whether he's reached 10 listeners or 10 million. The core message here shouldn't be "support the artists who deserve it", but "support the artists you love. PERIOD." Whether or not they're making millions of dollars should have no impact on your perception of their music. TL:DR? Read Salluz's post

Can you give a specific example of what you're talking about? At what point of success does a musician start "money farming" their clients/customers/listeners? I mean, if you're talking about say, Kanye West, yeah he's a douche and thinks he's God's gift to all listeners everywhere and that he knows what's best for everybody. Otherwise, what are you referring to specifically here? I am asking in total sincerity here, because you make it sound like if somebody doesn't have much money, then they should have special access to music that others are paying for.

Irrational, emotionally driven replies like that [Gwil's I mean] are generally a good sign that the thread has run it's course.

I realize this thread has gone in about 9 circles by now, so I only feel compelled to say to all: http://dipstickremix.ytmnd.com/

Make this debate into one of your ZP-style flash videos or I will kill you. (not really, but it would make me very happy)

But wanting something for nothing in return is the very EPITOME of "entitlement".

Aren't you going to ask for her number now bro? Also, you're horrible about missing obvious points man. I'm gonna get Darke to slap you around for a bit. (And you're still calling her "he")

Eh, he only said that AFTER he was called out on this. But whatever, at least now he's admitted that it's merely his opinion.

'atta boy, now you're catching on

You have completely misunderstood me. Don't confuse the right of SAYING what price you want with GETTING the price you want. If I write a song and say that I'll sell the single for $100 on iTunes, you have NO right to dictate that I should not charge that much. Naturally, it's pretty unlikely that I'll sell much/any, but its still MY product. I put in the work, and I can charge however much I feel that it's worth. If I think it's worth that much people are paying me that much but you still think its too high, then I'm not really going to care what you're personal appraisal is. I'm not going to lower my price just because you're too cheap to pay it. And I realize the general public has sway over price, but that still doesn't mean any single one of us can tell someone their work should be cheap/free just because we want it to be.

It's actually pretty simple. Step 1) buy JBridge from here - http://jstuff.wordpress.com/jbridge/ Step 2) copy the "plugin_name.32.dll" file from the Jbridge directory into your VST Plugins directory Step 3) rename it to the appropriate plugin (ex. Omnisphere.32.dll) Step 4) repeat this process for as many plugins as you like *NOTE* Some plugins don't work well with JBridge, but in my own experience most of the big RAM-eaters work fine. Also, you only really need to do this for plugins that use a lot of memory.

I do NOT have the right. Any single person NEVER has the right personally to tell anyone else where to set their price. Now the collective public has a bit more chance of influencing that, but it's still not the same thing. If you think X amount of money is too much to pay for say, a TV, you have no right to tell stores how much they should sell you the TV you want for. Especially if other people ARE willing to pay the advertised price. If eventually people stop paying that price then it might benefit the sellers to consider lowering the cost but that doesn't mean that the TV wasn't ever worth its original price, it just means the value has changed. Again, I think you're thinking too much in ideals here, and it's a bit too heavily founded on your own personal opinions and appraisal. Nothing wrong with saying "Hey, I think OCR (etc.) is great because people are just making free music because they love the music." I think the thing that tripped you up was the bit about trying to say when it's ok to sell music, and under what terms.

I'm not man. I'm just pointing out that there's a lot of subjectivity in what you're saying. By all means, I personally don't listen to much of the crap that record companies produce because it generally doesn't suit my tastes. But that doesn't mean that nothing good ever comes from it or that I have the right to personally and solely dictate how much it's worth or how much they should be making off of it. And I was pointing out that objective and subjective are not the same thing.