Final Fantasy 4 'Boss Battle'

[Fantasy]

hi everyone.

I was introduced to this site about 4 years ago and I never got anything to a decent point of completion. at the time I was pretty proficient with Sonar but didn't have much composition skill. anyways, after a pretty long break from sequencing and a lot of detours I've decided to try and finally get some content up on here.

this started out as just me trying to figure out how to get drums in Reason to work with Logic, but then I started to mess around with this FF song and it turned into a remix. I just started using Logic this week, and so far it's MUCH harder to get things the way I want them than with Sonar. I did a lot more duplicating than I'd like, but Logic has given me a large headache that I still have right now for trying to edit fine details (it has so many weird quirks).

ANYWAYS, this is not mixed. I won't have my monitors set up for probably another month, so I'm mainly looking for comments on the arrangement. I haven't been able to get my keyboard fully working with logic, so this is all softsynths. also, I got a little inspiration from an old jazz standard called Little Sunflower for anyone familiar with it. Let me know what you think!

http://www.mediafire.com/?xdlloz54xht (update from above)

[Eino Keskitalo]

Uuuh, uuh, uuh, one of my favourite source soundtracks.

Even though you asked for arrangement comments only, the bass is so overpowering as it is it's a bit hard (for me) to hear past it. But you'll fix the muddiness, and I like the bass in general.

Ok, arrangement comments. I really like the drums, love those little rolls (or what are they?) on the snare. It's quite slow, which gives a very tense/anticipatory feel to the track. The organ is a bit.. light for that. It's also so quiet it's hard to notice. Which isn't necessarily a bad effect, it works great in the support role in the b-part (1:05 starting). I also *love* how the bass goes there.

I think in general you could add some tense soundscapes, sfx-style things to the mix, there's quite a bit of room there and it sounds a bit sparse, like there could be more stuff happening in there.

I'm just absolutely, absolutely ENVIOUS about the variations on the theme you start throwing in at 2:50. That's awesome, amazing stuff, hair-rising, back-of-arm-tingling! Wow. This makes me happy.

--Eino

[Gario]

Well Fantasy,

I'll admit, I love the source material. Because of this, however, I will be forced to be more strict on my listening and possible criticism, so beware

I really like that you've surprised us with a slow groove to chill to. Because it is considerably slower than the original, however, you must be careful with you sense of temporal space (in an arrangement like this, it is a potential killer).

Ok... After a few listenings, I'll have to say that there is enough material in here to hold my interest for four minutes. There are a lot of neat tricks you use to keep it interesting (the echoes at 0:35 are awesome, those little arppegiations in the melody at 1:06 are sweet, and your method of transitioning at 1:28 is inspiring). However, these little doodads and modifications are short in comparison with the piece's length. These 2-3 second modifications are spread very thin along the entire four minutes of music.

In reality, there are two real changes you must make compositionally to make this mix great. First, the repetition of material must never be just that in such a slow mix - a repetition. This encourages the listener to skip the music, and if the listeners are skipping music, then why is it there? Second, the drums, while being a great sample and a pretty neat groove, eventually drones over the listeners. In fact, I felt an enormous amount of relief at 2:47 when the drums dropped out for a while. That should not be so. I would recommend throwing a few changes to the pattern every once in a while (perhaps dropping a section like the hi hat, or the snare, or changing the pattern a touch). In a piece like this the drums are essential, but if they lull the listener into a stupor then it defeats the purpose of having them.

A final note is the transition. I love it. I think it is very much needed when you use it. Repeating the melody in the Lydian mode, however, just doesn't cut it for me. It may be personal opinion here, but it just sounds odd. I would recommend changing the tune almost completely there; the texture and material before and after should keep the continuity of the piece. Also, I'd look at the Parallel 5ths at 2:59-3:00; in some music they can work, but in here they don't.

I believe this has promise, as long as you adjust the arrangement accordingly. Of course, I can't comment the mix as you haven't dealt with it yet, so I'll trust you will change what needs to be changed . Really, I would love to hear more of 'you' in this! When I listen to it I am hunting for parts that sound personal rather than a simple iteration of the source. I shouldn't need to search for this; It should be pervasive throughout the mix.

I wish you the best of luck with this (I hope to see this someday on the front page)!

[Monobrow]

First off, I love this so far, glad to see that you've come back to OCR to give this a shot, and are willing to share.

Anyway...I'll start by saying the drums/bass is a little bit repetitive, but it still sounds nice.

However, being that I think the concept behind this mix is neat, I will say that, the song is just not quite "there" yet, in terms of OCR quality. See, in terms of arrangement, you have these long-held notes that just kind of drag on from the main theme, or repeat motifs over and over. I like them, and how they sound, and conceptually they are nicely true enough to the source without being too close... But it's just not enough.

You just need more going on behind the scenes... and since this is a synth song, go crazy with it... You have that opportunity. That or the neat organ you have playing... I love that... Anyway, what you need to happen here is you need something in the background to help contrast the main progressions you are building. You need to work in more synth-based counter-melody and chords/hits. Work that organ, arpeggiate those synths. The harmonies are neat, the synth sounds are nice, the soundscape is decent, the drums are pretty...but...

And the beat/bass, you need to take more liberties, be more experimental, take CONTROL of that beat you have going there. There's so much more you can do within a measure if you push yourself a little more. For example, at like 2:18 you do this 2 beat hit...with emphasis from organ... I liked that... So later on, why not try triplets?... Play tricks on the listener, get intimate with your beatz... Variety in a beat like you have going can do wonders.

Anyway... I do think the bass may be a little too overpowering, because I am listening with my headphones, and it is already a little drowning... But I won't say for sure myself... I'd just go with those others who said the same thing.

I love FFIV and this song, and this is neat for sure, the concept is lovely... Just push yourself.

p.s. I swear the part at like 2:20 reminds me of Mt. Koltz from FFVI or something similar, if so, nice work in.

p.p.s. If you need any help or more specific advice pm me.

Good luck.

[Vivi22]

Really, I would love to hear more of 'you' in this! When I listen to it I am hunting for parts that sound personal rather than a simple iteration of the source. I shouldn't need to search for this; It should be pervasive throughout the mix.

I wish you the best of luck with this (I hope to see this someday on the front page)!

I'll echo both of these statements. I would like to see you take more liberties with the source material. What's here is good, but it strikes me as more of a cover than a new interpretation. I think you've set up a good foundation, now you just need to build off of it a little more. I'll also agree with Gario that it can be a little too repetitious for a song of this length. Passages that repeat should have some new twist added to them to keep them fresh.

And I'll also point out that the drums are too repetitive as well. Don't get me wrong, it's a cool groove you have going on, but you do need to change it up some more. I'd say ditch the buzz strokes, maybe in favour of some more intricate and varied hi-hat stuff later, or try switching out the half time feel of the groove to add a sense of urgency. Those are just some pretty basic ideas I had to hopefully give you some inspiration on where to go with the percussion.

I like the piece so keep at it. I think if you can add a little more variety in there it'll improve it a lot. I can't wait to see what you come up with for later revisions.

[Fantasy]

thanks everyone for all your suggestions. I knew it was kinda repetitive, but like I said Logic was giving me trouble so I just gave up and duplicated everything. so after reading some of the manual and messing around with it I went back and made a bunch of changes; mainly to the drums. I probably over syncopated everything but that's just the kind of mood I'm in right now. there's also some new organ and bass parts... just listen to it. I think you'll find it phenomenally better than the first version.

there's still other stuff I plan to add, and the last section needs more changes, but yah I think it's pretty cool now.

http://www.mediafire.com/?m1nz1jmjwzd

[Vivi22]

I hear you on Logic giving you trouble. I've had Sonar 7 for a few months now and haven't had the time to learn it properly. It's a pretty big change from Reason, but oh well. Exams are done soon so I'll have all the time in the world.

On to the song; I do like this version a lot more. After my first couple of listens I'd say much of what bothered me about the drums before is fixed. The only thing I might take some issue with is that I think you're still overusing the snare rolls a bit at the sections that start at 2:20 and 3:25, but it might just be that I haven't given myself enough time between listening to this and the previous version. It still sounds good the first time it comes up, it's just that it comes back again with little variation a couple of times later and still started to wear on me a bit. But overall, you made some big improvements. I'll give my ears a bit of a break before giving it another listen and post some more comments if I have any.

[Monobrow]

Okay, nice improvements in the drums.

Also were those flutes I heard? They were a nice touch at 2:00.

The production is nice. The synths are nice as well, I have no problem with their sound or anything. They compliment each other nicely in their little duet they have going. I really like them.

Real nice and steady improvements.

BUT I WANT MORE! haha

Now for myself, I still kind of crave more chaos in this. It's a battle song, and you have a nice groove going, but it's still a battle, and the groove adds this nice contrast to what I think you could be doing with this theme.

Now you've got the drums doing more, but I think you could be pushing the envelope with everything else. To me, it still sounds too repetitive. The same synth pretty much basically headlines the song for almost it's entirety, and this will definitely wear on a listener's ears after a while. Not to sound harsh, because I hear the differences, however subtle, that you do with each part of this song. But if I were to sum up the song for someone else, I'd probably tag on that it does chorus/verse then rinse repeat.

Maybe for the second part where things get more intense, at around 1:40, add more instruments, do something crazy. Hell, have you considered maybe going a little orchestral behind this somehow? You just have so many options! Behind your chugging bass and drums, I can imagine string hits etc... Or to go along with your organ thing you already have going, you could do some badass chords with the synth duet at the end... To me, that'd be pretty natural considering the association with the bad guys in this game and the Golbez organ anyway.

SO yeah, basically I just still wish for more, to me it's still not quite there yet, though it is still quite satisfying. But push your limits, please.

BTW nice touch with the drums at 2:15 ish... That's what I'm talkin' 'bout

[Vivi22]

I just gave it a few more listens while reading Monobrow's comment. I think I have to agree that I'm looking for a little more, not necessarily chaos, but still some more variation in intensity. Like I've said all along, I like the song and it has a great groove, but I realized this time around that there isn't a lot of variation in the intensity of the song. It seems content to move along at the same pace the whole time, and doesn't really seem to build to anything in particular. I suppose I could best describe myself as looking for something of a climax that never really quite comes. I'm not saying you have to increase the tempo or necessarily thicken the arrangement too much, but I do like Monobrow's suggestion of adding in some more instruments or moving the melody to some other synth or instrument for a bit.

Another thing I sort of noticed is that the instrument that stands out as having the most presence is generally the drums throughout. I actually like that early on since I feel like it should be building up to something, but as it keeps going I kind of want something to really come to the forefront and stand out above everything else and really grab me. Right now it's the drums that stand out to me the most, and though I like what you're doing with them (and the drummer in me can't believe I'm saying this), I don't think they should be what I'm focusing on as a listener the whole way through.

Keep at it though, you're making some great improvements and I still want to see where you take it.

[Fantasy]

oh man, "just gave it a few more listens". that's intense, even though I've listened to it countless times now.. but I appreciate all the time you guys have put in. but yah, you're breakin' mah balls here, ya breakin' my balls. except for the last section there really isn't much in the arrangement that I would change, because it's basically at a point where I enjoy listening to it. but I also liked the first version that I put up, which now doesn't even compare.

so yah. it's hard for me to try and change something that I already like, but you guys are totally right that it can be better. I got take a step back from it for a little while, but I'm definitely going to do more. thanks for pushing me!

[SnappleMan]

Hmm, well, as far as mixing goes, you're doing it all wrong. Everything is completely dull and lifeless, you need to get more instruments to take advantage of the 500-1000hz range, it just sounds really badly scooped.

Arrangement wise, you have a few problems there too. For one, it's too slow, sounds boring. The instrumentation is lacking too. The sounds you chose are flat and boring. That lead is particularly bad, and the organ you have playing needs a more expressive performance. The drums sound fine, but again, with this slow tempo you really have to work harder to fill the space with rhythm. And I don't mean add more notes or drum hits, I mean think rhythmically and make the silence between the drumhits work for you. Also, the bass has to be changed to something that's not a droning piece of shit. Try layering some piano chords or SOMETHING to get a more lush sound out of this, it's too damn boring.

[Vivi22]

oh man, "just gave it a few more listens". that's intense, even though I've listened to it countless times now.. but I appreciate all the time you guys have put in. but yah, you're breakin' mah balls here, ya breakin' my balls. except for the last section there really isn't much in the arrangement that I would change, because it's basically at a point where I enjoy listening to it. but I also liked the first version that I put up, which now doesn't even compare.

so yah. it's hard for me to try and change something that I already like, but you guys are totally right that it can be better. I got take a step back from it for a little while, but I'm definitely going to do more. thanks for pushing me!

Hey, this is how we all improve right? I have no problem putting in some time to give people feedback. Try not to think of it as us trying to break your balls (well, maybe SnappleMan is ), so much as us being extra critical to push you to improve. It's always a little easier for people who weren't heavily involved in making it to sit back and find fault with something. Some of it may even be nitpicking and personal taste, but again, getting good feedback is how you improve.

I know it can be tough when you like a song you've made to hear criticism of it, but we're all just trying to help each other improve.

[Fantasy]

sooo... some more changes. the last 30 seconds is really harmonically/motive-ically weak/lame, it was an idea gone horribly wrong.. so it will be changed.. but not now, or anytime soon. I'm officially sick of hearing this. before the last 30 seconds there's a bunch of neat little changes though..

http://www.mediafire.com/?xdlloz54xht

[Vivi22]

I'm officially sick of hearing this.

Hehe, I think we've all been there before. Sometimes taking a break and working on other stuff then coming back to it later are the best thing you can do.

That said, I actually like this even more. Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think the last 30 seconds went horribly wrong at all. I actually really like what you have going on there. Maybe there's something you could do to build off of the idea or improve it a bit so it's more to your liking, but I enjoyed it.

And finally, since it's one of the highest form of flattery I can probably give, I had this song stuck in my head last night and today after I woke up (about 15 minutes ago). That doesn't happen to me often, but I genuinely enjoy this song.

[Fantasy]

So after 4 months I've decided to start working on this again. I spent some time attempting to clean up the mix, and it's definitely better than it was. not really sure where to go with the arrangement, I might add some strings or something.. I wish I could play guitar, that's what I'd like to here on it. give it a listen friends and tell me what you think!

http://www.mediafire.com/?lfhplijxdyo

In case anyone hasn't heard the source:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP_jhyCffR4

[Rozovian]

Intro organ could be louder, would be awesome to hear it more than the drums, but that could screw with the sound balance later on.

Source/interpretation: The sound is significantly changed and you've elaborated on it. I think you're in the green as far as source/interpretation is concerned. I especially liked the sections in the end.

I want an organ solo somewhere. Not to screw with your plans and ideas for the arrangement, but the organ is among the coolest sounds in the mix. Some sustained synth notes could use a bit of a vibrato/tremolo, something to make them less static.

I'm surprised at the energy this has when the drums aren't playing. Drums seem to be holding it back, strangely. Which isn't encessarily a bad thing, it's got a very interesting pacing. I'm wondering how it'd sound with the drums twice as fast, tho. Not sure what I think about the drum balance either, the snare sounds panned, but it also sounds panned of necessity.

Overall, I think you're close to the acceptance bar. Good stuff.

[Eino Keskitalo]

Oh man, I liked this before, now it's starting to reach absolutely fantastic.. It's such a joy to listen to already. A lot of improvements since I last heard it! I read my previous reply, and the bass is certainly not overpowering in the mix anymore. I really like how it sounds and how it "crawls".. the whole piece has this constant slow forward motion to it. I think the arrangement sounds pretty complete.

Drums sound as fine as I recall they sounded before, with more variation, which is appreciated. Very nice rhythmical hooks. The organ now sounds like it's right where it should be in the mix.

I agree with Rozo about the long sustained synth notes.. some tremolo might be great. Some synth lead sounds don't feel like they gel in the mix 100% yet, namely the first one. It sounds a bit too "clean" to my ears. I'd love it if you could make them sound a bit "dirtier", like if they were played thorugh an miked amp/speaker instead of straight to digital "tape". There's such a nice sense of room with the drums and organ, that there is a bit of contrast between different sounds. Most synths, such as the one that sounds like a theremin, sound pretty good already. The one I named specifically is ok too, just not quite there yet. Overall there's a nice, consistent palette of synth sounds. I like the decorative details stuff.

Keep it up! I'm keeping this wip already, and can't wait for further incremental improvements!

--Eino