Norfair - Work In Progress

[hewhoisiam]

Okay, so I wasn't going to release this yet, but since we're talking about changing keys of the whole thing and the general sound. I re-wrote the bass part, which is still rough. But that popcorn thing you talked about is gone (tbh, it was toned down and all but gone before we had the 'dissonance' discussion:-P) This is w/o changing any keys yet.

New bass part:

http://www.mediafire.com/?5mcryohmnjm

[SLyGeN]

You guys are getting music approved on this site and you don't even know simple keys? How do you know where your music is going to go? I rely on musical keys/modes as a guide.

Norfair begins in the Phrygian mode. You'll notice the motif then becomes higher in pitch. It's a "real" transposition. The key changes. It starts in C Phrygian. (Whoever said C was always white keys made me rage.) It then moves to Eb/D# Phrygian. Yeah, Phrygian sounds "minor-ish" because Phrygian is the same as minor, except the second note is diminished.

Phrygian.. .. well. It's certainly not ancient and lost. At the same time, it's not nearly as common as it should be. You want the key signature? It's the same as the minor-key signature of the same note, with that one added flat. There's an order to the sharps and flats, so just tack it on there and you'll have it. There's a system to this whole music biz.

Example. C minor has three flats. E, A, and B. C Phrygian flats the two, which is D. Well the order goes BEADGCF. We already had BEA, and holy shit, D came next!

So the motifs are all in Phrygian, and they progress like this: C, Eb, Gb, A. Then your descent happens in E Phrygian (all white keys, make note of that please.)

This is all based on a midi I have, and this theme is one of my favorites. I'm pretty sure the midi is accurate. If, by chance, the midi varies, then you have a prime idea of a new direction to take the song. I don't think it does, though.

Now that you know (some) of the keys that it's in, it'll be easy for you to add new material. Just crawl up and down that phrygian scale, throw a few leaps in there maybe. See if it sounds good. If not, rinse and repeat. There was one instance in your piece that I think I heard the Spanish-Phrygian scale used. Ah, yes, here at 1:10. The bass plays Bb, C, Db, C correct? But the Bb sounds like an augmented A, and then the C, and then the C# which would be in A Spanish-Phrygian. You want a new route to go with this piece? Throw that extra exotic flair in there. Wherever your third interval is, try augmenting that. It'll sound like you're in Arabia or Egypt. Cool shit.

Alrighty then. But you know Hewo, there's an easy solution Change the ENTIRE key of the song to a key that has sharps and flats. My theory skills are crappy at best, so I couldn't tell you which key change would be suitable. Maybe try G??

So, to put you both at ease. Like I said, starts in C Phrygian. The scale is as follows: C, Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C. Yes, it has flats. Yes, it's in C (Phrygian). When the song moves to E, like I said, that is when it'll be on all white keys. That's why everyone associates E with Phrygian, C with Major, etc. Those are the tonics that utilize white keys only. (B! B! )

Also, Circle of Fifths/Fourths. If you want to move to a new key, you can usually move a fifth or a fourth away without disrupting the listener. Sometimes I like to move everything up a half-step to create suspense and tension.

[hewhoisiam]

Thanks for the reply. Sorry if you misunderstood.

1) I have never had a song accepted to OCR, I've just posted 2 things here in the WIP section, as I learned the software and (some) music theory. I realize nothing is up to par with OCR standards, and have never submitted anything. I am here to learn, and to work with this as a hobby. Though I try to never do anything half-assed.

2) My skills are what I pick up here, and a basic high school understanding of music. (never took music theory) I have been a percussionist and jazz band drummer. (class of 04, so that's been 5 years ago)

As far as knowing simple keys, I understand key signatures, but only really major scales, some harmonic, some minor. Phrygian is a whole new word for me, so no, I don't know what it means. (I'm actually looking up the meaning now) I had no idea. You almost seem insulted that I was clueless. (thanks for the post anyway:puppyeyes:)

'I' said C was all white keys, or 'no sharps no flats' because when I learned 'C MAJOR' on mallets (which is all white notes) it's C to C, no half steps, pretty straight forward. Ancient and lost, no. Ancient and lost to me, absolutely. I did know about C minor, which would have just a single half step off.

I admire midi writers, for a few reasons. One of which is that they can use midi and write thing that sound a lot better than mine. The other is their ability to hear notes and know what they are. (I've run into a few people really good at piano that can do this. hear and recreate) It's fucking awesome! I CAN'T GOD DAMNED DO IT! I can't match pitch when it's in the same damn scale; much less follow key changes.

So, I'm about 10-12 steps below your abilities. Thanks for the crits and key signature analysis. I'll do what I can to make something of it.

[hewhoisiam]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_mode

[HoboKa]

Oh, nice thx for clarifying Slygen. I think I know who to bug if I need any theory help ;-D

[Gario]

Damn, this tread got hot real quick! I was gonna respond earlier to Hoboka, but it filled up with 7 more threads!

Well, the first 30 seconds seem fine, but the melody, rhythm and chords seem to all clash afterward.

I see what your calling dissonant, Hoboka... I understand the mix up, there. The reason I didn't (not 'couldn't', by the way) hear it was because I create that clash purposefully all the time in my own music. The bass doesn't move while the rest of the notes (melody and the rest of the harmony) do. Perhaps not as much in this mix, but it often is a great way to create light tension. My ears have gotten so used to hearing this dissonance I really don't hear it as such anymore. I listen to music linearly (eg how the music works in motion, not harmonically, per se), so sometimes I miss certain things when I listen.

Gario that's a little dissapointing that you can't hear the dissonance here, I thought you're a pretty decent composer dood.

Music is an interesting subject, in that a lot of it is really subjective. Listening is one of those factors; I hear the music differently than other people do, based on my listening history (everyone listens to things differently, BTW). If I miss something in a listen through, it's because my ears were listening for something else (or interpreted the music differently). That's why I ask people for what they hear - I need different ears to hear different things, not because I ar an stupid, but because my ears tend to overwrite some things to hear others

Ok, now that I'm aware of it, it's the swell that's causing the dissonance. The reason Hoboka believed it was the other instruments is because as the deepest bass instrument the swell will automatically sound like the 'correct' instrument - it's supposed to define the key. It doesn't do this very well here; I *cough sort of cough* agree with Hoboka about the dissonance, but to fix it, you'll need to change the swell instrument's notes to match the harmony, not the popcorn instrument so much...

BTW, in the new mix, the added bass notes are off. Have them match the harmony a bit better - those are dissonances that I am aware of

That's why everyone associates E with Phrygian, C with Major, etc.

Heh heh, if you want to go there, I'd call it C Ionian...

You'll notice the motif then becomes higher in pitch. It's a "real" transposition.

SLyGeN is right about the transposition thing. BTW, a real transposition (for those that don't know) is when a motive or idea's notes are transposed exactly the same amount, note for note, despite the key it's in. It's distinguished from a tonal transposition, which is when the idea's notes are moved up or down in relation to the key or mode it's in. He didn't clarify, so I wanted to give you an idea as to why it could be significant (possibly give you some ideas to use for your own mix )

[progressive]

You guys are getting music approved on this site and you don't even know simple keys? How do you know where your music is going to go? I rely on musical keys/modes as a guide.

Norfair begins in the Phrygian mode. You'll notice the motif then becomes higher in pitch. It's a "real" transposition. The key changes. It starts in C Phrygian. (Whoever said C was always white keys made me rage.) It then moves to Eb/D# Phrygian. Yeah, Phrygian sounds "minor-ish" because Phrygian is the same as minor, except the second note is diminished.

Phrygian.. .. well. It's certainly not ancient and lost. At the same time, it's not nearly as common as it should be. You want the key signature? It's the same as the minor-key signature of the same note, with that one added flat. There's an order to the sharps and flats, so just tack it on there and you'll have it. There's a system to this whole music biz.

Example. C minor has three flats. E, A, and B. C Phrygian flats the two, which is D. Well the order goes BEADGCF. We already had BEA, and holy shit, D came next!

So the motifs are all in Phrygian, and they progress like this: C, Eb, Gb, A. Then your descent happens in E Phrygian (all white keys, make note of that please.)

This is all based on a midi I have, and this theme is one of my favorites. I'm pretty sure the midi is accurate. If, by chance, the midi varies, then you have a prime idea of a new direction to take the song. I don't think it does, though.

Now that you know (some) of the keys that it's in, it'll be easy for you to add new material. Just crawl up and down that phrygian scale, throw a few leaps in there maybe. See if it sounds good. If not, rinse and repeat. There was one instance in your piece that I think I heard the Spanish-Phrygian scale used. Ah, yes, here at 1:10. The bass plays Bb, C, Db, C correct? But the Bb sounds like an augmented A, and then the C, and then the C# which would be in A Spanish-Phrygian. You want a new route to go with this piece? Throw that extra exotic flair in there. Wherever your third interval is, try augmenting that. It'll sound like you're in Arabia or Egypt. Cool shit.

So, to put you both at ease. Like I said, starts in C Phrygian. The scale is as follows: C, Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C. Yes, it has flats. Yes, it's in C (Phrygian). When the song moves to E, like I said, that is when it'll be on all white keys. That's why everyone associates E with Phrygian, C with Major, etc. Those are the tonics that utilize white keys only. (B! B! )

Also, Circle of Fifths/Fourths. If you want to move to a new key, you can usually move a fifth or a fourth away without disrupting the listener. Sometimes I like to move everything up a half-step to create suspense and tension.

Pretty indulgent here, man. Where can we find your remixes?

[SLyGeN]

Pretty indulgent here, man. Where can we find your remixes?

I don't yet have mixing knowledge or ability. Just theory. So with all of the electronica bias, I haven't bothered to submit yet. I'd love to try, though. I just need to familiarize myself with Cubase.

If you want to hear a couple of tracks that I've made in Guitar Pro, you can listen at www.myspace.com/slygenaural

I'm bad at percussion, too.

Heh heh, if you want to go there, I'd call it C Ionian...

Yes, this. But I figured if Phrygian was a foreign term, Ionian would be as well.

Major key and Ionian are indeed mutually exclusive, as are minor key and Aeolian.

I actually had to correct somebody on this website who specifically said that Aeolian and minor key were not the same. I can't remember where, but that made me rage, too.

Oh, nice thx for clarifying Slygen. I think I know who to bug if I need any theory help ;-D

If you've got questions, I'll try to have answers. Feel free.

[HoboKa]

Music is an interesting subject, in that a lot of it is really subjective. Listening is one of those factors; I hear the music differently than other people do, based on my listening history (everyone listens to things differently, BTW). If I miss something in a listen through, it's because my ears were listening for something else (or interpreted the music differently). That's why I ask people for what they hear - I need different ears to hear different things, not because I ar an stupid, but because my ears tend to overwrite some things to hear others

Sorry, guess I got a little too asshole-ish there. Getting critiqued by assholes/pretentious pricks who think they are gurus tends to do that to certain people so that was my bad.

[TheKrow]

I don't yet have mixing knowledge or ability. Just theory. So with all of the electronica bias, I haven't bothered to submit yet. I'd love to try, though. I just need to familiarize myself with Cubase.

If you want to hear a couple of tracks that I've made in Guitar Pro, you can listen at www.myspace.com/slygenaural

I'm bad at percussion, too.

Man, that's pretty good stuff for Guitar Pro. The first track seems sooooo familiar though, I just can't put my finger on where I've heard it before...

[SLyGeN]

Man, that's pretty good stuff for Guitar Pro. The first track seems sooooo familiar though, I just can't put my finger on where I've heard it before...

Sprout Procession? Big hint in the title; it's from Pokémon Crystal.

The second one is original material all throughout. But I have the RSE instrument sets. They really don't sound very good, although it's much better than general midi (which is what would be used in place of RSE.)

[Gario]

I got so distracted on this thread I almost forgot there was music on here! Oops, I'll give a critique of V5 now .

I like the drums on this version much better; they're more varied and interesting.

The break is even better, as well, due to the 'echo' sound that brings it in

As I mentioned before, the dissonance is caused by your swelling bass. It doesn't move when the rest of the music does. Have that thing move according to what harmonies you'd like to represent, it'll help the piece as a whole. Listen to 0:48 for the first example

of when this is a problem, but it continues throughout the entire song.

The lead at 1:10 is off. Move the whole thing up a perfect 4th, to the same notes as the next part. If you need some variety, mess with something else (like the timbre), not the notes in this case. It leaps around from the correctly pitched tune to the incorrectly pitched tune, back and forth for a while. I'd recommend shortening this to a single repetition and move on.

I've always liked the Egyption-like melody at 1:48. Just thought I'd let you know

At 2:11, you do the same thing as earlier. I'd vary it a little bit from the last one.

I say again, it sounds like it wants to keep going

Keep it up; we're still listening to your track, here!

I don't yet have mixing knowledge or ability. Just theory. So with all of the electronica bias, I haven't bothered to submit yet. I'd love to try, though.

We're on the same boat, there. I've got theory/comp chops, and I'm getting better at mixing, but it's still sub-par compared to the other mixers on the site. Post something - I'm sure someone with good mixing abilities will try to help you out (it's what I'm doin' )

Major key and Ionian are indeed mutually exclusive, as are minor key and Aeolian.

I actually had to correct somebody on this website who specifically said that Aeolian and minor key were not the same. I can't remember where, but that made me rage, too.

I don't know what the other person was talking about, there. They have the same key signatures and things, so you were probably right in correcting him...

...although if you talk about how each is used, technically they are different. Minor is a harmonic phenomena, based on the theory and practice of ~1600 - 1900, while Aeolian is based on the contrapuntal practice of ~1250 - 1550. If you use the key/mode as it should be used, then the music produced will sound very different. It's like the fact that A# and Bb are the same note, but in the context of the music they mean something different, so they will sound different to the listener. It's a small detail, but as it looks like your into theory, SlyGeN, I want to keep things interesting ...

[SLyGeN]

I'm sure you're correct with regard to the time frame, but I'd be interested to see exactly what differences you mean as far as usage of the mode is concerned.

The reason I don't want to ask someone else to help me is because all of the original material and variations are done by me. All I need is the better samples and to tweak some mixer settings and I should be golden to post a WIP. It's such a small step.

[Gario]

I'm sure you're correct with regard to the time frame, but I'd be interested to see exactly what differences you mean as far as usage of the mode is concerned.

Well, I don't have any exact samples of music from 1250 - 1550 off the top of my head, but I can think of an example later using an older style. Look up Haydn's oratory 'The Creation' and check out the first movement. Try to analyze it harmonically... it'll blow your brain out. Haydn used earlier contrapuntal writing vs the harmonic style of his time to achieve the sound he had. Analyzing this piece as a giant counterpoint exercise, it makes a whole lot more sense. I might try to find a better example later (one that is actually from the time period...).

Compare the sound from this to another piece in minor. Same chords, same notes, but the different usage gives the piece a modal (not harmonic) feel. This is the difference I'm talking about

... Perhaps we should move this topic to another thread? This is the second thread I've helped take off topic here in a week ...

Sorry, Hewhoisiam; I've done it again

[HoboKa]

Better yet Hewo. You could use a completely different bass sample that doesn't swell or have weird filter effects or w/e. Use a generic synth-like bass sample and work from there, because the J's will not accept it with that dissonance. They are pickier than a mating panda, trust me... personal experience here.

Otherwise it's purty good here

[hewhoisiam]

... Perhaps we should move this topic to another thread? This is the second thread I've helped take off topic here in a week ...

Sorry, Hewhoisiam; I've done it again

Nah, just gives me more buzzwords to look up:-P

On a side note, I upgraded today from my skullcandy ear canal buds to some Sennheiser HD 280 pros. You could say there's a bit of difference8-O (for clarification, I use some nice 5.1 surround phones to listen to most of the music on here, but I output sonar to my stereo, since it's using a different audio card.

YESTERDAY, I hammered out another bass part and moved the swelling chords to match the song progress, rather then having them static. Few other minor tweaks, mostly to the breaks. Today I'm doing something with the end. Which has become the most painful part of this:sleepdepriv:

[Gario]

Actually, this is the piece I was thinking of...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK6-ABKvONE

This is before day 1. It represents CHAOS!!

BTW - this was written in 1802... over 20 years before Beethoven wrote the 9th. Very interesting, considering how complex this thing is.

[SLyGeN]

Well, I don't have any exact samples of music from 1250 - 1550 off the top of my head, but I can think of an example later using an older style. Look up Haydn's oratory 'The Creation' and check out the first movement. Try to analyze it harmonically... it'll blow your brain out. Haydn used earlier contrapuntal writing vs the harmonic style of his time to achieve the sound he had. Analyzing this piece as a giant counterpoint exercise, it makes a whole lot more sense. I might try to find a better example later (one that is actually from the time period...).

Compare the sound from this to another piece in minor. Same chords, same notes, but the different usage gives the piece a modal (not harmonic) feel. This is the difference I'm talking about

... Perhaps we should move this topic to another thread? This is the second thread I've helped take off topic here in a week ...

Sorry, Hewhoisiam; I've done it again

I listened to the beginning of this one, until it moved out of the minor mode.

I notice the difference; it sounds very gothic to me (in the modern sense of the word gothic). I can't say I've ever seen this style exclusively attributed to Aeolian or exclusively to minor though.

Yes we should continue this discussion here because it's a Norfair WIP, and Norfair kicks ass. Keep it at the top of the list so it gets attention.

edit: The video you posted sounds like it moves in and out of the minor mode.

[hewhoisiam]

:sleepdepriv:UPDATE: http://www.mediafire.com/?4nnhyzyxytz

First things first, no. This is not the ending, not even close to the length I want. But I decided that writing an original ending would take quite a while, so this is the rest of it up to that point. And I took off the cop out ending.

Changes:

1) Bass part re-written: My last bass part with the 16th notes and the 2 bass sounds (one was the popcorn synth, focus of animosity and debate) sounded cluttered, and I had intended the notes that were 'off' to be a half step lower to be something like wheel bends on the bass. But they just sounded erhm. bad8-O Putting them in the key/mode made them sound like they belonged there, but didn't have the effect I wanted. This bass part is pretty simple, I may change it again. As is, it gets boring.

2) Added back in a chord part that was in the original. This was going to have that 'popcorn' synth playing the part, but I canned the popcorn synth totally, and had a synth I liked still laying around... You know, combinations of squares I need to get in those round holes... I'm still trying to decide what to do to fill in some bass sounds. The bass now has some issues for longer notes as well that I want to work out, because the piece is not very bass intensive, except in those long notes on the breaks and decending paterns that need the tweaking.

3) Swells changed to be non static: This is where said dissonance came from, The popcorn synth was spot on with the chords (I still could never get it to do what I wanted though) As the swells get higher though, some of the low bass sound loses its edge. I may look into dropping down octives or doing something else with it entirley. I wonder how much I can abuse EQ to make it work.

4) Break tweaks: Changed various minor things with the breaks, added transitions, panning, and volume efects to try and make them more tense. 50/50 now, I can't decide if I want to change them again or leave them as is.

[Gario]

This is sounding a whole lot better, man! Seriously!

This is beginning to have an energy behind it that I can't quite describe... except the ending... *coughcopeoutcough*

Really, I'm glad Hoboka got on my case about the dissonance, 'cause when you changed the swells around, it came together really, really well. The added harmony also fits perfectly, as well. It fills the soundscape much better now (which was something that bothered me about this for a while). Nice changes there

I don't feel it loses an edge when the bass moves up, but I'll tell you right now, don't move it farther down. If you move the swells down, the overtones will muddy the entire mix, sending it all to hell. Be careful with bass instruments - if they're too low or loud, the overtones will create a 'sonic dissonance' (made up term - dissonance that isn't 'written' but can be heard) that you won't be able to fix.

At 1:11, the melody is still very off.

The lead at 1:10 is off. Move the whole thing up a perfect 4th, to the same notes as the next part. If you need some variety, mess with something else (like the timbre), not the notes in this case. It leaps around from the correctly pitched tune to the incorrectly pitched tune, back and forth for a while. I'd recommend shortening this to a single repetition and move on.

I've made comments about this part before, so those comments still hold.

Yes, the ending is crap right now, and you know it. Look at the new harmony instrument you've added - you can put an emphasis on it (or another instrument) to create a change in texture. When you move on with this, try not to move into your old texture - it's been playing for some time. You'll need to do something a bit more fresh if you want people to stay interested in this. Just a tip when you continue

Edit: Cripes!! I didn't even hear any panning! The headphones I'm using we're set on 'Mono'! Oops, I've got to give this another go in a bit!

SlyGeN, about the video I posted - sorry about the quality. I just put something up there... I'll need to post something from DuFay or something later, as becaus as the piece is more contemporary than the style, it blends the harmonic style with the contrapuntal one. That's probably why you hear it moving in and out of minor. I'll try to make myself a bit clearer than this video

[Nutritious]

I've heard a couple versions of this track and am definitely hearing improvement. However, there's a lot more that needs to be done to improve this track IMO.

-Intro: bass can work, but needs more meat. I see what you're doing with the panning, but it's too extreme: just don't pan it so far to the sides. It also needs some supporting instrumentation, it's way too exposed and lonely as is. Whether it be pads, or some sort of percussion pushed into the background, etc it needs support

-Kit: Decent beat I think, though it's pretty close in the mix. Maybe push it back with a tad of verb or something. It's also getting hit with compression pretty hard when other instruments come in. If you listen, it sounds like the volume drops on the drums when other stuff comes in. Need to mix it so things are clashing so much.

-Development: This is one of the main weaknesses here IMO. The structure you've got going is a bit strange. Drum Kit make a sudden, brief appearance and disappear in the beginnning. Then suddenly it goes to the low bass part, the back to the beat again. Parts kind've come in and out suddenly with no transitions to prepare the listener. IMO this is one of the hardest things to hear and be able to improve on. It's all about getting a bigger picture look between the parts so it sounds like a cohesive song that's telling a progressing story. As is, even though there are several parts going at a time, it still FEELS sparse as a whole.

-Some of the synth choices are a bit weak, like that popcorn-ish synth IMO. Try to make your synths move or have more life. Modulation, filters, automation, anything.

-Beyond that, there are some audible artifacts, which I'm not sure is due to clipping, or some overcompression or what. Sounds like when drums are hitting with other instruments at the same time.

So yeah, negative crits like this kinda suck cause they're not much fun to get. Hopefully it's been helpful, though. You've obviously got some talent with remixing, though, which is why I've taken the time to write the above.

It's up to you whether you want to continue on this song or move onto more material. I personally feel that when starting out, it's really beneficial to try and work on a lot of different projects rather than being stuck on one. It's easy to get bogged down trying to improve a specific song early on. A good way to get this practice is through competitions like PRC or ORC on the Competitions forum. It'll force you to work on a song in a time limit and then move on after a week. Those were a huge part of getting me started, so they may help you as well.

Good luck.

[Gario]

Nutritious is a good OC remixer, so if he critiques a mix, it generally means it's worth critiquing in the first place. That's good, yeah?

Obviously, with all of us hammering your song, you can take crits as they are - something to help you. It's always nice to have a remixer come in and give feedback, since they've gone through the J's before

I agree with him on the panning; it's too extreme when you use it. We need some more centering in the mix, else it scares people away. Use panning - it's a great tool - just not to the extreme that it is used. I didn't hear it before 'cause my headphones were set to 'Mono' ...

It's up to you whether you want to continue on this song or move onto more material.

My take on starting many new projects... well, it depends on what you feel you need to work on. If it's the actual 'arrangement' portion, then starting many new mixes will indeed help much more than beating on a single one down. On the other hand, if your looking at working on production then perfecting a single piece would be much better practice. Most new people do need to work on arrangement before production, so I see what Nutritious was saying here. I personally would recommend the middle road here - work on new music (for the arrangement value) while perfecting a single piece of your choice. The best of both worlds, right? Also, it sometimes helps to step away from a piece for a while and come back, if ideas aren't coming for you

[hewhoisiam]

Panning is kinda in no man's land for this. I should really look into the surround effects maybe. I did have it going from about 70% L to 70% R, but I wanted my panning gimmick to stand out more. As for the compressor eating my sound, right now I have much weaker knees on the multiband compressor then I used last time, I'll have to play with it. I've had some chopping issues before with these settings. To be fair, compression and EQ I don't really know a whole lot about.

As far as general feel; I toyed with the idea of starting the piece over when I first added the breaks. My thought behind harsh quick transitions and an 'eerie' sort of break is trying to have some suspense and sort of tension. With this still being mostly standard, there's just those few places where I dropped in a few measures. Most of the ideas in this are 16 bars long, so a 4 measure break makes things feel unbalanced overall. (sonar is great for putting blank measures in, but it's hell to take them BACK OUT again. Real good job there guys, nice:| (you basically have to move all your tracks. Moving a track cancels any grooveclip settings AKA drum step sequences all get reset. And you can't move track and bus automations at the same time/at all. So you have to re-do all of those) Before I do that, I'd like to have a pretty good idea how much and where.

Now, I'm listening to 1:11 to try an hear this off beat in the melody, And I'm not getting it. Methinks it could be because this is the section right after the Spanish Phrygian scale, and would technically be a key change since my breaks and the descending are technically written in E Phrygian, that first little bit is a key signature change back to C Phrygian. (Wow, that makes me look smarter then I really am. Don't tell anyone that I stumbled onto that spanish part and kept it because it sounded good) That may also be where the 'true transposition' that was discussed is making it sound a little bit off. I origionally overlooked it because I kept the notes of the midi melody as is without changing them, so I was hoping fixing everything else would pull the whole thing together in that area. I'll have to take another look at it I guess.

Ack, getting late. Gotta get outta here!

Thanks

-H

[TheKrow]

I really like the feel of this mix you got here, especially with the hard drums. Keep that up and make them stand out more, but so they don't fight with the other sounds. Perhaps add some more background percussion too, as a compliment? Lighter percussion at different velocities might work.

I kinda find that some synths don't really fit with your other one's too. I know it can be tough finding the perfect matches.

Transitioning is kind of bad; seems too abrupt to me even though you're going for that "sudden" feel. If you don't think reverse cymbal crashes will fit well, try quick fade-ins so the new instruments won't attack your ears as fast. I think a pad along with the bass in the beginning will help it along greatly.

I also recommend trying some filtering effects with some instruments, it could help get that feel you want.

...and so my two cents has been added.

[HoboKa]

Daag bro, I wish Nutritious would critique my stuff T_T, anyways I agree with all of his points, especially the last. To become a great composer/sequencer you need to play with all forms of different projects, from classical to DnB (or hybrid) to whatever the hell you want - just make sure you practise practise practise. That's how I improved.

Certain people on these forums used to tell me that I couldn't compose, yet here I am, making half decent stuff , I still have a long ways to go though. And so do you, but don't let that put you down - and especially don't let any one's comments make you shy away from your dreams.

So my advice, start some new projects and try to get that ear for key, among other things like cogency (which I still feel weak at) and transitions. Good luck mah boi