Metroid Prime - Phendrana ReMix

[HyruleanTubist]

Here's what I'm working on, I took the Phendrana Drifts theme and added some counterpoint as well as some interesting (I think) reworking of some of the melodies. This version is fairly complete, I've updated one of the synths and done a lot of tweaking with balance and levels, as well as limiting the entire track to avoid clipping. I also realize how much I hate mp3. This sounds next to nothing like the source, but that's a rant for another time.

[Edit] Updated the link to give the current version of the ReMix (now without clipping!!). Also it has a cool banner because I copied the text properly this time from tindeck.

[DrumUltimA]

nice job man! I like the changes you've made since the last time I heard this. I will say that I think the kick is actually too loud when it first comes in, now--I'm hearing it interfere with the rest of the tracks. In the first section with the kit, I'd like to hear some more variation in your high hat now that you've changed up the grove a little bit. More fills throughout the track on the drums will also help the flow a lot. When the drums come in the second time near the end, they're still a little weak overall--mainly the snare. The kick at this section is fine. The fill that you used at the end was kickass! If you have drum writing chops like that, then go back and humanize the rest of the part.

The fixes you've made in panning and balance aside from the drums are excellent. I like your counterpoint a lot--You may want to consider using some sort of pad to lay down supporting chords. Right now the texture is still somewhat empty, and the right pad can really set up the atmosphere you're going for.

Good work so far, and good luck!

[Rozovian]

The metallic percussion sounds a little too lo-fi to work as an ice cave for me. Something cleaner, more bell/vibes-like might work better, like the arpeggio you add just after the drums come in.

I gotta agree with Doug about the kick, the drums are really loud compared to the other tracks... mostly because all the other tracks are so soft. Bring the drums down a bit, and work with their sound - it sounds completely unprocessed. Same with the mono synth line, sound unprocessed, but nice work writing your own take on it.

When you finally get into the groove there's a lot of stuff going on all over, making the track pretty messy. Picking/making a more crystalline ice cave sound might clean it up a bit. The panning bothers me the most, or perhaps the timbre of the metallic perc, but I'm sure you can use EQ and other tools as well to clean it up.

Doug's idea of using a pad is a god one. Even softly at -20dB or something it suports the tracks and fills up those empty parts well. besides, adding a layer of chords isn't a bad idea since you can control the emotion of the piece with them.

Cool to have the item jingle at the end. This is a pretty cool track, but you gotta clean it up and polish it a bit more before it has a shot on ocr.

[jezon2000]

I think this a solid start, but the synth textures need sharpening and the whole mix feels like it kind of meanders. That does capture the mood of exploration, but it doesn't really pay off unless there's also a feeling of discovery / awe for me. One issue is the clashing aesthetics from the beginning, which is a very mechanical, post-industrial kind of mood, and the idea of a shimmering ice cave. I also thought the bass synth was kind of goofy and could be replaced with something a little darker and more alien.

Overall though, the parts just before the breakdown and the breakdown about halfway through the mix were the parts I liked the best--with the exception of the sour second run of the phendrana piano synth. I love the sound of the synth, but the second run sounds off to me. I don't remember if it was part of the original composition, but even if it was I'd tweak it because the first run of the synth brought a cool mood to the mix that the second run kind of ruined. I guess after the breakdown I was expecting some kind of new intensity but the mix just sort of went back to what it was doing before. Basically I agree with Rozovian; clean it up some.

Looking forward to the next update, but still, nice work so far. You've got a cool concept and some cool textures, and I think if you really develop those aspects and play them up with some intensity this will be an excellent remix.

[HyruleanTubist]

So I took a lot of what you guys said into consideration, and here's my updated mix. Major changes are the complete removal of the metal noises, and a completely reworked drum track. A few extra high bell parts are in there as well, to keep the ice cave feeling up, although during the bigger sections I let the main theme do that job. Let me know what you guys think now! I'll put the new version in the first post.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Much better!!!

However it clips a little a little so you might wanna fix the velocities.

In the piano solo where it goes up and down in the source... I liked what you did, but when you brought it again in a minor key, I said "Blech!" I didn't really like that change...

So what you might wanna focus on next is either fixing the velocities so your synths don't clip.

Or I RECOMMEND changing your synths. They seem a little low quality to me.

[HyruleanTubist]

Whoops, don't know how clipping got through my listening. I'll have a fresh version without clipping up shortly.

As for the piano part, its not a minor scale, its an octatonic scale. And it ain't budging, I like it. Sounds cool and gives a nice tonal ambiguity. Did you notice that when the main theme comes in again in the second big section, it has gone up a half step to C# minor? Yeah, cool stuff.

As for the synths, I'm working off of Logic 7 Express. However, Logic 9 Pro is in the mail and I'm really hoping it shows up tomorrow, so I should have access to some much better synths and samples then.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Uh...

First of all, you shouldn't rely on the samples of your program. You should get some samples online.

Next, what I'm referring to is 2:29. That part. I can tell you RIGHT THERE is where the problem is.

1. It's a beat too early.

2. I find the notes there unpleasant. You may not agree but my advice is put here whether it be taken or not: That change pretty much doesn't fit the rest of the song. If you left it the way the source had it, it would be nicer, even if you didn't change where it was placed in terms of beats. Actually, it's not the notes themselves, it's the chords behind them or whatever that low sound is in the background choir or strings; the background that supports that second melody come too late, so it becomes dissonant. Like I said, that is mainly due to the fact that it the melody comes a beat too early.

Listen I'm not trying to be a jerk here... just voicing my opinion.

And pardon my vocabulary, I'm not familiar with scales and such, I'm pretty much taught in bits and pieces about music. It's mostly just my brother showing me some cool techniques in his remixes and me remembering and applying them in my own music.

"it has gone up a half step to C# minor? Yeah, cool stuff."

"Yeah, cool stuff."

" h, cool s"

"cool"

xD You might come off as a bit show-offy if you say stuff like that. However, I agree, that was one of the more pleasant changes.

[HyruleanTubist]

No worries, no offense is taken on this. Sorry for the show-offy bit, I didn't mean to, I was trying to explain what I was trying to do with the music, and offer a correction. Yeah, I guess it was a bit show-offy. Sorry.

As for the section, I don't think I'm gonna change it. I like it, and I think it fits fine. However, your opinion is also fine, and is welcome to be voiced.

[Edit] *Sigh* Grammar hates me some days.

[DrumUltimA]

In the beginning, before the bass synth comes in, I would have that delay go a little further. If I can hear where the delay cuts off, it compromises the effect. It sounds like you're doing a manual delay, just rewriting the notes at smaller velocities. I would do a few repetitions extra so that the fadeout is super smooth.

I'm actually a big fan of the choice of the octatonic scale, as I've said before. I don't think you should change it. I find it to be a nice harmonic climax of sorts, and also is a really clever way to disguise that key change. Neblix, I don't know what you're talking about with the beat too early bit, it sounds fine to me.

The updated drum writing sounds a lot better! However, the drums still sit pretty far back in the mix, and I'm really not a big fan at all of your snare drum. I think I can help you out with this, are you still in Baltimore? I'm coming back to school at some point this week, I can help you out. In the mean time, put a compressor over the snare and kick. Make the attack something small, between 2-10ms, and the release around 400ms or so. I still don't fully understand how compressors work, but I've had some good luck with that. Play with eqing the snare a bit too, figure out which frequencies help the snare, and which hurt it. You can also play with this using a multiband compressor as well, where you decide what frequencies get compressed. One snare drum can sound a million different ways.

Oh yeah, careful with panning. Extreme panning is great when there's a lot going on--but when there isn't, it can become a bit distracting. In the more sparse sections of your mix, keep the panning a little closer to center. Also, some synths seem to fade in and out pretty dramatically, probably because of whatever panning patch you're using (I have a surround patch that does that too, simulating the sound getting closer and further away). It's a cool effect, but not particularly helpful when you're trying to control the balance on your own. Try putting a compressor over that or changing the patch settings so that it doesn't mess with the volume too much.

I KIND of miss the metal sounds... but it still sounds good. Take em or leave em though, it doesn't do much to the track either way.

Neblix mentioned finding samples online... while I'm sure logic has some fantastic samples (and I'm hearing them already), it doesn't hurt to snoop around a bit. What you've got is really good, don't get me wrong. Here are some good resources to finding more stuff:

http://soundfonts.darkesword.com/ - coincidentally, neblix's brother's site. Lotta good soundfonts, really got me started. I still use many!

http://soundtempest.net/the-best-free-music-software/ a list compiled by zircon (remember jill goldin from school? opera singer? it's her husband) of various free stuff. I particularly recommend Yellow Tools from Independence free.

Also, http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=koreplayer - this wasn't on the above list, but should be. I use this a lot too. Free stuff is awesome, and it's all I use.

Keep up the good work, Ian! It's going well!

[Nabeel Ansari]

In the beginning, before the bass synth comes in, I would have that delay go a little further. If I can hear where the delay cuts off, it compromises the effect. It sounds like you're doing a manual delay, just rewriting the notes at smaller velocities. I would do a few repetitions extra so that the fadeout is super smooth.

I'm actually a big fan of the choice of the octatonic scale, as I've said before. I don't think you should change it. I find it to be a nice harmonic climax of sorts, and also is a really clever way to disguise that key change. Neblix, I don't know what you're talking about with the beat too early bit, it sounds fine to me.

The updated drum writing sounds a lot better! However, the drums still sit pretty far back in the mix, and I'm really not a big fan at all of your snare drum. I think I can help you out with this, are you still in Baltimore? I'm coming back to school at some point this week, I can help you out. In the mean time, put a compressor over the snare and kick. Make the attack something small, between 2-10ms, and the release around 400ms or so. I still don't fully understand how compressors work, but I've had some good luck with that. Play with eqing the snare a bit too, figure out which frequencies help the snare, and which hurt it. You can also play with this using a multiband compressor as well, where you decide what frequencies get compressed. One snare drum can sound a million different ways.

Oh yeah, careful with panning. Extreme panning is great when there's a lot going on--but when there isn't, it can become a bit distracting. In the more sparse sections of your mix, keep the panning a little closer to center. Also, some synths seem to fade in and out pretty dramatically, probably because of whatever panning patch you're using (I have a surround patch that does that too, simulating the sound getting closer and further away). It's a cool effect, but not particularly helpful when you're trying to control the balance on your own. Try putting a compressor over that or changing the patch settings so that it doesn't mess with the volume too much.

I KIND of miss the metal sounds... but it still sounds good. Take em or leave em though, it doesn't do much to the track either way.

Neblix mentioned finding samples online... while I'm sure logic has some fantastic samples (and I'm hearing them already), it doesn't hurt to snoop around a bit. What you've got is really good, don't get me wrong. Here are some good resources to finding more stuff:

http://soundfonts.darkesword.com/ - coincidentally, neblix's brother's site. Lotta good soundfonts, really got me started. I still use many!

http://soundtempest.net/the-best-free-music-software/ a list compiled by zircon (remember jill goldin from school? opera singer? it's her husband) of various free stuff. I particularly recommend Yellow Tools from Independence free.

Also, http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=koreplayer - this wasn't on the above list, but should be. I use this a lot too. Free stuff is awesome, and it's all I use.

Keep up the good work, Ian! It's going well!

What I mean by a beat too early is that the melody starts before the drum loop... uhm, loops.

And it's not like the notes that happen before the next measure starts are supposed to be before the next measures (like on sheet music where you have a few notes after the time sig/treble clef And then it tells you the chords in the next measures like an intro) I'm just saying it would sound a lot better if on the first beat of the measure. not like 70% into a measure

It catches you off guard and I kinda find it unpleasant.

[DrumUltimA]

What I mean by a beat too early is that the melody starts before the drum loop... uhm, loops.

And it's not like the notes that happen before the next measure starts are supposed to be before the next measures (like on sheet music where you have a few notes after the time sig/treble clef And then it tells you the chords in the next measures like an intro) I'm just saying it would sound a lot better if on the first beat of the measure. not like 70% into a measure

It catches you off guard and I kinda find it unpleasant.

I see. I wouldn't call it a problem, though. Treating those four notes as a pickup as opposed to a downbeat is a perfectly valid interperetive choice--whether you like it or not is your opinion, but it's not going to detract from the quality of work/his chances of getting this accepted.

[Nabeel Ansari]

I see. I wouldn't call it a problem, though. Treating those four notes as a pickup as opposed to a downbeat is a perfectly valid interperetive choice--whether you like it or not is your opinion, but it's not going to detract from the quality of work/his chances of getting this accepted.

But that's what I'm saying, they don't sound like a pickup at all. They sound randomly placed.

[DrumUltimA]

But that's what I'm saying, they don't sound like a pickup at all. They sound randomly placed.

I'm listening again and I don't really get where you're coming from. The lick starts on beat four of the measure, so there's nothing "random" about it. It's a quarter note pick up. Once again, whether you like it or not is your opinion. But it's not a musical mistake, Ian should not go out of his way to fix it unless he decides he doesn't like it either. It'll have no bearing on the judging process.

[HyruleanTubist]

Doug! I'm around, I've been here since mid-June. So just let me know when you can get back and we can fix up that snare. I can explain a compressor to you, if you like, even. My problem is, I know what it does, but don't have any idea what sounds good besides playing with the settings and using my ears. The kick and snare actually already have a compressor and some EQ on them, but you probably have a better idea what to do with them than I do.

My nice shiny Logic bundle should be here tomorrow (I was hoping today, but no luck there), and with it I'll be getting about half a ton of instruments and such to work with (literally, Apple says over 1000 instruments in this version) so I'll have much more to work with, but it also won't hurt to check out these third party plug-ins too. I'll take a look around for some different sounding synths and samples.

I had the same thought on the metal sounds, once I took them out, I missed them. It kind of feels like a hole is in the mix now that they're gone. I'll see if I can figure out a way to get them back in in some form. I did like them...

As for panning, extreme pannings don't bother me as much as it does most people it seems. I'll see what I can do to compromise though.

So yeah, let me know when you're here and available, I'm working all of Tuesday, and Thursday morning, but otherwise I'm pretty free.

[HyruleanTubist]

Updated slightly! The metal noises are back, and I think to stay. However, they don't dominate the intro like they used to. Speaking of the intro, I've now slowed it up and fine tuned it. It sounds like an intro now! Sorry Doug, but I haven't been able to find a better snare sound yet. Otherwise, I'm actually fairly satisfied with this. Any chance of it being accepted?

[Nabeel Ansari]

First of all your bitrate is too high. 192 is the highest bitrate. Also do something about the file size, highest file size is 6 MB, turning down the bitrate would help, if you don't mind a little quality degrading.

The metal sounds are a bit off rhythm sometimes, try putting them in rhythm.

Your intro is a bit long but I don't think the judges would take issue.

Don't go so quick xD You still need to fix your sounds. I know you're eager and if you want to submit no one' stopping you.

If it gets rejected, you'll have to work on it more and resubmit. You should focus more on getting it the first time. :tomatoface:

A 'nother line worthy of my sig.

[PROTO·DOME]

It sounds a bit like a Worms/Peggle track in places actually... Ending cut off a bit quick mind you, you should leave that last note to fade out or something- but it's not really a problem. By the sounds of things you've got this edition pretty fixed in your mind and it sounds pretty cool. I presonally like the snare sound, the kit and writing for it sounded pretty good actually. I thought the metal sounds (or whatever they are) were a tiny bit loud and also that some computery bleeps would've been perfect- but you really capture the Metroid feel with those sweeping runs, I liked that bit. The synth writing is also good.

I can't really talk about levels and stuff because I'm not using my headphones so maybe someone else can help you there. Apart from that- good luck. ^___^

[HyruleanTubist]

Ok, small changes this time. The levels should be fairly finalized now, and neblixsaber, I changed one of the synths. Just one, though, as I am quite fond of most of them. I did bring the metal noise down a bit, as suggested, as well as extended the ending out. I didn't realize it cut off so quick. I've also made sure the file meets OCReMix parameters for submission this time. Barring any huge criticisms, this might be the final version!

[HoboKa]

I love meandering, but the J's don't - but anyways, I think this has enough direction to be passable...er I think - I've never been YES'd so it's not like I can talk lol. I think that the bass and drums overpower the rest just a tad too much, bring em down a bit and sharpen up that mix - which is of course the "funnest" part of digital composing, right?