Sonic the Hedgehog 4

[q-pa]

My 2 cents:

I'm reminded of the many differences between the various Sonic 2 betas and the final game.

The so-called

is probably the most well-known of them.

Everything from the title screen to sprites [0:20] to level palettes [5:09] to even a few level design elements [6:29] were changed. Entire levels were scrapped.

True they were under ridiculous pressure & time constraints, but this shows you what can change between a beta and a final game. So I too am holding my breath and seeing what the final version of Sonic 4 will be.

[JackKieser]

honestly people like you should just forget the game was even announced

and lol at commenting on how the game will feel when you havent even fucking played it

Hey, I was one of those people creaming my pants during the first release teaser. I want this game to be good, but I'm not going to let retro nostalgia make me buy another piece of crap game. If it's good, I certainly won't complain. Also, yeah, you can comment on gameplay videos; there's a lot of subtle data in a video that allows you to do so.

I think commenting on how a game 'feels' by looking at a video is kind of the most retarded thing you can do

For instance, after playing Sonic games since I was six and having an intimate and intuitive knowledge of how the characters move on screen, the mind can compare the video footage to how it remembers Sonic moving in the past, allowing you to make a reasonable guess to how the physics are without holding the controller; it's not perfect, and it's not final, but the brain is smarter than you're giving it credit for. It's just like the Uncanny Valley effect: your brain can perceive tiny differences in motion and tell that they aren't what they should be.

Dude, calm down. It's a videogame.

Wait for the official releases before you start forming ideas and concerns. Wait until you play the game before you condemn it. You might be surprised - some of my favorite games are ones people hate (Ghoul Patrol for example).

I have to wonder how much of a game's failure is based on community naysaying instead of actually sitting down and playing through it.

If Sega wants people to hold off all judgment until the game is out, then they should stop releasing trailers. The point of that video was to make us feel something about the game (hopefully something good). It's SUPPOSED to manipulate your feelings BEFORE THE GAME IS RELEASED. So, yeah. They show me footage, and I'm going to judge that footage. Don't act like you haven't, too, because if it made you happy, or in any way pushed you to buy the game, then you have.

clearly jackkieser has experience making videogames

DigiPen Institute of Technology. 50% owned by Nintendo. Next door to Nintendo of America. Look it up. The professors wouldn't even let us turn in concept art without working prototypes.

[Cerrax]

I agree with JK that there is a noticeable difference between Sonic 4 and previous Sonics just from viewing that video, but I also agree with Strike. The game probably will feel different, but that doesn't mean it will be bad.

[Bleck]

For instance, after playing Sonic games since I was six and having an intimate and intuitive knowledge of how the characters move on screen, the mind can compare the video footage to how it remembers Sonic moving in the past

yeah but see the thing you're assuming is that the previous Sonic games are actually good

you're basically comparing a hypothetical poop to a previous poop

DigiPen Institute of Technology. 50% owned by Nintendo. Next door to Nintendo of America. Look it up. The professors wouldn't even let us turn in concept art without working prototypes.

clearly jackkieser has experience making videogames

[JackKieser]

yeah but see the thing you're assuming is that the previous Sonic games are actually good

you're basically comparing a hypothetical poop to a previous poop

Well, the whole point is that Sega is marketing this game as a return to form, a Sonic 4 that will continue the pedigree and gameplay of Sonic's 1-3. Sega is itself comparing Sonic 4 (hypothetical poop) to the past Sonic games (previous poop); the only difference is that you think the originals were crap, which makes Sega's point (and ultimately, any point based thereof) moot.

You're arguing something completely different/off-topic at that point.

[LuketheXjesse]

Believe me when I say arguing with this fellow is a lost cause, JK.

[DarkeSword]

yeah but see the thing you're assuming is that the previous Sonic games are actually good

you're basically comparing a hypothetical poop to a previous poop

Pretty sure that old sonic games (1-3&K) were quite good and not "poop."

[cobaltstarfire]

For instance, after playing Sonic games since I was six...

This is a worthless point, pretty much everyone here that has played a sonic game has been playing them since the first it's not like you doing it since you were six somehow magically makes you more inclined to tell if something is funky or not than anyone else posting.

I think I agree with what q-pa said, games can change alot between these little peeks and the release. You really shouldn't be getting your panties in a twist this soon.

[Bleck]

Sega is itself comparing Sonic 4 (hypothetical poop) to the past Sonic games (previous poop);

Sega is doing this because Sonic fans will literally buy anything

Pretty sure that old sonic games (1-3&K) were quite good and not "poop."

Sonic 1 and 2 are mediocre at best. If someone claims that Sonic 4 doesn't look good because the engine doesn't look similar to Sonic 2's - it's nonsense, basically.

[Triad Orion]

Sega is doing this because Sonic fans will literally buy anything

Sonic 1 and 2 are mediocre at best. If someone claims that Sonic 4 doesn't look good because the engine doesn't look similar to Sonic 2's - it's nonsense, basically.

Permit me to respectfully disagree on the "mediocre" part. Playing other games of the era (especially on the Genesis) compared to Sonic games makes it clear that for their time Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 were seminal platformers.

But I do agree on the second point. Sonic 4 is not Sonic 2, nor should it be. If they have a similar feel, that's all well and good. But it's 2010 now, not 1992. Things change, and if it's for the better, that's what ultimately matters.

[JackKieser]

This is a worthless point, pretty much everyone here that has played a sonic game has been playing them since the first it's not like you doing it since you were six somehow magically makes you more inclined to tell if something is funky or not than anyone else posting.

I think I agree with what q-pa said, games can change alot between these little peeks and the release. You really shouldn't be getting your panties in a twist this soon.

You do realize that the point of that wasn't to compare MY PARTICULAR ABILITIES in analysis to anyone else's here, right? You did read the entire post and get the overarching message, right?

The one about how the brain can decipher tiny bits of data in a video and be able to approximate physical responses from them? The point that one could approximate how the game will play based off of gameplay footage augmented by the (very important) prerequisite of thorough experience?

...right?

[Bleck]

You did read the entire post and get the overarching message, right?

you did read the part where I said making judgments on a video game you haven't played and hasn't been released is dumb right

right

[cobaltstarfire]

The point that one could approximate how the game will play based off of gameplay footage augmented by the (very important) prerequisite of thorough experience?

Your point is stupid, because you don't have anymore experience than anyone else here does.

Also, what Bleck said.

[JackKieser]

you did read the part where I said making judgments on a video game you haven't played and hasn't been released is dumb right

right

Again, the point of releasing trailers and teasers is to drum up support by making people positively judge your game before it's even released. That's the point; it's the marketing department's JOB to make people think the finished product is going to be good before it's even finished. With that comes the risk that people won't be positively influenced. You're hammering me for "making judgments on a video game haven't played and hasn't been released", but there are PAGES UPON PAGES of people doing that exact same thing... because that's the point. You don't like it? Might I suggest a cup of "GTFO of discussion threads"?

Your point is stupid, because you don't have anymore experience than anyone else here does.

Also, what Bleck said.

*sigh* Seriously? Really? It's almost 5 where I'm at; I don't have time to teach people how to read. Nowhere in any of my posts do I assert that I have more experience playing Sonic games than any other person in this thread. Re-read them. I don't do it. The closest I come is a possible inference that I have more experience than a random guy off of the street. The point of my posts is that if Joe Schmoe who never played classic Sonic saw that trailer, he'd think there was nothing off, but to someone who's actually played classic Sonic, you can tell that the physics are different... which is NOT what Sega says it's going for. Sega says their aim is a retro Sonic feel, and that's not what the trailer showed us. The trailer showed us exactly what many people are feared would happen: Sega would confuse "momentum-based speed" with "pure, unadulterated speed" and turn the game into something where all you need to do to win is hold down right and jump at the right time.

[SoloGamer]

Keep in mind we don't know when that video was taken or how much of the level is complete. For all we know, it's a really early build and the dude's been sitting on it for a while before releasing it. Whining that they're designing levels before the physics engine is perfected is pretty dumb. Would you rather have all the artists sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the programmers to finish their job?

[JackKieser]

Keep in mind we don't know when that video was taken or how much of the level is complete. For all we know, it's a really early build and the dude's been sitting on it for a while before releasing it. Whining that they're designing levels before the physics engine is perfected is pretty dumb. Would you rather have all the artists sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the programmers to finish their job?

Based off of previous experience... YES. A thousand times yes. Gameplay should always come first. Prototype everything first; the final physics test build shouldn't even have anthropomorphic hedgehogs in it, assuming they're doing it right.

That's not to say that the artists can't prototype for themselves... but it's retarded to build levels when you don't even know how far your main character can jump. The point is that artists/writers should be as far away from the programmers as possible until the gameplay elements are as close to final as possible; not only does it keep the design close to the original proposed game design document, but it discourages feature creep, which is a big reason projects get behind schedule.

[SoloGamer]

That's not to say that the artists can't prototype for themselves... but it's retarded to build levels when you don't even know how far your main character can jump.

That's why I said you don't even know how much of the level is completed. For all we know, they just tossed a couple random level elements to test out the physics engine. Why not use the assets they already have (near?) completed so they can test how it all looks at the same time?

[Strike911]

I WILL PULL THIS FORUM OVER!

[Red Shadow]

*sigh* Seriously? Really? It's almost 5 where I'm at; I don't have time to teach people how to read.

and WE dont have time for pretentious dicks

[Bleck]

Prototype everything first; the final physics test build shouldn't even have anthropomorphic hedgehogs in it, assuming they're doing it right.

yeah because it'll be great to have a physics engine with NO LEVELS TO TEST IT ON

ten charakakas

[JackKieser]

and WE dont have time for pretentious dicks

That's odd, because Bleck's had quite a few posts here, too.

@Bleck: Actually, you don't. You need flat terrain, a few platforms, a spherical player avatar, and a copy of the program running in a basic Windows construct. You don't need:

* a main menu

* music

* 3D models

* parallax scrolling

* particle effects

...should I continue?

[Nabeel Ansari]

That's odd, because Bleck's had quite a few posts here, too.

@Bleck: Actually, you don't. You need flat terrain, a few platforms, a spherical player avatar, and a copy of the program running in a basic Windows construct. You don't need:

* a main menu

* music

* 3D models

* parallax scrolling

* particle effects

...should I continue?

What if this is what the final physics engine is? Then your whole argument has no point, you've just become another fanboy who complains that Sonic isn't like what it was in the age of Sega Genesis. Just saying.

You say that Sega isn't doing what they're saying; so what? Just because they say something doesn't mean they have to mean it; it could probably be a publicity stunt. So what if they're lying? It's not false advertisement; they didn't release the game. They never said it would feel exactly like an old Sonic game, and the only things that were definite was the 2D side scroller aspect (and they haven't lied there) What are you going to do about it? Not buy the game? I hardly think it matters to Sega what you think of their physics engine; like I said before, it just makes you a whiny fanboy who thinks just because he knows the process of prototyping he's automatically right compared to a company that's made quite a few video games. :/

[SoloGamer]

You guys just don't understand. If only those artists, 3D modelers, and special effects guys would have pitched into the physics engine instead of doing their own thing, this game could have been saved.

[AMT]

They really should have just used Havoc and saved themselves the time.

[JackKieser]

What if this is what the final physics engine is? Then your whole argument has no point, you've just become another fanboy who complains that Sonic isn't like what it was in the age of Sega Genesis. Just saying.

Has no point? Again... discussion forum. Someone made a thread that boils down to "Sonic 4... discuss?", and so when someone discusses it, you whine? Also, I'm hardly a fanboy; when a company's product doesn't live up to hype or advertising, I talk about it. One of my most vocal and critical complaints about Mass Effect 2 is that Bioware, a company built around their RPGs, took all of the RPG out of ME2. Personally, I can't get behind a game that is touted as an RPG, but reduces the level cap by 30 and cuts the number of skills in half, simultaneously eradicating all inventory management.

You can pout all you want about the game not being released yet, but before the game is released is the only possible time that discussion could possibly have any effect on the game (as small a chance as that might be). If we're going to discuss anything, now is a much better time than later.

You say that Sega isn't doing what they're saying; so what? Just because they say something doesn't mean they have to mean it; it could probably be a publicity stunt. So what if they're lying? It's not false advertisement; they didn't release the game. They never said it would feel exactly like an old Sonic game, and the only things that were definite was the 2D side scroller aspect (and they haven't lied there) What are you going to do about it? Not buy the game? I hardly think it matters to Sega what you think of their physics engine; like I said before, it just makes you a whiny fanboy who thinks just because he knows the process of prototyping he's automatically right compared to a company that's made quite a few video games. :/

A ) If it's a publicity stunt, people should wake up to it before they waste 60$ on it and reinforce the notion that Sega's doing the right thing. I think that's the big success of the Wii, for instance: hardcore ceasing to buy games in any significant way to prove a point that half-assing your early games only destroys your core demographic. Hopefully, Nintendo + 3rd parties will figure that out next generation because we've hit their sales so hard.

B ) I don't care if some Sega exec sheds a tear because I disapprove of their engine, and it surprises me that you'd assume I would. Why? Because I discuss things on a discussion forum? (It really does surprise me that I'm being b*tched at for that, btw) I disagree, and I hope that someone sees what I see, is more critical of the final product, and judges that final product on its true merits, rather than "Omg, Sonic! They said it'd be like the old ones!!1", and thus giving Sega another free pass and a free 60$. So I take the realist approach. Bite me.

C ) Quite a few games? You mean quite a few terrible games that only sell well because of the ignorant masses, right? If anything, Sega's repertoire of games hurts your argument. Ignoring the obviously disingenuous "fanboy" comment, Sega hasn't proven they could make a well designed and implemented game in 10 years. Their entire goal is to change that stigma with Sonic 4. They have a lot riding on this. We should be critical, especially early on, when they still have a hope of delaying the game and making changes where necessary.

You guys just don't understand. If only those artists, 3D modelers, and special effects guys would have pitched into the physics engine instead of doing their own thing, this game could have been saved.

Oh, christ no. Artists should have no business going anywhere near a physics engine. It seems (again) that you haven't read properly, because the artists should do their own thing on their own side of the development office until the time is right to present their work to the programmers for implementation. Until then, they should be far, far away from the programmers, perfecting character design, story, and environmentals. The look of a game can be created without an engine, just like the engine of a game can be tested without visuals.

EDIT: I've lurked here enough to know that was sarcasm. It still needed to be addressed, though...