OCR Fit club (2010 edition)

[Vivi22]

Prescribed was 135 lbs, so I was a fair bit under that. They keep moving me up with any WOD that includes presses or jerks or the like though. Since I got almost 14 rounds in death by push press I got to do Fran last night with 85lbs. so I'm only ten pounds off of the RX'd weight for that. Subbed jumping pullups for normal pullups and still managed to do it in 11:40. As a point of comparison, I tried a scaled Fran with 65lb thrusters and high pulls instead of pullups back in September (I lacked the strength for the proper weight and a pullup bar), and was still only about a minute faster then. That was with a month and a half of training behind me at the time.

And I'll agree that Tony and Jodi are beastly, but I'd say that about any 110lb woman who can deadlift 3x body weight. Can't say enough about what a great couple of people and trainers they are.

[Ferret]

I don't have any weight issues, but I would like to build a little muscle and tone overall (not going for the bodybuilder physique).

Currently I have no set program regarding exercise (aside from a brisk walk every day and irregular usage of freeweights) and my diet consists mainly of sandwiches, mostly-healthy foods and plenty of rest.

Any tips?

[Penfold]

Prescribed was 135 lbs, so I was a fair bit under that. They keep moving me up with any WOD that includes presses or jerks or the like though. Since I got almost 14 rounds in death by push press I got to do Fran last night with 85lbs. so I'm only ten pounds off of the RX'd weight for that. Subbed jumping pullups for normal pullups and still managed to do it in 11:40. As a point of comparison, I tried a scaled Fran with 65lb thrusters and high pulls instead of pullups back in September (I lacked the strength for the proper weight and a pullup bar), and was still only about a minute faster then. That was with a month and a half of training behind me at the time.

And I'll agree that Tony and Jodi are beastly, but I'd say that about any 110lb woman who can deadlift 3x body weight. Can't say enough about what a great couple of people and trainers they are.

Cool, I might try that wod sometime after sectionals, unless I can add it in this weekend.

Speaking of which, did you see any of the Midwest sectional videos? That top guy is really something, completing that "Airforce WOD" in sub-4 minutes and getting damn near 50 155lb clean and jerks in 5 min! If you didn't see the vids, I'd recommend checking them out at the Games '10 site...inspirational haha.

Good job with Fran! It's such a brutal workout.

[Vivi22]

I don't have any weight issues, but I would like to build a little muscle and tone overall (not going for the bodybuilder physique).

Currently I have no set program regarding exercise (aside from a brisk walk every day and irregular usage of freeweights) and my diet consists mainly of sandwiches, mostly-healthy foods and plenty of rest.

Any tips?

Not to sound like a broken record, but you might want to check out CrossFit: www.crossfit.com

Plenty of exercise demos and daily workouts that you can follow. Check out the FAQ for exercise substitutions, and there's a site that posts scaled versions of the workouts for different athletic abilities as well. Best advice I can give is that if you start CrossFit, start of slow and take it easy for a bit, while getting plenty of rest. CrossFit isn't a program you want to jump right into full bore.

And Penfold, I just watched those videos yesterday. Absolutely insane. The top guy (I'm blanking on his name at the moment) is looking like someone to watch right now. Crazy performance.

[Gibbo]

I don't have any weight issues, but I would like to build a little muscle and tone overall (not going for the bodybuilder physique).

Currently I have no set program regarding exercise (aside from a brisk walk every day and irregular usage of freeweights) and my diet consists mainly of sandwiches, mostly-healthy foods and plenty of rest.

Any tips?

You won't end up looking like a bodybuilder, unless you're secretly spiking test and Dbol.

Google for 5x5 or Starting Strength to get some bulk on that skinny ass of yours. Ignore everyone telling you to go to crossfit.

[Vivi22]

Google for 5x5 or Starting Strength to get some bulk on that skinny ass of yours. Ignore everyone telling you to go to crossfit.

Both of those will work as well. I'm actually somewhat surprised I forgot about Starting Strength.But for that matter, his stated goals are to build some muscle and tone. CrossFit will do that as well, and it will improve his fitness in more areas than just strength. So is there any particular reason you're against him trying CrossFit?

[Kizyr]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but... What do you suggest in the way of a regular exercise routine (e.g., trying to get 20-30 minutes of elevated heart rate about three times aweek) for someone who hates going to a gym?

The best suggestion I've heard so far is jogging, which is something that I think I could actually get into and enjoy enough to actually stick to it. Gyms... I've always felt uncomfortable with them, and I know I'd find every excuse not to go.

Besides that, my diet is fine, and while I don't exercise regularly, I'm at least not sedentary (I have to walk an average of 1-2 miles a day, just in the course of going to work or classes). I just got kind of a wake-up call the other day that emphasized the fact that, well, I need to do a little more. KF

[Penfold]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but... What do you suggest in the way of a regular exercise routine (e.g., trying to get 20-30 minutes of elevated heart rate about three times aweek) for someone who hates going to a gym?

The best suggestion I've heard so far is jogging, which is something that I think I could actually get into and enjoy enough to actually stick to it. Gyms... I've always felt uncomfortable with them, and I know I'd find every excuse not to go.

Besides that, my diet is fine, and while I don't exercise regularly, I'm at least not sedentary (I have to walk an average of 1-2 miles a day, just in the course of going to work or classes). I just got kind of a wake-up call the other day that emphasized the fact that, well, I need to do a little more. KF

I would start by pointing out that any routine will lose its effectiveness over time, so if your goal is increasing your fitness you want to keep it as mixed up as possible. I dunno what you don't like about gyms specifically, but my experience tells me people tend to equate gyms with bodybuilding regimes and it's often that style of working out that turns people off to going. It can also be due to an unfamiliarity with movements/exercises, but you see this same lack of knowledge in at least 90% of folks at your "standard" gym: 1/4 squats, power cleans without a semblance of rack positon, partial rep pullups, rounded back deadlifts, and the list goes on. If it's because of these reasons, take heart in knowing that literally only a small handful of people in a "standard" gym setting understand the movements they're doing/trying to do - outside of Crossfitters, I've personally only known Olympic lifters or Powerlifters to "get it."

No matter where you work out, if you goal is to increase your fitness, choose to do functional movements (some of which I will outline below). These movements, compared to sitting down on some machine and counting to 10 reps without having an impact on your midline, have a propensity to increase your fitness and are characterized as multi-jointed, compound, natural movements and stress the midline stability. Crossfit has a vast collection of videos which outline form and form issues, learning queues, and other educational material on their site, which is a good place to learn these: http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html. What's especially nice about Crossfit's explanations are the attention to range of motion, a vital component to performing any movement properly.

My recommendation is to start by learning these movements, and afterward doing them with intesity. I strongly recommend Crossfit, but doing functional movements any way will be better than not doing them. Going to a Crossfit gym is probably the fastest and best way to learn the movements and be introduced to intesity (literally any CF trainer I've met is fantastic), but it's not cheap. Myself and others I know learned through watching the videos, doing, and talking to other CFers or specialists who know the movement.

If you intend to not workout at a gym but rather outsite, there's plenty of bodyweight exercises you can do: pushups, jumping pullups/strict pullups/kipping pullups, situps, squats, dips, burpees, muscle-ups, sprinting, jumping/plyometrics, jumprope, etc. Investing in a kettlebell will afford you some good lifting options: swings, snatches, front/overhead squats, cleans, presses/jerks, deadlift/sumo deadlift highpull, weighted pullups/dips, etc. The kettlebell may not as diverse as access to an Olympic barbell set, but it's significantly more moble and provides modes to tax your fitness outside of bodyweight.

On an unrelated note, tomorrow's sectionals. Gonna be a ton of fun!

[Arcana]

Watching the Olympics always makes me want to go out and do various athletic feats. Now I'm vaguely interested in seeing if there's either a curling club or an ice skating lesson set out there.

(Or, I could just stick with wall climbing).

[Gibbo]

Both of those will work as well. I'm actually somewhat surprised I forgot about Starting Strength.But for that matter, his stated goals are to build some muscle and tone. CrossFit will do that as well, and it will improve his fitness in more areas than just strength. So is there any particular reason you're against him trying CrossFit?

Crossfit is 1) overpriced 2) overcomplicated when someone has a history of being a excessively skinny and 3) not really optimized for anything.

Combining a lifting regimen with another pure sport (running, cycling) will result in more muscle and better running (or whatever) than doing crossfit will, provided you're capable of eating enough to support it.

[Vivi22]

Crossfit is 1) overpriced

How so? I do go to an affiliate and although I pay more than I would for a regular membership to any other gym, I also get instruction and/or form correction from the trainers every time I go. On top of that, I get personalized strength training, not to even mention the motivation of doing CrossFit with other people and trainers who support and encourage you to improve. More expensive than another gym? Sure. Overpriced? I wouldn't say that.

Even then, there's no reason a person can't follow the programming on the CrossFit main site on their own. All the information is out there, and plenty of people see tremendous results on their own just by following the WODs on crossfit.com. Even better would be to book some appointments with a trainer to learn the movements properly and the progressions and get some form correction, then go off on your own, but if that's not possible, you can figure it out on your own as long as you're smart about it.

2) overcomplicated when someone has a history of being a excessively skinny

I don't see how it's over complicated to be honest. It's certainly no more complicated than any other program. The most complicated part is learning the movements properly so you don't hurt yourself but that's true of any program that actually lays it all out for you. CrossFit actually couldn't get much simpler since the programming is available on the site for free like I said.

Now if your problem is with someone gaining weight when they have trouble with it, the only real solution is to eat enough to support weight gain and lift heavy. CrossFit will get you there eventually if you do that, even if it isn't quite as fast as a program that focuses solely on strength and weight gain. Unless of course you're just looking for extreme hypertrophy of the muscles, which is a pretty useless goal from a fitness perspective as far as I'm concerned. I won't knock the people who like to look like a body builder or actually be a body builder, but that kind of training has little value for most people.

3) not really optimized for anything.

So what? Most people don't need training optimized for one purpose since most people don't make their living playing one sport, or power lifting, or any other instance where very specified training is necessary to reach an elite level. Regardless, your average person will reach a level of overall fitness far greater than they likely thought possible if they follow CrossFit. If someone's goal is just to be as strong as they possibly can be in powerlifting movements then they can follow a more structured powerlifting program, but most people don't care about that and wouldn't want to just be strong at the expense of being able to run five miles or last through a hockey game with the boys anyway. Saying CrossFit isn't optimized is only a valid criticism if someone's goals require optimization in one or two disciplines.

Combining a lifting regimen with another pure sport (running, cycling) will result in more muscle and better running (or whatever) than doing crossfit will, provided you're capable of eating enough to support it.

Agreed sort of. You might be stronger and maybe a better runner, but you'll also be worse in a lot of other fitness areas that CrossFit trains on a regular basis. It depends on your goals. If all you want is to be able to squat heavy and run five miles then go ahead and just squat and run five miles. If you want to be able to lift heavy, and run or do just about anything without gassing though, you might want to give CrossFit a try.

And just for the record on the running thing, there are people who have essentially run Ultra-marathons after doing nothing but CrossFit or CrossFit Endurance training. So maybe just training running will make you a better runner, but with some CrossFitters showing 80+ miles in a day is possible without ever running more than 5k in training, while maintaining the muscle mass to lift heavy, it's hard not to see value in the training.

[SoulinEther]

itt i sense more fanboyism than exercising!

been keeping at my routine, and I can attest to progress in strength - which carries over to basically every other aspect of my life. I've thrown in a little swimming to keep things interesting (and to slaughter my legs while sparing my back).

[Geoffrey Taucer]

So I've been working on a couple of videos of some of my favorite no-equipment-required exercises. My computer is currently kaput, but once I get it fixed I'll hopefully be able to post those videos fairly soon.

[Kizyr]

I dunno what you don't like about gyms specifically, but my experience tells me people tend to equate gyms with bodybuilding regimes and it's often that style of working out that turns people off to going. It can also be due to an unfamiliarity with movements/exercises, but you see this same lack of knowledge in at least 90% of folks at your "standard" gym:

The main reason that folks tend to dislike gyms isn't that association, so much as the fact that there are other people there, and many folks feel as if they're being watched/judged while they're at the gym. (The former is what contributes most to my own discomfort with gyms; it feels like working out in a public restroom for me.) It's not so much the connection with a bodybuilding regime (that is something that I think contributes to many folks' aversion to weightlifting specifically, though).

Anyway, thanks for your other advice. I figured it may be useful to hear other reasons beyond what you've mentioned for folks' dislike regarding gyms. KF

[Ferret]

Crossfit is 1) overpriced 2) overcomplicated when someone has a history of being a excessively skinny and 3) not really optimized for anything.

Combining a lifting regimen with another pure sport (running, cycling) will result in more muscle and better running (or whatever) than doing crossfit will, provided you're capable of eating enough to support it.

Yeah, I don't eat that much (and I'd rather avoid paying for something I don't have room for, as regards exercise equipment). Which is to say I do eat a fair bit, but it's not like all at the same time.

[Souliarc]

I've worked out for several years, but I want to get opinions on muscle soreness. Some people say it's okay to workout if your muscles are still sore as you need to stick to your schedule, others say to not to as your muscles need to heal.

I guess you can always do cardio even if your muscles are sore, achieving that much needed elevated heart rate to stay healthy.

Peeps?

[Gibbo]

How so? I do go to an affiliate and although I pay more than I would for a regular membership to any other gym, I also get instruction and/or form correction from the trainers every time I go. On top of that, I get personalized strength training, not to even mention the motivation of doing CrossFit with other people and trainers who support and encourage you to improve. More expensive than another gym? Sure. Overpriced? I wouldn't say that.

I pay 24$CAD/month for access to 6 gyms with weight rooms, 4 with pools, and a variety of other gear, plus access to people that know what they're talking about. I've seen people pay upwards of 85$USD/Month for crossfit. That's 3x the cost monthly. Even rounding up, that's 300$ a year for mine, and rounding down to 80$mo makes crossfit 960/year. A difference of 660$ a year is, depending on eating habits, 3-4 months of good clean food, without even pinching pennies. Especially at a low level, what you're eating is inifinately more important than what you're doing, as any muscle stimulation gets the job done.

And just for the record on the running thing, there are people who have essentially run Ultra-marathons after doing nothing but CrossFit or CrossFit Endurance training. So maybe just training running will make you a better runner, but with some CrossFitters showing 80+ miles in a day is possible without ever running more than 5k in training, while maintaining the muscle mass to lift heavy, it's hard not to see value in the training.

If they say they finish an ultra without ever doing anything more than crossfit, they're lying. Either about finishing, or about not training. Or by "some" do you mean maybe 3 people in the history of crossfit.

Complication/ ->

Now if your problem is with someone gaining weight when they have trouble with it, the only real solution is to eat enough to support weight gain and lift heavy. CrossFit will get you there eventually if you do that, even if it isn't quite as fast as a program that focuses solely on strength and weight gain. Unless of course you're just looking for extreme hypertrophy of the muscles, which is a pretty useless goal from a fitness perspective as far as I'm concerned. I won't knock the people who like to look like a body builder or actually be a body builder, but that kind of training has little value for most people.

What do all of the top beginner programs have in common? Extreme Simplicity combined with high large muscle group hypertrophy. 5x5 and SS very simple. WSfSB has a bit more in it. It's the pursuit of specific musclegroups and single muscle excersizes that start to really cut down on the effort:reward ratio.

I've worked out for several years, but I want to get opinions on muscle soreness. Some people say it's okay to workout if your muscles are still sore as you need to stick to your schedule, others say to not to as your muscles need to heal.

I guess you can always do cardio even if your muscles are sore, achieving that much needed elevated heart rate to stay healthy.

Peeps?

If it's pain, don't do anything. If you're just stiff/a bit sore, then go for it. The soreness will work itself out. Start lighter if you're really really sore to help work it out, then move up.

Although if you're sore to the point of random muscle failures (I've been there), then it's probably dangerous and you should give it some time.

On a side note, I had my first pure bike race this weekend. Came in 2nd of 50. I haven't looked at my full data yet, but I spent 1.5 hours above Zone 3.5, a good deal of zone 4, and a couple very painful trips up to zone 5.5 .

Ferret: Eat more. Add in cheap things like Brown rice and Lentils. Which are tasty with a little chili sauce anyhow, and very easy to make. Eventually you'll get used to eating more and start gaining size.

itt i sense more fanboyism than exercising!

been keeping at my routine, and I can attest to progress in strength - which carries over to basically every other aspect of my life. I've thrown in a little swimming to keep things interesting (and to slaughter my legs while sparing my back).

Missed that the first time through. How the hell are you swimming that is slaughtering your legs and sparing your back? That's completely the opposite of what should be happening. Full leg kick from the glutes is most of the leg activation involved (except for butterfly I think it is..), which gives the most power while maintaing form. If your back doesn't get a workout while swimming, you should really rethink how you're swimming.

[SoulinEther]

Missed that the first time through. How the hell are you swimming that is slaughtering your legs and sparing your back? That's completely the opposite of what should be happening. Full leg kick from the glutes is most of the leg activation involved (except for butterfly I think it is..), which gives the most power while maintaing form. If your back doesn't get a workout while swimming, you should really rethink how you're swimming.

i'm actually taking a class on learning how to swim (I suck), and.. you're right, it's hurting my back now.

[Souliarc]

Although if you're sore to the point of random muscle failures (I've been there), then it's probably dangerous and you should give it some time.

:D Me too. Like trying to walk down stairs and then the leg all the weight is on just goes out. That soreness is beyond what I'm talking about, but it's still funny

[Brandon Strader]

Muscle failure is fun. You think you can lift that weight but your arm is like "LOL I'M TIRED"

I'm starting a new diet today, but I figure it'll probably get murdered by Final Fantasy 13 tomorrow. That's the kind of game you want to order a pizza for. But we'll see. The specifics of the diet, it's going to be a BUTTLOAD (or should I say boatload... slightly less disgusting...) of water and one or two granola bars, roughly 100 - 200 calories. Why so extreme? Because I didn't lose any weight at all on my last diet and the only way to really eat less is to eat next to nothing. So wish me luck. I'll be taking ibuprofens too but I don't think they have a calorie amount, heh.

Also still going to the gym, I'm lifting heavier weights now.

Hmm.. instead of saying a buttload of water, I should have said a tubgirl of water.. maybe... not.

[Gibbo]

You realize that by doing that, your body will switch into starvation mode, your base metabolic rate will drop, you'll be lethargic/asleep most of the time, any muscle activity will cause catabolization, and when you switch back to a non stupid diet you'll just balloon up?

[Arcana]

For those lazy workout types:

I bought a resistance band and a skipping rope the other week. I haven't really used them that often, but I find that if I'm preparing dinner or if I'm waiting for something to download, I'll grab the band and do arm lifts or something like that, or I'll do a minute of skipping rope while watching the news. It's hardly a serious workout but it gets me off of the chair and moving.

I own some dumbbells too but I find that the resistance band is more fun to use because it allows you to do a larger variety of exercises.

So, for me, keeping stuff like this around in your house actually does improve the chances that you'll occasionally use it for a lazy workout.

[The Derrit]

Muscle failure is fun. You think you can lift that weight but your arm is like "LOL I'M TIRED"

I'm starting a new diet today, but I figure it'll probably get murdered by Final Fantasy 13 tomorrow. That's the kind of game you want to order a pizza for. But we'll see. The specifics of the diet, it's going to be a BUTTLOAD (or should I say boatload... slightly less disgusting...) of water and one or two granola bars, roughly 100 - 200 calories. Why so extreme? Because I didn't lose any weight at all on my last diet and the only way to really eat less is to eat next to nothing. So wish me luck. I'll be taking ibuprofens too but I don't think they have a calorie amount, heh.

Also still going to the gym, I'm lifting heavier weights now.

Hmm.. instead of saying a buttload of water, I should have said a tubgirl of water.. maybe... not.

going to the gym and lifting heavier weights won't help you all that much at a weight loss stage. it is very plausible to be heavier than you would like and strong, so to start in a weight-loss program cardio, like ellipticals etc. will do much more for you.

i'm not saying drop the weights, hardly, but cardio would most likely serve you better

[Geoffrey Taucer]

For those lazy workout types:

I bought a resistance band and a skipping rope the other week. I haven't really used them that often, but I find that if I'm preparing dinner or if I'm waiting for something to download, I'll grab the band and do arm lifts or something like that, or I'll do a minute of skipping rope while watching the news. It's hardly a serious workout but it gets me off of the chair and moving.

I own some dumbbells too but I find that the resistance band is more fun to use because it allows you to do a larger variety of exercises.

So, for me, keeping stuff like this around in your house actually does improve the chances that you'll occasionally use it for a lazy workout.

Agreed absolutely. It's an excellent idea to keep something available around the house and just do a bit here and a bit there whenever you have a second. It may not be as efficient as a dedicated workout, but if you're having trouble motivating yourself, it works wonders.

Say, install a pull-up bar and do a few pull-ups every time you walk through that doorway. Do a few push-ups while you're waiting for water to boil. Feels like nothing, doesn't require any substantial change to your daily routine, but it gets you started and gets you regularly exercising.

This won't do much if you're already in good shape and are looking to BUILD MASSIVE MUSKLES OMG but if you're just starting and looking for something that isn't going to be a hassle, this is a great way to do it.

[Penfold]

I pay 24$CAD/month for access to 6 gyms with weight rooms, 4 with pools, and a variety of other gear, plus access to people that know what they're talking about. I've seen people pay upwards of 85$USD/Month for crossfit. That's 3x the cost monthly. Even rounding up, that's 300$ a year for mine, and rounding down to 80$mo makes crossfit 960/year. A difference of 660$ a year is, depending on eating habits, 3-4 months of good clean food, without even pinching pennies. Especially at a low level, what you're eating is inifinately more important than what you're doing, as any muscle stimulation gets the job done.

I think what he was getting at is that joining a CF Affiliate is merely one way to do Crossfit. Just like someone who does powerlifting or Oly lifting can train their sport in a standard gym, so can Crossfitters - maybe not ideal, but it's done. A powerlifter doesn't have to work out at Westside Barbell, and a Crossfitter doesn't have to work out at an Affiliate. A lot of people who follow crossfit.com or similar protocols do it at a standard gym, or even at home (the "garage gym").

If they say they finish an ultra without ever doing anything more than crossfit, they're lying. Either about finishing, or about not training. Or by "some" do you mean maybe 3 people in the history of crossfit.

The example that I believe he's referencing is Greg Amundson, doing something around 80 miles in 24 hours, and from the time he decided to run it he never ran more than a total of 2 miles in a workout and did no additional running at all. Google "Greg Amundson ultra marathon" for relevant results if you want further information. Vivi22 also did not claim that he finished (rightfully so), but while there certainly are examples of people who have, there's a necessary qualifier - what is "only Crossfit"?

http://www.crossfitendurance.com/ - a Crossfit affiliate that has created supplementary WODs which, while sport-specific, defy traditional notions of training for endurance sports. One could very rightfully argue that following the supplementary Crossfit Endurance protocol in addition to another CF protocol is still only doing Crossfit, yet there are endurance athletes who exclusively train this way for their sport. Doing a quick google search ("Brian MacKenzie Crossfit" [brian is the man who started CFE]) yielded several results you might find interesting if you want to learn more about this protocol, for example http://www.gotrimax.com/TriMaxBmac.htm.

Part of my point is that there is no "one," definitive Crossfit. Another example is http://www.crossfitfootball.com/, run by NFL free agent John Welbourn not long after he started in Crossfit, wanting something to fit the needs of contact sport athletes. For those interested in getting bigger, stronger, and more powerful CF Football (especially with the combo of GOMAD plus an otherwise clean [preferably paleo] diet) will do the job, as well as increase your GPP (not to the extend other CF protocols might, as what they do is more specialized). More information in the site's FAQ.

What do all of the top beginner programs have in common? Extreme Simplicity combined with high large muscle group hypertrophy. 5x5 and SS very simple. WSfSB has a bit more in it. It's the pursuit of specific musclegroups and single muscle excersizes that start to really cut down on the effort:reward ratio.

Absolutely agree that when isolation is practiced, results go by the wayside. I'm sensing from this comment as well as some of your previous comments that maybe the difference in our viewpoints is rather outlook on GPP, and by extension our fitness or exercise goals.

On a side note, I had my first pure bike race this weekend. Came in 2nd of 50. I haven't looked at my full data yet, but I spent 1.5 hours above Zone 3.5, a good deal of zone 4, and a couple very painful trips up to zone 5.5 .

I did endurance cycling prior to starting CF, and am still partial to two wheels. I'd be interested in hearing the details on the race.