*NO* Xenogears 'Child of the Stars' *RECALL*

[Protricity]

ReMix: http://www.ocremix.org/detailmix.php?mixid=OCR01213

ReView thread: http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1009901#1009901

RECALL VOTE GUIDELINES:

Please don't vote yes or no again regarding whether you LIKE the mix here, or think it should be removed due to sonic quality or other unrelated issues; the sole criteria we're evaluating is whether it's enough of an arrangement to work with our standards or whether we let something through that we probably shouldn't have.

Some of the judges feel that this song should not have made it onto the site. So we will do a recall vote in hopes that it may be subjected to the same scrutiny as every other borderline submission. As usual, it is solely up to dave on what to do with this thread.

Please Vote YES or NO.

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So basically, I would not have passed this as it is ridiculously close to the original. Allowing these kinds of songs on the site basically opens the door for midirippers, and other such people who generally do not want to contribute originality and would rather take credit for the work of others. This is not saying that the author is any of these. Given, there is a little variation in this song, but its so minimal, short, and ill conceived that it hardly matters.

Other problems include ridiculously high amp, high note bass that makes the song very anoying to listen to, fade out ending, campy rnb loop that does not change, overall lack of progression and activity.

The chant of 'Lets not mess with what is already good' is not very convincing or justifying, and does not change my mind on what I consider a subpar remix.

NO

[Vig]

I agree with prot. The mix certainly sounds fine, the soundquality, etc. all sounds alright, but this mix is too close to the original.

drums and literally 10 seconds of a piano solo is not enough in my book.

on top of that, the mix doesnt go anywhere, it never escalates, and there's a lame fade-out ending after two and a half minutes.

were it on the panel, i would have given it a

NO

[Digital Coma]

It's the same exact song with slightly better instrument samples and some cliché R&B percussion thrown over the top of it. That right there sums this song up quite well.

I don't like screwing with peoples work too much if it's already beautiful as I've pretty much made it a policy not to dwarf the original intent music I arrange. Instead, I enjoy molding arrangements to fit what I feel. That, of course, being good example of how I imagined the composers original intent would be expressed to the listener while still adding my own artistic touches to satisfy myself.

in short, I like pretty, shiny things and don't like it when people jump down your throat for not having utterly destroyed it like a good portion of other "artists" do when they "remix" music.

The ideals of rearranging videogame music at its most general are not to, even if we could, "dwarf" the original compositions, but to creatively offer a compelling interpretation that honors them, regardless of artistic intent. Objectively speaking, this remix does not. It is not different enough from the original so as to illustrate the modifications made, as encouraged by this site's FAQ. And while a FEW new chords, transitions, and bridges - minor building block arrangement - may be enough of an artistic touch to satisfy Kaijin, this mix is otherwise literally the original Xenogears song with a drumloop, notwithstanding excessive bass levels and lack of development.

It's Kaijin's intention whether or not to "screw with peoples' work", but he should know that such an attitude is incompatible with the ideals and policies of OCR, and a submission created with this attitude would and should receive a NO on the panel.

[danny B]

This post is from the review board of the song.

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One thing i'll never understand is the reverance for Kaijin's mixes here on OCR. I was under the impression that, according to the faq, a "ReMix" consists of sufficient rearragement to constitute something more than a simple upgrade to sample quality. True, there are very basic, minor additions in this piece, but nothing that would really take anyone with 2 months of music synthesis experience much effort to create.

It's not a bad thing that Kaijin chooses to stick (very) close to originals when remixing, the Terra mix and the Sonic 2 mix case in point. There are uses for such tracks, just not on OCR, as far as I understand the policy. I hope this post doesn't come off as an attack, as it isn't meant to be.

It's 1). A concise review of a concise arrangement, one that isn't worthy of an in-depth review, because of the close proximity to the original.

And 2). A respectful questioning of a mix that was directly posted, regardless of what seems to me as glaring submission violations. Then again, I'm still a relative judge n00b, and my grasp on policy may still be whack-diggity.

Again I reiterate, I am not attacking or demeaning the musical integrity of Kaijin. The track is well done and sounds just fine, it's just the fact that I have rejected many songs with the same or better sound quality based on lack of creative arrangement. I think that saying to stray too far from the original would "pervert" or "destroy" the original's musical intention is a cop-out, plain and simple.

And again for clarity, I do not control this site, nor do I wish to impose my wishes upon the submission guidelines. But it seems to me that Kaijin's work as a whole does not really meet with the fundamental purpose of the site, to rearrange music with a personal touch and give it a new spin, as to at least differentiate it from the original.

I would have also had to vote NO.

Respectfully,

-Daniel

[DarkeSword]

Had I not listened to the original song of this piece, I might have voted YES. It certainly is pleasant to listen to, and I do like some of the more subtle things going on. However, when compared with the original, it's clear that this is more of a cover than a remix. I went back and forth with the remix and the original PSF of the song from the game and there was no question in my mind that very little arrangement went into this song.

NO

[djpretzel]

in short, I like pretty, shiny things and don't like it when people jump down your throat for not having utterly destroyed it like a good portion of other "artists" do when they "remix" music.

The ideals of rearranging videogame music at its most general are not to, even if we could, "dwarf" the original compositions, but to creatively offer a compelling interpretation that honors them, regardless of artistic intent.

But he prefaced that quote with the following:

you know, as much as I would want to agree with you on that, I would also be able to point out that there is several different chords, a piano solo with complex progressions, added notes here and there, a new solo, and counterpart for the second bridge, etc. etc.

Everyone's saying they compared w/ the original - are these claims just bogus? Or are they legit and simply still not enough? This was the more important part of his own response to comments that the mix was lacking arrangement. Is anyone up to refuting them specifically, or better yet, contacting him and getting more details?

Removing a mix that was direct posted and has been on the site awhile isn't out of the question, but it does tend to (potentially & justifiably) irk the ReMixer in question, so I'd prefer we get some direct responses to his own defense. Anyone?

[Digital Coma]

Legit and not enough. I referred to it as minor building block arrangement. My argument is that those additions aren't enough to call a rearrangement.

[Protricity]

Everyone's saying they compared w/ the original - are these claims just bogus? Or are they legit and simply still not enough? This was the more important part of his own response to comments that the mix was lacking arrangement. Is anyone up to refuting them specifically, or better yet, contacting him and getting more details?

Firstly, no one denied that there was variation in the song, but everyone agrees its not nearly enough.

Secondly, it doesn't much matter what the artist thinks.

Thirdly, have you heard the original? It would probably help you understand our points.

[Liontamer]

http://www.tzone.org/~llin/psf/packs2/Xenogears_psf.rar - 207 "Gathering Stars in the Night Sky"

Looks like I'm caught in a tight spot here. I sincerely believe this could have been riskier/more varied up without Kaijin sacrificing his more straightforward style or the gentle feel, but overall I thought the flow was relaxing and quality.

While I don't think it couldn't have taken Tim that long to produce a short piece like this, I really liked all of the changes he made, with the intro, the gentle bass pad and acoustic guitar support underneath the melody, and the restyled chorus section done via the piano. Other judges didn't feel that these variations amounted to much overall, and I would have liked more myself, but that doesn't negate that they were made, even if they weren't dramatically different changes. The R&B beat was cheesy, but yeah, that's how it's supposed to be. I had 0 problem with the bass notes being too high, or any production-related problems, and harping about a fadeout ending is something Prot would typically do. There's nothing criminal about a fadeout.

My problem was with the main melody. The fact that it was near-verbatim isn't the real point, since other aspects of the song were changed in what I at least felt was a satisfactory way. What really held me back on this was the fact that coming out of the chorus into the second rendition of the melody from 1:19-1:59, and the third from 2:29 to the end, there was near zero variation in the arrangement from the first iteration of the melody to the second and then to the third.

This is a very short piece, yet there were surprisingly no notable changes to Tim's arranged melody that would have contributed some sort of development as the mix moved from verse to verse. Changing up the activity on the second bridge compared to the first was nice, but I didn't feel that was enough. The main melody here was the meat of the mix, yet that clearly wasn't varied enough, with only a light woodwind coming in during the second & third (fading) verse. That's not much at all. What about placing some of the support instruments, like the acoustic guitar, light keyboard, or woodwind, in a more prominent position in one of the verses, or at least trying another type of relaxing lead for one verse; something that would retain the gentle, laid-back approach while displaying some marked development with the arrangement?

It's obvious that more could be done with the heart of the piece without, as Tim essentially put it, perverting the general approach of remaining close to the source material. The presence of some substantial development and/or changes in the nature of the instrumentation within the course of the track is all I would need to see this as over the line. This is almost grazing the line for me on account of the subtle changes I noted upon active listening, but in the end anything that intends to stay true to the structure of the original work needs to be more dynamic of an instrumentation upgrade to substantially change the feel of the track compared to the source material.

NO (borderline)