Ufouria (NES) - Above the Clouds

[Drakken]

Final version with better EQ, 7-21-11:

Thanks to Stevo for the EQ suggestions!

UPDATE! 6-20-11:

I resubmitted the song on June 14th. Here's the version that was submitted:

6-2-11:

My song was judged in May (here's the thread). It got rejected, but there were a number of positive comments, and the consensus was that I should resubmit it. So, definitely an encouraging result.

The two main complaints were that the left-hand piano part was too simple/rigid and that the overall soundscape was a bit muddy. I've been working on it a ton more since then and made some pretty significant changes/additions. Here's the latest version:

Note that the volume is low compared to other tracks, so you'll want to turn it up. I'm still having problems getting my tracks loud. So far when I've tried compressing it I feel like it's made the song sound worse.

Any comments/feedback/suggestions are greatly appreciated. I feel like I'm really close with this one.

---ORIGINAL POST---

Hi! I've been a member here for a little while but haven't posted much or attempted a remix until now. This song is a very loose, mainly-piano interpretation of the main level theme + the credits theme of Hebereke / Ufouria, an NES game made by Sunsoft. It starts off with the source material then kind of flows from there, with phrases from Hebereke's music mixed in throughout. There's a phrase from the title screen at the end as well.

UPDATED 10/6: Latest (hopefully final) version:

Download link

Zophar's Domain link to NSF source (tracks 1 and 11, also the end of 5)

Youtube link to source ("Overworld", also the end of "Main Theme")

Youtube link to source #2 ("Ending Theme")

Comments appreciated! I'm thinking the split between arrangement and original might be a problem, as the arrangement might be too loose / there might be too much original content.

Version 2 (much less piano reverb): http://tindeck.com/listen/ojcy

Version 1 (for posterity's sake): http://tindeck.com/listen/qdgg

[Drakken]

At the risk of seeming impatient, I'd love some feedback! It's a simple song, so it shouldn't be too difficult to evaluate.

Here's a breakdown; maybe this will help:

Starts off with the main level theme (NSF track 1) in a different key, then flows from there

1:01 - 1:32 (comes from 0:25 of the main level theme)

1:33 (flowing from main level theme again)

2:32 - end (0:29 of credits theme / track 11 of NSF) - I revised the ending few held chords from the above version to match up with the source's ending notes

2:57 - end (0:40 of title screen music / track 5 of NSF)

There might be more that crept in there, but since it's a loose arrangement it's hard to remember what phrases I took from the sources and what just flowed from the main level theme. Those are the main ones, though.

[hewhoisiam]

Sometimes it take a while before you get feedback I'll give it a go.

For piano arrangements/minimalist stuff, the bar is really high as far as OCR standards go. What you have now sounds pretty mechanical as far as volume and presentation on the piano.

My theory is pretty weak, but it seems a bit on the simplistic side for what you're going for. The fewer instruments and sounds you use, the more you have to do with them to keep it interesting and fresh. I hear lots of repetition in there, which may call for some changes to keep interest and make places/things/sounds/ideas really pop out.

The pad sounds you use are somewhat overwhelming in places. (esp the last sustained chord) They're also in the range/sound as the piano, so it sounds kinda muddy to me. Maybe just opinion though.

Maybe opinion again, but there's a lot of reverb on that piano. Too much for my taste. Esp in the higher ranges.

As far as that goes, the entire mix is more or less in the same 'range' on the piano. Up and down octaves might help things a bit in places.

Another thing in tracks like this one that's kinda neat is when you get fermata pauses on important notes like intros and sustains. Tempo and stuff.

Volume is samie all the way through. A track like this can really benefit from a lot of dynamic range: From the whispers to shouts.

At the risk of seeming impatient, I'd love some feedback! It's a simple song, so it shouldn't be too difficult to evaluate.

I feel your pain! I post a mix then troll OCR forums thinking to myself: they're looking at it... WHY is no one saying anything! They're mocking me! *refresh* Nothing! Argh!

Anyway, good stuff. Hope that helps.

[Drakken]

I finally came back to this song and spent some quality time on it. Changes:

-Volume tweaks to try to humanize it and make it more interesting

-Instrumentation changes - went from solo flute to oboe/clarinet/flute with a flute harmony

-Reduced the lows on the pads so they're not overpowering anymore

-Reduced the reverb on the piano by a bit (the reverb is what gives it that spacey/ambient sound so I didn't want to reduce it too much)

Here's version 2:

%20-%20Drakken%20-%20Above%20the%20Clouds%20(WIP).mp3"]Download link

Once again, I'd love some comments/feedback.

[Nutritious]

Can't listen to the source right now, but I'll comment on the rest:

I agree with hewhoisiam that this is a pretty simplistic arrangement - espeically the first section with just piano. It's basically just a 3 note repeating pattern on the left hand, while the right holds down the melody. Though I can hear vairation on velocities of the notes (which is good), it still sounds a bit robotic with the rigidly accurate sequencing. Hey, noone said sequencing solo piano was easy.

I wasn't too sure how this would go until the other elements came in. They brought a ton more interest and life to this song and convinced me that there is potential here. I still think the arrangement is on the simple side though. The supporting elements have a lot of just sustained notes backing the simplistic piano.

The textures overall are pretty nice and calm. The piano tone isn't stellar, but passable. The woodwinds sounded good. Honestly, the brass(?) samples at the end really didn't cut it - I heard them earlier in the background, which covered them more, but at the end they're very exposed in a bad way.

The song is very pretty, just simple. I really think you could do a ton more with this arrangement to make it more interesting. At the very lease, vary up the rhythms, and perhaps more instruments as well. I'm gonna try and go listen to the original so I can get a better idea of how this relates.

[Drakken]

Thanks for the feedback! Yeah, it definitely is a simple song. But I feel like it's supposed to be - in my head it's this simple, pretty song that makes you feel like you're floating through the air or something. My concern with trying to do more is that it'll take away from that. I had considered trying to come up with a more active left hand pattern or adding drums to the 2nd half and making it fuller but shied away from those ideas for that reason. So I dunno...

I was surprised to see you say the piano sound is merely passable. I really like the spacey/airy feel it has. *shrug* The brass is actually just a warm pad, which I think goes well with the atmosphere I'm going for.

[Drakken]

Well, I've finally come back to this song. Here's the latest version:

Download link

I changed the piano settings to make it more reverby because honestly that spacey feel is what makes the song. I also added some more high piano stuff to the first half and did some volume tweaking.

I'm changing the status to mod review because to me it's finished. I don't think I can add more to this without changing the feel of the song. It's supposed to evoke kind of a floaty feeling of being above the clouds (duh), and I think it accomplishes that nicely. I tried imagining it with drums or more complicated piano and it just wasn't working.

[Emunator]

Bumping this so when I'm available to review it, I'll see it. I'll try my best to get to your song today or tomorrow Sorry about the wait!

[Emunator]

Yeah, I suck. I'm sorry for not getting to this earlier It's been a busy week and I've been super absent-minded.

Maybe it's just because this has been improved more since the last versions that everyone else commented on, but I love this I'm not sure that the simplicity of the arrangement lends itself to OCR's standards as much as a more complex arrangement would, but god this is beautiful. It sounds like something I'd hear right out of a game soundtrack.

My suggestions? Tone down the pad and the reverb a little bit near the end, it gets kind of heavy on the speakers and just becomes a wall of sound. I know you're going for a reverbed, airy feel (which you accomplish wonderfully) but at some points it gets just a little too intense and I think you should make some EQ cuts here and there to give things a little more room to breathe.

I'd say, submit this. The simplistic left hand writing might be too repetitive for the judges, but your source breakdown seems to be all clear, and I honestly feel like the atmosphere of the remix more than compensates for any issues in arrangement that may or may not be perceived.

Regardless of what happens, I'm keeping this on my playlist It's a wonderful arrangement and I feel really bad for not getting around to reviewing this earlier, so my apologize for my lameness! Best of luck with whatever you decide to do with this song!

[Nutritious]

Just thought I'd point out, it sounds like your piano player grew a third arm at :53

[Drakken]

Thanks for the comments! Really glad to hear you like it. I'll try to make those tweaks you suggested. I have to admit I'm a production newb, though - what exactly would you recommend EQing? Cutting some lows out from the pads at the end?

If anyone else has any thoughts, please let me know! If I don't hear anything else I'll likely be submitting it in a few days.

Just thought I'd point out, it sounds like your piano player grew a third arm at :53

Haha, let's just say he called over a friend to help with that part.

[Drakken]

Update! My song was judged in May (here's the thread). It got rejected, but there were a number of positive comments, and the consensus was that I should resubmit it. So, definitely an encouraging result.

The two main complaints were that the left-hand piano part was too simple/rigid and that the overall soundscape was a bit muddy. I've been working on it a ton more since then and made some pretty significant changes/additions. Here's the latest version:

Note that the volume is low compared to other tracks, so you'll want to turn it up. I'm still having problems getting my tracks loud. So far when I've tried compressing it I feel like it's made the song sound worse.

Any comments/feedback/suggestions are greatly appreciated. I feel like I'm really close with this one. For reference, the source breakdown is in the second post.

[Emunator]

Well, you definitely did a solid job of addressing the left-hand issues. After having a long time away to let this one grow on me, though, I'm definitely noticing the rigidity of your timing that some judges pointed out in the decision thread, and it's making this piece feel a bit more robotic than I'd like. Some subtle timing/velocity (more on the former than the latter) changes to make your song feel a bit less like it's being played by a sequencer would really go a long way.

Other than that, I dig. Honestly, you could probably edge by with what you've got since the major issue with the previous version has been addressed, but while you're at it, fixing up some of the robotic-ness in your timing would push this from "really good" to "fantastic" status

[Drakken]

I'm really close to resubbing this, but I'm having trouble getting it louder. The volume is fine in Pro Tools (my DAW), but when bounced to a .wav file it's pretty quiet compared to random tracks in my library. I've tried amplifying/normalizing/compressing in Audacity, but none of those methods seem to get the job done without affecting the quality of the sound.

Here's the song without any changes:

And here's the song with a t-racks classic compressor:

I think the original version sounds better. I feel like the compression adds volume but sacrifices clarity or something. I'd appreciate some other opinions, though.

[Level 99]

Getting it louder using a master compressor shouldn't be terribly difficult. The problem here is the same thing I ran into when trying to work with my buddy Emunator's pianos for my Pokemon TCG remix. Just like then, the pianos are rich and full, very mid heavy with just a bit of borderline high shine and drenched in emotive reverb. What you need to do to get more clarity in this mix is tone down the reverb a little by increasing the dry mix 5-10%, and better yet, narrow and control the frequency range of that reverb. The arrangement is pretty stellar, and it is a shame that this is being held back somewhat by slight muddiness.

Once you have that reverb under control, now comes the painstaking task of modifying the frequencies of the additional accompaniment instruments. In a mix like this, you want to draw them away from the middle frequencies. Example: those strings should have a mid range scoop so that they dance above the piano's high range peak and then have warm bass below the left hand notes, focusing more on the low end than the high. You want the high to be reserved a bit more for the oboe and flute, where you should again try a small scoop and boost the high end slightly for those two.

After that, post a new version, and if it is ready, you can probably add a master compressor like Kjerhaus for -3 db, giving it an even volume. Also consider a master EQ that can pick and enhance frequencies and harmonies that cater to this style. None of that will work until the main mix is scrubbed to a mirror shine though.

That being said, I adore this. It is relaxing, and emotive. I'm not feeling any of the aforementioned rigid piano, I think it is pretty smooth. You're definitely close to being sub-ready!

[Drakken]

THANK YOU! This is exactly the kind of feedback I needed.

Unfortunately, I already resubbed the song last week, but I'm definitely going to try to implement the changes you suggested. What's OCR's policy on sending in an improved version of your song once it's waiting on the judges panel?

Here's what I sent the judges btw:

Should be the same as what was in my last post, just that I was able to get it a little louder without sacrificing anything by messing with the master limiter.

[Level 99]

Sorry about the late reply, but the judge's official stance on changes to mixes after submitting it is that you can't change it. Some people use personal ftp's and dropbox, which allows link and file replacement on the fly, which is taking a chance if they upload a new version because you can never be 100% sure on if they judges have listened to the mix yet or not. The Judge's Queue thread isn't always completely accurate, so again, replace if you want to take your chances (in this case you can't because you're using tindeck which has no replace or hotlink method). However, if it gets rejected again, you should definitely be on hand with a resub ready. (that's my way of telling you to go make those fixes NOW, because if it gets rejected you're immediately able to resub, and if it gets posted you can request the improved version to be used instead if the changes are minimal enough and/or the staff allows it).

Plus yeah, I really want to hear those fixes put into place.

[Liontamer]

I've heard it already, but make whatever changes you have and hook it up. Mail me at larryoji@ocremix.org when it's done.

[Drakken]

OK, here's my attempt at implementing Level 99's changes:

I lowered the reverb, though not by a ton, as I really want to retain the floaty feeling. I tried the EQ scoops, and though my ears are still untrained, I felt like it made a small difference when comparing the two versions. Particularly the flutes/woodwinds, they seem to be a bit louder now, perhaps a bit too harsh (at least when listening with headphones)? I'm very much a noob when it comes to EQ and am still educating myself, so I may be totally wrong.

Besides the EQ adjustments, I also raised the volume of the strings in the first half a bit (hopefully not too much). Additionally, in the second half the background strings were inadvertently still panned to one side, so I centered those. Let me know what you think. Assuming it's better, I'll go ahead and send it to Larry.

[Level 99]

Talked with you about this last night over AIM, but yes, this version is much improved. Those little changes can make a big difference, and the EQ scoops + slight reduction in reverb have cleared up a majority of the mud that was present in the mix. The piano sounds brighter and less drowned out while still being dreamy, and the winds dance above that melody while the strings support from below. It all sounds a lot crisper. This, IMHO, is the definitive version of the mix you've made thus far.

Only problem is tindeck isn't giving me an option to download the mix. I have, however, passed the link to latest mix version on to Larry.

[Drakken]

Talked with you about this last night over AIM, but yes, this version is much improved. Those little changes can make a big difference, and the EQ scoops + slight reduction in reverb have cleared up a majority of the mud that was present in the mix. The piano sounds brighter and less drowned out while still being dreamy, and the winds dance above that melody while the strings support from below. It all sounds a lot crisper. This, IMHO, is the definitive version of the mix you've made thus far.

Only problem is tindeck isn't giving me an option to download the mix. I have, however, passed the link to latest mix version on to Larry.

Great to get some confirmation on this. Thanks again for the suggestions; they were really helpful to an EQ noob like me.

I've enabled downloading on the Tindeck link.

I've heard it already, but make whatever changes you have and hook it up. Mail me at larryoji@ocremix.org when it's done.

Sent!