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[ectogemia]

So, a little bit of a Whole30 update. Since I was expressing some frustrations with the lack of results over the last 3.5 weeks, I realized that I have unwittingly been including seed oils in my diet.

Before you say it's totally invalidated (and it may very well be) the consumption wasn't that crazy. Maybe a handful or two of vegetable chips in the evening that had safflower or some other seed oil as an ingredient. My wife and I thought these were a Whole30 approved snack, and we were wrong. Whoops.

But other than that, I've been 100% virtuous. Friday, I'm stopping a day early because I'm going to a BBQ and I'm tired of this bull in a social setting, but I plan on continuing a 80/20 lifestyle.

To be honest, safflower oil shouldn't be too bad being that it's mostly oleic acid (omega-9) which is not inflammatory like omega-6, nor is it the target for a common enzyme like omega-3 and omega-6 are, so there's no need to eat omega-9 in a balance with some other nutrient. So my own best guess is that's not what's preventing you from getting results, but stranger things have happened...

I still think you should try cutting the allergy meds. Here's an article from Nature (one of the biggest scientific journals evar) which makes a case for antihistamines potentiating your allergies over the long term. References are at the bottom in case you want to get a little more info by reading the studies themselves.

And yeah, 80/20 is fine. Maybe 90/10 But 100/0 is no way to live.

edit: So on that same vein of trying to cut antihistamines in order to fix your allergies, check out this quote from the Nature article:

"We believe that the antihistamines were doing more than disrupting the immediate immune reaction to the first venom dosage,” says Johansen. “We think they were also keeping the immune system from getting used to that dosage."

And here's a study defining a mechanism which substantiates his claim. Your dendritic cells are perhaps the primary "antigen-presenting cells" in your immune cell complement. An antigen is a molecule or a part of a molecule which has the potential to generate an antibody/ immune response (hence, "anti[body]" "gen[erator])." So an allergen is just an antigen which elicits a more specific variety of immune response, an IgE-mediated response, and it is that IgE antibody bound to an antigen/allergen which is capable of activating basophils and mast cells which then secrete all that shitty, symptom-causing histamine into your blood. According to this article and the Nature guy's quote, antihistamines will prevent dendritic cells from "presenting" antigens as effectively, a process which is crucial for determining which molecules the body considers ordinary molecules and which it considers to be antigens/allergens, which means your body doesn't get as much of a chance to get "used to" certain antigens.

Also, I'm putting the big plates on the bar for overhead press next week. WOOP WOOP.

Edited June 5, 2013 by ectogemia

[XPRTNovice]

To be honest, safflower oil shouldn't be too bad being that it's mostly oleic acid (omega-9) which is not inflammatory like omega-6, nor is it the target for a common enzyme like omega-3 and omega-6 are, so there's no need to eat omega-9 in a balance with some other nutrient. So my own best guess is that's not what's preventing you from getting results, but stranger things have happened...

I still think you should try cutting the allergy meds. Here's an article from Nature (one of the biggest scientific journals evar) which makes a case for antihistamines potentiating your allergies over the long term. References are at the bottom in case you want to get a little more info by reading the studies themselves.

And yeah, 80/20 is fine. Maybe 90/10 But 100/0 is no way to live.

I'm inclined to agree with you regarding safflower oil not destroying my immune system, especially since I don't have a lot of biological responses (other than the allergies) that suggest my immune system is weird. So, it's plausible to think that there wasn't much damage for me to heal with this diet anyway.

Regarding the removal of meds; I've tried on several occasions. In one instance, I stopped taking 1 of the 2 of them for 3 months, and only took the other one once every other day. the last time I went completely off of them it was for 7 days so that I could get tested, and that really, really sucked. The time I was off it before that I literally was giving my wife instructions on what pills to force me to take if my throat closed in the middle of the night. West TX in a 100-year-old house with a cat in it is NOT the place to be for allergies.

Like I said, I'm getting allergy shots weekly that should help me get off the meds, though. Thanks for the article, it's a good read.

[ectogemia]

Regarding the removal of meds; I've tried on several occasions. In one instance, I stopped taking 1 of the 2 of them for 3 months, and only took the other one once every other day. the last time I went completely off of them it was for 7 days so that I could get tested, and that really, really sucked. The time I was off it before that I literally was giving my wife instructions on what pills to force me to take if my throat closed in the middle of the night.

Were you eating cleanly when you were last off your meds? Aaaand as an aside, the efficacy of allergy shots relies heavily upon the ability of your dendritic cells to function, and they are being inhibited by the antihistamines you are taking. If the shots are working despite that and you really need the antihistamines to feel comfortable, by all means, keep taking 'em, but I just thought I'd throw it out there that we've got a good reason to believe based on the studies we just looked at that stopping your antihistamines will speed up the desensitization process the allergy shots are intended to initiate.

Edited June 5, 2013 by ectogemia

[XPRTNovice]

Were you eating cleanly when you were last off your meds? Aaaand as an aside, the efficacy of allergy shots relies heavily upon the ability of your dendritic cells to function, and they are being inhibited by the antihistamines you are taking. If the shots are working despite that and you really need the antihistamines to feel comfortable, by all means, keep taking 'em, but I just thought I'd throw it out there that we've got a good reason to believe based on the studies we just looked at that stopping your antihistamines will speed up the desensitization process the allergy shots are intended to initiate.

No, I was not whole-30ing the last time I was off the meds; it was pre Born Again. However, I've been trying to wean myself off the meds while on whole 30 to try and give my body room to heal. It's not easy, though, man.

[ectogemia]

No, I was not whole-30ing the last time I was off the meds; it was pre Born Again. However, I've been trying to wean myself off the meds while on whole 30 to try and give my body room to heal. It's not easy, though, man.

I know. I had allergies for 20 years Keep on weanin'.

[XPRTNovice]

I will.

In other health-related news, I soaked and roasted my own raw almonds to leech the phytic acid out. They are AMAZING.

I actually did the same thing with self-collected acorns last fall, though I don't recommend it. Or, at least, I don't recommend accidentally burning the f@$% out of them and trying to salvage them.

[XPRTNovice]

So, today's my last day on Whole 30 and my 4th day without allergy medication. It's not fun. I've been sneezing and almost-sneezing for most of the last couple of days.

The only real couple of changes physiologically I've noticed are: I wake up before my alarm, regardless of how much sleep I've gotten and I generally don't experience the mid-afternoon crash. But I wouldn't call either of those things groundbreaking, as that was happening prior to the Whole30 experience, when I was probably eating 70/30 anyway.

Tomorrow I'm going to go drink beer at a BBQ (and buy an oboe, but that's sort of beside the point). And smoke my goddamn hookah. But I'll probably continue being close to 90/10 on most days, I'll try to keep the allergy medication down (or at least greatly reduced) and see if I can't use some of that local honey trick to kick the rest of the allergies. I'll be able to tolerate this for a month or so, but if this is a 6-month repair process it's going to be rough as shit.

[Thin Crust]

You were absolutely right. I just went almost 2 months on the no carb diet and I finally did some real physical activity since going on it. Sure I've been doing ellipticals or exercise bikes, but this time it was ultimate frisbee. And if you know me, I always give it 110% at sports. Let me tell you, I was red lining the entire time. I was up to 192bpm only 15 minutes into play. I'm happy that I'm losing so much weight, but you warned me that I wouldn't have as much energy. Oh well, worth it.

But in the meantime, I'm only halfway there and need to lose another 25 lbs.

[Thin Crust]

UPDATE

I'm going off my diet for now. After I got back from Frisbee, I took a 5 minute swim and relaxed on my computer for a bit afterward. My jaw started aching a little bit and my left shoulder blade was hurting during Frisbee. This is classic signs of heart attack so I kind of panicked and went driving to the store figuring if something happened, I didn't want it to happen when I was alone in my apartment. I was almost there and decided that I needed some carbs badly and was about to go into Subway. While driving, I got really light headed, broke out in a flash sweat, felt sick to my stomach, and my bpm was down to 30. Honestly, I was about to pass out on the road. I turned on my emergency flashers and ran a red light to get to work (The hospital). By the time I got there, the episode was mostly over so instead of emergency room, I went into my department and found my co-worker and asked if she could take my blood sugar. It was 81. Most likely, it was a lot lower before.

I left the hospital and went to subway and got the most carb-heavy sub on the menu (Meatball). Then I called and went over to another one of my co-workers and we monitored my BP and glucose for the next 5 hours. My sugar went up to 120 after they fed me something, but then dropped down to 80 again. I was also having orthostatic hypertension. My BP hourly was:

117/44

109/66

119/67

and then something close to normal, I don't remember exactly what.

My jaw still kind of aches and there's no reason for it to and that has me worried. We'll see how it feels tomorrow. But I am never going to be doing such strenuous exercise on a low carb diet ever again.

[ectogemia]

UPDATE

I'm going off my diet for now. After I got back from Frisbee, I took a 5 minute swim and relaxed on my computer for a bit afterward. My jaw started aching a little bit and my left shoulder blade was hurting during Frisbee. This is classic signs of heart attack so I kind of panicked and went driving to the store figuring if something happened, I didn't want it to happen when I was alone in my apartment. I was almost there and decided that I needed some carbs badly and was about to go into Subway. While driving, I got really light headed, broke out in a flash sweat, felt sick to my stomach, and my bpm was down to 30. Honestly, I was about to pass out on the road. I turned on my emergency flashers and ran a red light to get to work (The hospital). By the time I got there, the episode was mostly over so instead of emergency room, I went into my department and found my co-worker and asked if she could take my blood sugar. It was 81. Most likely, it was a lot lower before.

I left the hospital and went to subway and got the most carb-heavy sub on the menu (Meatball). Then I called and went over to another one of my co-workers and we monitored my BP and glucose for the next 5 hours. My sugar went up to 120 after they fed me something, but then dropped down to 80 again. I was also having orthostatic hypertension. My BP hourly was:

117/44

109/66

119/67

and then something close to normal, I don't remember exactly what.

My jaw still kind of aches and there's no reason for it to and that has me worried. We'll see how it feels tomorrow. But I am never going to be doing such strenuous exercise on a low carb diet ever again.

Those are all pretty normal blood pressures and blood sugars, dude :/

Are you sure you weren't dehydrated? A low-carb-diet reaction to exercise isn't supposed to be something as acute as that. It's more of a hormone imbalance which can manifest over time. I'm going with dehydrated on this one.

[Soul Splint]

Hope you're feeling better now, TC. And I'm in agreement with Ecto; that doesn't sound like a low-carb related problem. Dehydration is much more likely (and all of your symptoms match; I've been hospitalized twice for dehydration).

Topic switch: I've just been banned from weightlifting for 10-14 days. My shoulder has been on/off aching for a couple of months now, and after talking to my best friend from high school (who is a Physical Therapist's Assistant), he has concluded I am one bad lift away from injuring my left rotator cuff.

So, no weights, lots of ice, lots of ibuprofen, lots of rest, and lots of calories. Damn it.

[XPRTNovice]

So, no weights, lots of ice cream, lots of ibuprofen, lots of rest, and lots of calories. Damn it.

I don't see the issue here...

[Soul Splint]

Good point. Way to find that silver lining for me.

"The only good thing about getting shot in the buttocks, is the ice cream."

[ectogemia]

Hope you're feeling better now, TC. And I'm in agreement with Ecto; that doesn't sound like a low-carb related problem. Dehydration is much more likely (and all of your symptoms match; I've been hospitalized twice for dehydration).

Topic switch: I've just been banned from weightlifting for 10-14 days. My shoulder has been on/off aching for a couple of months now, and after talking to my best friend from high school (who is a Physical Therapist's Assistant), he has concluded I am one bad lift away from injuring my left rotator cuff.

So, no weights, lots of ice, lots of ibuprofen, lots of rest, and lots of calories. Damn it.

Shit... I should probably do the same. I was dipping way, way too low for well over 2 months, and my left elbow and shoulder were feeling pretty awful. They've gotten a lot better since I've fixed my dipping depth, but there's still a little pain, especially in my elbow. Can you describe your pain? I wanna see if I'm in the same boat as you

[Soul Splint]

Shit... I should probably do the same. I was dipping way, way too low for well over 2 months, and my left elbow and shoulder were feeling pretty awful. They've gotten a lot better since I've fixed my dipping depth, but there's still a little pain, especially in my elbow. Can you describe your pain? I wanna see if I'm in the same boat as you

While immobile, I would describe it as a 'barely there' pressure, as I'm just barely aware that it doesn't feel normal. Then, when I do a flat press, it's a dull pain at about 1 out of 10 on the pain scale. As the lift elevation goes up, so does the pain. Vertical presses are about a 2 or 3 out of 10 (still a dull ache). The epicenter of the pain is in my rotator cuff (precisely: put your finger in the center of your left deltoid, then move it up toward your head about half an inch, then forward toward your chest a little less than one inch. Bingo).

The ache will persist for at least an hour after shoulder/chest workouts. The test my wife performed on me (she's an RN) made her think it was a rotator cuff issue as well. If you do a lateral raise with no weight, it will probably feel slightly uncomfortable. If you have someone assist you and lift your arm for you, and then you don't feel any pain, that is indicative of a rotator cuff issue. The test was dead-on for me; I didn't feel any discomfort when she lifted my arm for me. I'm not sure how you would do a similar test for the elbow...

[ectogemia]

While immobile, I would describe it as a 'barely there' pressure, as I'm just barely aware that it doesn't feel normal. Then, when I do a flat press, it's a dull pain at about 1 out of 10 on the pain scale. As the lift elevation goes up, so does the pain. Vertical presses are about a 2 or 3 out of 10 (still a dull ache). The epicenter of the pain is in my rotator cuff (precisely: put your finger in the center of your left deltoid, then move it up toward your head about half an inch, then forward toward your chest a little less than one inch. Bingo).

The ache will persist for at least an hour after shoulder/chest workouts. The test my wife performed on me (she's an RN) made her think it was a rotator cuff issue as well. If you do a lateral raise with no weight, it will probably feel slightly uncomfortable. If you have someone assist you and lift your arm for you, and then you don't feel any pain, that is indicative of a rotator cuff issue. The test was dead-on for me; I didn't feel any discomfort when she lifted my arm for me. I'm not sure how you would do a similar test for the elbow...

Ahhh, gotcha. Mine's not like that at all. It's definitely an elbow/shoulder issue, but I only have pain when I put pressure on the joint, and even then, it either takes a hard jerking motion (like sauteing in a heavy cast iron pan; not masturbating -- this is my left arm we are talking about) or a lot of weight to trigger the pain. Feels like a bone pain rather than a muscle pain, so I probably overstressed the ligaments or something. Damn this fragile body...

[OceansAndrew]

hey guys, what is everyone's opinion of what constitutes 'low carb'?

20% caloric intake? 15%?

[Soul Splint]

hey guys, what is everyone's opinion of what constitutes 'low carb'?

20% caloric intake? 15%?

20% is plenty low enough (for me). I don't think I've ever gone below 20% for more than a week at a time, and even then I've only done that a handful of times. I just start feeling like crap no matter what I do if it gets that low for any decent amount of time.

[XPRTNovice]

I don't pay attention to it. I just avoid carbs that aren't found in fruits and vegetables.

[ectogemia]

hey guys, what is everyone's opinion of what constitutes 'low carb'?

20% caloric intake? 15%?

Gonna go with Soul Splint. 20%, although it depends upon the goal of switching to a low carb diet (fat loss vs. insulin sensitization, for instance), even though there's obviously overlap between the benefits of doing low carb and the motivation for doing it in the first place. Depends upon the person's genetics and metabolic status as well, in addition to their activity level. Diabetics would have a different definition of low-carb than the average Joe. The three of us would have a different definition than the average Joe because we're active. I would have different definitions of low-carb when I'm bulking compared to when I'm cutting. But 20% is an "all-around" number which is thrown around a lot and tends to get people results in general, but again, it varies based upon the goal for doing low carb and other factors as well.

I don't pay attention to it. I just avoid carbs that aren't found in fruits and vegetables.

This works pretty well, too, haha, although I eat starch on workout days in the forms of yams and potatoes. I don't count my carbs at all at the moment. I just eat "enough". If you're trying to do something tricky, like cut from 10% BF to 5% BF while maintaining lean mass, you'll probably have to watch carbs a little more closely unless you were gifted with a favorable fat and carb metabolism.

Edited June 19, 2013 by ectogemia

[OceansAndrew]

cool, was just curious. I'm not altering anything im doing right now anyways, was just trying to get a feeling for what is considered low. I am usually at about 40%.

[OceansAndrew]

did a checkin on my metrics, and in the past 2 months, I am up 6lb and .5% bf. Overall weight wise, that's 1lb of fat, so I am estimating about 2lb of muscle and 3lb of water. Definitely have been seeing it in my back and traps, and a bit in my legs.

Exciting times, just need a bit more shoulder in the next 2 months, and i'll be set for the Otakon in-costume performance at the OCR panel.

[ectogemia]

edit: I'm also thinkin' it may be time to rename the thread since 90% of the discussion is about fitness and health rather than Fitocracy. Might get more people in on the discussion.

did a checkin on my metrics, and in the past 2 months, I am up 6lb and .5% bf. Overall weight wise, that's 1lb of fat, so I am estimating about 2lb of muscle and 3lb of water. Definitely have been seeing it in my back and traps, and a bit in my legs.

Nice, dude! You were looking pretty ripped at MAG, and that wasn't even cutting season. Bet you're huge now. What's your body weight, height, and bf%?

Here's my nearly-5-month check-in on my major lifts

Weight when I started lifting just after MAGFest: 142.0

Weight now: 185.5

All of these are done as 3 sets of 5:

Squats - 280

Deadlifts - 335

Overhead Press - 140

Benchpress - 185 (my chest is lagging)

Dips - body weight + 80

Pullups & Chinups - body weight + 27.5 (these aren't progressing anymore for some reason)

I look and feel like a goddamn new person. Lifting is fun The only shitty part of this deal is the eating. Dear fucking god, I'm so sick of eating 3500-4000 Calories daily...

edit: I'm also thinkin' it may be time to rename the thread since 90% of the discussion is about fitness and health rather than Fitocracy. Might get more people in on the discussion.

Edited June 27, 2013 by ectogemia

[OceansAndrew]

Nice, dude! You were looking pretty ripped at MAG, and that wasn't even cutting season. Bet you're huge now. What's your body weight, height, and bf%?

weight: 172, height is 5'9, bf% is 10.2%

looking to get to about 175, then keep the weight stable while getting back to 8%.

For your chins/pullups, what has been helping me is switching between weighted chins and century sets. My plateau wasn't actual strength (I could do at least one with 90lb), but endurance. Mixing it up has helped overall, give it a shot!

[ectogemia]

weight: 172, height is 5'9, bf% is 10.2%

looking to get to about 175, then keep the weight stable while getting back to 8%.

Damn, same height. Looks like I've got some fat to lose Can't wait til my cut in 6 friggin months.

For your chins/pullups, what has been helping me is switching between weighted chins and century sets. My plateau wasn't actual strength (I could do at least one with 90lb), but endurance. Mixing it up has helped overall, give it a shot!

Very good idea. I may be having the same issue as you. The first 2 reps are cake, but then it's immediately extremely taxing and difficult on that 3rd rep. I hate pulls/chins