Tropes vs. Women / #GamerGate Conspiracies

[Ab56 v2 aka Ash]

your implication if I understand correctly is that Princess Peach is a negative role-model for girls; your reasoning is bad because

1) there's not really any evidence to suggest that Princess Peach is supposed to be or is actively interpreted as role-model of any capacity

2) implying that Princess Peach cannot be the character that she already is because a female character has to be [x] is sexist; one could argue that Princess Peach's character was produced out of sexist character tropes from a largely patriarchal society (and I agree), however to argue that the trope of damsel in distress just should not exist is irrational and deleterious to the idea of gender equality

3) in mainline Mario platformers, the Mario Bros. and Princess Peach are largely lacking in actual characterization; all of the examples of video games in which Princess Peach is an actual character with written dialogue, she's an arguably positive character (or at the very least, the worst of the negative character traits that she's accused of having are reduced to the point of being negligible)

my point here is that I think that while there are many, many examples of shitty female characters and patriarchal sexism in video games, Princess Peach is probably a pretty shitty example to be using at the forefront of ones thoughts regarding this particular issue

No one's really making the argument you're contesting in your second point so I'm going to leave that alone, since I agree.

Your third point lends to the idea that these characters are either meant to be interpreted, or nonetheless will be interpreted by the audience precisely because they have such little characterization. I was never concerned with what developers actively intended so much as the actual effects of their actions, so your first point doesn't really matter. Young girls consume games and other media and look for characters to see as role models. Many girls often pick the ones they identify with, because they happen to be the same gender. For example, in this very thread someone linked a video in which a little girl wanted to play as Pauline in Donkey Kong, a character she identified with more than the male character. However, the vast majority of Mario games don't offer that opportunity and instead only feature female characters that are more like props than something young girls want to be like. That makes the games feel more exclusive and intended for male enjoyment, and that's what the problem is at its heart.

I would not agree that games like Super Mario RPG are free of huge flaws. They do relegate Peach, the only girl, to a support role and she's getting rescued half the time. That's not to say the game doesn't have its good points, but really, very few Mario games seem to actually delve into this characterization anyway.

[Monobrow]

Hence my prev post for a case in point there Ash. Dunno why this stuff isn't obvious. In the case of my niece its pretty clear.

[Bleck]

This is straight from the obvious observations of a little girl and you guy are trying to say Peach is a good role model or shouldn't be seen as one even though they market her as such? Just no.

how and where is Peach marketed as a role model

My niece was Peach for Halloween when she was six. Her reasoning: She's pretty and Mario's girlfriend.

When my niece was seven she was Mario for Halloween instead. I asked her why and she said Peach is boring and Mario is "awesome sauce".

I'm not really sure what the point of this anecdote is

Young girls consume games and other media and look for characters to see as role models. Many girls often pick the ones they identify with, because they happen to be the same gender.

yeah let's force female characters to be a certain way because girls are only allowed to look at other girls as role models that sure isn't sexist at all

[relyanCe]

I would not agree that games like Super Mario RPG are free of huge flaws. They do relegate Peach, the only girl, to a support role and she's getting rescued half the time. That's not to say the game doesn't have its good points, but really, very few Mario games seem to actually delve into this characterization anyway.

EDIT

edit: peach is dope in smrpg

word

Edited March 12, 2013 by relyanCe

[Radiowar]

We're getting a little offtopic here. Remember that the video we're actually talking about did not condemn these games as sexist, but just discussed the trope, which can appear even in just part of a game and not necessarily the whole game. Likewise WE are not sexist for playing and enjoying them and there is nothing wrong with that... again, this was explicitly stated. We are not being accused of anything so let's move away from talking about guilt, perceived guilt, etc. because it's not relevant here.

this this this this this this

part of understanding sexism in our society has to be a willingness to see the whole picture. it's not about who's to blame, or who's having too much blame forced upon them ("try being a straight white male" is one of my favourite sentences ever, thank you). some women benefit from patriarchy, many men benefit from patriarchy; some men suffer from patriarchy, many women suffer from patriarchy. let's not make this about how many Suffering Points you have to get before we never have to talk about it again, BUT let's also not forget that we're not talking about a level playing field: when it comes to gender (a social hierarchy based on sexual difference), society favours men; when it comes to race (a social hierarchy based on physical difference), society favours white; when it comes to sexual orientation (a social hierarchy based on attraction), society favours heterosexual. these are real, demonstrable truths about our society, and relyance, it is unfortunate that you've had such unpleasant experiences, but as blunt and wrongheaded as they may seem, they almost certainly come from a lived reality in which women, people of colour, and homosexuals are told from birth and reminded of with regularity, in ways subtle and overt, that the world is not for them.

because in reality, the end goal of a movement like feminism is not equality (in the sense of achieving an "equal" social status with men, which is to say, the oppressor-class). it should be okay for a woman to say to a man that this is not a space for you. not to turn the tables on men, but to understand that if the experience of a woman is one in which her space - not only in a social sense, but in a personal sense, her body and her identity - are regularly invaded and dominated by men, a first step to correcting the imbalance is to establish a space free from their oppressors, men who have become accustomed to their privileged ability to exist in whatever space they choose in whatever manner they choose.

[i can already hear you jumping all over the word "oppressor" - my post is based on the premise that gender, race, and sexuality as we understand them are social constructs. when i refer to men, i don't refer to a specific man, but in the abstract - a state of man-ness]

edit: peach is dope in smrpg

[Monobrow]

how and where is Peach marketed as a role model

I'm sorry but I really hope you're kidding. The better question is, how is she not?

I'm not really sure what the point of this anecdote is

How patronizing. To a six year old, Peach was easily seen as a role model she should gravitate towards being (Halloween, dress up, role playing). Much like Barbie or a Disney princess.

Her sad and perceptive conclusion at seven years old that Peach is boring and she only wanted to be her because she was pretty and Mario's girlfriend (who she admires) should be enough to show you gow she is perceived as an instant role model to young children but has no inherent traits to retain them unless the child holds onto vapid ones as enough.

yeah let's force female characters to be a certain way because girls are only allowed to look at other girls as role models that sure isn't sexist at all

Keep the intellectual dishonesty coming.

Edit: also everything Radiowar said x10.

Edit 2: I also bought her Super Mario RPG on request for Christmas :D

Edited March 13, 2013 by Monobrow

[Melbu Frahma]

part of understanding sexism in our society has to be a willingness to see the whole picture. it's not about who's to blame, or who's having too much blame forced upon them ("try being a straight white male" is one of my favourite sentences ever, thank you). some women benefit from patriarchy, many men benefit from patriarchy; some men suffer from patriarchy, many women suffer from patriarchy. let's not make this about how many Suffering Points you have to get before we never have to talk about it again, BUT let's also not forget that we're not talking about a level playing field: when it comes to gender (a social hierarchy based on sexual difference), society favours men; when it comes to race (a social hierarchy based on physical difference), society favours white; when it comes to sexual orientation (a social hierarchy based on attraction), society favours heterosexual. these are real, demonstrable truths about our society, and relyance, it is unfortunate that you've had such unpleasant experiences, but as blunt and wrongheaded as they may seem, they almost certainly come from a lived reality in which women, people of colour, and homosexuals are told from birth and reminded of with regularity, in ways subtle and overt, that the world is not for them.

because in reality, the end goal of a movement like feminism is not equality (in the sense of achieving an "equal" social status with men, which is to say, the oppressor-class). it should be okay for a woman to say to a man that this is not a space for you. not to turn the tables on men, but to understand that if the experience of a woman is one in which her space - not only in a social sense, but in a personal sense, her body and her identity - are regularly invaded and dominated by men, a first step to correcting the imbalance is to establish a space free from their oppressors, men who have become accustomed to their privileged ability to exist in whatever space they choose in whatever manner they choose.

[i can already hear you jumping all over the word "oppressor" - my post is based on the premise that gender, race, and sexuality as we understand them are social constructs. when i refer to men, i don't refer to a specific man, but in the abstract - a state of man-ness]

edit: peach is dope in smrpg

+1 to aaaaalll of this.

[Ab56 v2 aka Ash]

yeah let's force female characters to be a certain way because girls are only allowed to look at other girls as role models that sure isn't sexist at all

No one argued this; I only laid out what the effects were. I can't say I know the best solution, but I can certainly identify the problem.

[Bleck]

I'm sorry but I really hope you're kidding.

How patronizing.

Keep the intellectual dishonesty coming.

yeah whatever mono

[Bleck]

No one argued this; I only laid out what the effects were. I can't say I know the best solution, but I can certainly identify the problem.

identifying a problem is meaningless without a proposed solution, as the existence of a solution is the most objective way to prove to the masses that the problem actually exists

[AngelCityOutlaw]

No one argued this; I only laid out what the effects were. I can't say I know the best solution, but I can certainly identify the problem.

Yeah, that's sorta the whole damn problem.

Everyone can point fingers, but no one can seem to come up with an actual solution.

[Ab56 v2 aka Ash]

You could have fooled me. Half the thread seems to refuse to agree that there is a problem.

identifying a problem is meaningless without a proposed solution, as the existence of a solution is the most objective way to prove to the masses that the problem actually exists

Identifying a problem generates discussion and invites different perspectives to look at the problem so it actually can be solved. There are innumerable ways to tackle this problem--maybe none of them perfect--but we will never hear any of them if no one talks about the issue in the first place.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Ab56 v2 aka Ash

[Vilecat]

As someone who's had a modern liberal arts education, I honestly got bored. This video is Feminism for Dummies. There were zero surprises in this video for me. I have to say watching a big long montage of woman being punched or dragged off made me realize how creepy it all is.

I'd be much more interested to see her take female video game characters who are touted as "strong" and have her tell us how they are still sexist.

I used to think everyone had a minimum of common sense. Boy was I wrong...

Also, when you work on such a big topic (all the different tropes affecting female vg characters), you gotta start with your weakest argument. At least, that's how it was taught to me.

For whoever said many women find Bayonetta a good female character, I'm ready to bet it's because there's pratically no other female options in the genre. The only other ones I can think of are that chick from DMC2 (urgh) or Nightshade from the PS2 (similar objectification of the character sexually than Bayonetta).

As for the twitter post saying that a woman came up with the idea, there's a possibility that it's been unconsciously for her to be accepted by her peers/coworkers (probably a majority of males). The post basically says the equivalent of "I'm not racist, I got black friends".

A woman may have come up with the biggest boob size for Powergirl, but that doesn't make it any less degrading. It's a known by many from the comic community that the artists kept one upping each other on who would be able to give her the biggest boobs before someone told 'em to quit it.

Also, <3 you Mono!

EDIT:

Yeah, that's sorta the whole damn problem.

Everyone can point fingers, but no one can seem to come up with an actual solution.

Actually, people have.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Vilecat

[Bleck]

You could have fooled me. Half the thread seems to refuse to agree that there is a problem.

admittedly there are some posters in here who are sexist dudes that feel threatened whenever the patriarchy is threatened, and that's not okay

Identifying a problem generates discussion and invites different perspectives to look at the problem so it actually can be solved. There are innumerable ways to tackle this problem--maybe none of them perfect--but we will never hear any of them if no one talks about the issue in the first place.

I'm not suggesting that nobody talk about it - in fact, that's what I'm trying to do by pointing out that I believe that Peach is a poor example of this particular issue, and focusing on tame by comparison Mario series is probably a waste of time when there are games that exemplify this problem in much more offensive ways (which are also easier to spot and discuss, and more difficult to ignore, making them much more efficient topics for discussion)

[Ab56 v2 aka Ash]

I think Peach is pretty problematic, and you don't. Anita probably used Peach and Zelda specifically because they do have some issues in her view and they are the biggest names in gaming. We've already laid out our reasons for why we think our respective ways, so I think we should move on and discuss other examples.

May I ask what examples of sexism and/or misogyny in gaming you think are especially bad?

Edited March 13, 2013 by Ab56 v2 aka Ash

[Bleck]

Samus' recent treatment in Other M strikes me as particularly egregious

[Monobrow]

Exactly to Ash.

Shes not a poor example though. She's a very interesting subject because she's a long running staple who has pretty much stayed the same. Her affect as part of the trope is practically perfect and so widely accepted that it baffles me why no one wants to talk about her. Blatant or not, she's part of a societal tapestry of how we perceive women and talking about where she falls and good vs bad is at the very least, a point of reference.

To you she's not important. To me she is because I've already seen first hand how her character is perceived by a child with zero notion of any of this just like how I am sure it affected me.

Also luv u Val

[relyanCe]

Samus' recent treatment in Other M strikes me as particularly egregious

this to the power of 1000

[Vilecat]

Is the burly, psychologically invulnerable man trope sexist or is it OK just because it's against men (the 'oppressor'-class).

That's an example of what the male power fantasy is. Basically it's a (rather exaggerated, most of the times) vision or version of what the average male player would like to be, what he'd be able to do in his ideal world, etc. It doesn't explicitly means that if you play as Dante from DMC that you'd like to become a demon or believe you're one.

This blog post explains it in much better terms than I can manage, mainly the part "But men are all super-buff, [...]"

I like their bingo card.(although it refers to a larger group of nerds instead of just gamers). While some of them sound quite silly, there are quite a few that I've heard before on other forums, when people were asking devs to create new characters, skins or armor sets.

[Dexie]

A woman may have come up with the biggest boob size for Powergirl, but that doesn't make it any less degrading. It's a known by many from the comic community that the artists kept one upping each other on who would be able to give her the biggest boobs before someone told 'em to quit it.

That's actually a myth, and didn't really happen.

[PriZm]

That's an example of what the male power fantasy is.

You know I've read/heard that several times but haven't found any serious study on this subject. It could be argued that it is sexist because it gives males unrealistic expectations of what they should be. Actually, how many times have you heard people calling another guy 'emo' because he was psychologically vulnerable?

I don't disagree that there are harmful tropes and general sexism in society against women. I'm just saying that I think the best way to eliminate the problem is to eliminate sexism as a concept rather than try patch the problem by trying to balance things up for women/men in some area and down in some other. It's not necessary to have suffered the consequences of a problem the most in order to suggest a solution to it.

[Vilecat]

Have you ever looked at an advertisement for lingerie, plastic surgery, or laser hair removal, and thought "I can't believe they'd try to make me feel bad for my body/being who I am!"?

That's what it's like. If you think strong female characters are rare in videogames, try realistic portrayals of effeminate men.

Actually, I do all the friggin' time. It irks me even more as a graphic designer, because I can see all the subtle and less subtle ways some of these ads use to appeal to their clients.

This would fall into an entirely different aspect of how women are portrayed in our society and how she's raised from the very start to aspire to this "feminine ideal" to any extent. I don't think there's a single woman in North America that hasn't been conditioned at all to fall into the mold. Same exact thing with men. But let's keep this can of worms for PPR, yes?

For men, there are plenty of examples. Many will be found in games where you require to use your brain and not just mindlessly slach your way through (puzzles, platformers, etc.). As for real life, I've met my share over the years. What's the point???

[relyanCe]

Actually, I do all the friggin' time. It irks me even more as a graphic designer, because I can see all the subtle and less subtle ways some of these ads use to appeal to their clients.

Hahaha, fellow graphic designer here. I clearly picked the best possible analogy.

Pretty much agree with the rest of what you said too

except that last bit. Otacon from MGS remains as the only efem-ish man i've met in vg land

Edited March 13, 2013 by relyanCe

[Vilecat]

Hahaha, fellow graphic designer here. I clearly picked the best possible analogy.

Pretty much agree with the rest of what you said too

except that last bit. Otacon from MGS remains as the only efem-ish man i've met in vg land

Yep you did!

If you can't think of any examples, just look at Japan's games. They're full of effeminate male characters. That might be one of the reasons why I don't play JRPGs as much anymore. :B

Man, this thread as gone far from discussing videogames...

Edited March 13, 2013 by Vilecat

[relyanCe]

Yep you did!

If you can't think of any examples, just look at Japan's games. They're full of effeminate male characters. That might be one of the reasons why I don't play JRPGs as much anymore. :B

Man, this thread as gone far from discussing videogames...

EDIT EDIT: i swear to god if you mention jrpgs at all my wroth will be terrible

WROTH INITIATED kidding