Metroid Prime 2 'Stir of Echoes' RESUB 11/25

[Splunkle]

ARRRRRGGGGGHHH CLIPPING ALL OVER THE PLACE. You really should know better than this, man =P

Well, to be technical, not exactly clipping, but a very similar sort of distortion nonetheless. Gander at this:

This is from the ZOMG LOUD part of your song. Essentially, you are compressing so hard that your celing, instead of being -0.3 dB, like it should be, is more like -1 dB. When a song is this loud you need every dB of space you can get. Which brings me to my second point - whyis it so GORRAM loud? I checked 10 seconds worth of the loud part of the song, and it came in at just under -6 dB RMS. WAY TOO LOUD. My loud parts are like, -10 dB RMS, tops. Now I know I prefer soft compression, but this is beyond hot - this is burnt. In an un-good way.

So, Splunkle's big huge reccomendations:

- turn that stuff down! Massively down!

- Compress less! let the mix have a bit of space

- If you want to keep the dynamic range for that explosion of noise at 1:56ish, just turn down the volume for the first part (especially on the non piano parts). Suckers will then turn their volume up, and then they get all blown away by all the awesome.

Thats all I got for now!

[big giant circles]

you're using FL right?

what exactly are you using primarily in FL? default plugins? Sytrus? I'd like to know, exactly.

I know you've gone through 2 resubs on this as well, and if you don't mind I might like to take a gander at your .flp

PM me.

[avaris]

Wow thank you guys. This was the kinda feedback I was hoping for. There were things that were bothering me about this and I felt I could do better, I just couldn't put my finger on it.

JG: I def agree with alot of your comments. I think I might run that rainstick through a granulizer and keep it goin longer. Another aspect for the first section is I don't have any "dry" elements. It makes the 'wet' and reverbed sounds stick out even more. No sense of balance. I'll prob add some dry snare hits or nylon string guitar with delay to compliment different accents in the piano. Or do them in a similar fashion to how the koto is my schala mix. I'll def cutback and rework some of the FX in and around the piano too. Yeah I def think the 'tweets' do go a little too crazy around :50. The tweets are actually a result of holding sustained notes on one the 3 pads I got going on.

Splunkle: Yeah just about everything is compressed at 99% and is set to the same compression settings. I kinda forgot to go back through and change that in my many updates. The flp file for this is pretty ugly. But having everything overcompressed and at the same settings is prob the number 1 reason for the distortion. I do have the mix set to not go above -1db. I ussually don't like to use limiters at all unless I absolutely have to. I'll even out the multiband compressors and see what comes out.

Again thanks guys, I'm def gonna step back and rework this as you guys have really pointed out the things I need to do to really make this mix kick ass.

[avaris]

you're using FL right?

what exactly are you using primarily in FL? default plugins? Sytrus? I'd like to know, exactly.

I know you've gone through 2 resubs on this as well, and if you don't mind I might like to take a gander at your .flp

PM me.

Yup I'm using FL6xxl. I've only submitted it once so far and unless I fix it up some more i think i would have to resubmit again. Here's wat I'm using:

Mainly Sytrus.

Absynth

Vanguard

A shakugachi flute sample M32shaku i think...

Kontakt 2 (for the piano)

All the percussion samples are from samplefusion

All default effects FL plugins except that I am using some absolutely crazy settings on NI-Spektral Delay for the piano.

I'm gonna be outta town for 2 days and I still gotta pack so I won't be able to get you the file till around thursday or friday. Most likely friday bc I'll clean it up some for you. Otherwise you'll be really really confused, and most likely your computer will crash or ur cpu will burn up from opening it. I have around 36 effects channels goin, but I'm only using about 15 of em.

I might make some changes on the compression before I send it to you is that cool? Or do you want it as is, how everything is set up in this version?

Thanks dude.

[avaris]

Alrighty, this weekend I decided to pick up this song again and try to finish it. I felt it was about time. Last night I went through and fixed all of the clipping, by doin some major editing with compression, volume, and FX levels. Basically I was trying to keep the same character of the sound while lowering the DB levels without using any limiters. Splunkle you were dead on right on some of ur points.

I also fixed up some lil things in the first section and added some soft hats to give it something xtra to keep the casual listener's attention. Replaced the rainstick in the middle of that section with the dark voices, fits much better.

http://swallace21.googlepages.com/StirofEchoes4.mp3

Any final comments or suggestions before I RESUB? This is the final version unless... As I said before I am down for do whatever it takes to make this song kick ass. If this is the final version, I'll rip the very first WIP of this song dating back to last july just to jog peoples memories.

Just in case anyone was wondering, there is about 0 reverb on those pads. And only slight reverb 25-35% on bout half the leads. (low freq cut at 400hz too)

[Radiowar]

Haven't heard this in awhile...

The piano from 0:20-1:25 sounds way to random, like it is playing bits and pieces of a melody but at random intervals. It feels very start-stop if that makes any sense. Also the piano sample sounds kinda detuned and crappy.

There's this instrument you're using that plays chords in the background, I can't tell what it is, but it sounds pretty weak. Also the chords it plays sound pretty random.

I think the pads you use here are too dead sounding, and they don't really establish the atmosphere I think you're going for.

I don't know if you've ever heard Moonloop by Porcupine Tree, but this track has a sort of similar vibe to it in that it is sort of ambient but with more of a groove. I think you need to establish the groove more. ie. instead of the soft hi-hats you use in the beginning, maybe put in some congas or other light percussion?

Listen to Moonloop by Porcupine Tree or something and you'll see what I mean.

[avaris]

I gotta hand it to ya hb, some of the thing u said were right. The pads sounds and timing clashed with the piano. The pads sounded great by themselves, but didn't sit well in the mix. Since then, I have reworked/replaced the pad sounds (way too much attack on the pads before). I also moved around the piano so it is now in sync with the pads. Didn't think I could keep the character of the composition and still change the timing.

I checked out that song, the intros are almost identical (same ideas!?) I seriously have never heard the song before. I'm gonna try some more rythms in there and see how they'll fit. If i can get something that works great, if not then I'm just gonna keep with the hats.

Any kind of wood block etc... would clash with the piano. I originally wanted to use wood blocks and what not for the first section but it didn't work out.

I'll have an update sometime tomorrow or late late tonight.

[Radiowar]

I used to be radiowar btw (:

[avaris]

Oh haha, didn't reconize ya since the name change and being sigless. Hows that brambles piano song coming along?

http://swallace21.googlepages.com/StirofEchoes5.mp3

OK, so yeah I don't know about the rythms in this. They're ok, I don't anything driving or nothing bc it would really detract from the piano. I might just use the hihats and turn them down.

Also any thoughts of the reverse kick right before the breakout?

Oh the overly detuned feel on the piano was from me modulating and putting LFO on the DB levels of individual freq levels, I took it off and it sits much better in the mix now. I also learned some new stuff bout Kontakt and tweaked the piano a lil bit.

[Radiowar]

Hows that brambles piano song coming along?

It's been slow but I'm still working on it...

The pads sound better, so that's good. I still think it could use a bit of percussion like a brushed snare or something, but if it detracts then don't bother.

I don't mind the reverse kick, it sounds bit like a scratch though and I think that kind of sound is out of place here. It's your call, it doesn't screw things up or anything.

What is that instrument you're using at 1:32? It sounds like a really thin xylophone. I would get a more realistic one there, if a xylophone is what you're going for. I personally think it ruins the ambience a bit and wouldn't have it come in until the part at 1:56.

Also, maybe a bit of a crescendo to 1:56 would make it a little less sudden and disjointed. Maybe have some of the pads in that section come in earlier or something.

[about:blank]

It's been a while since I've listened to this.

Beginning is pretty cool, some cool ambient sounds, and I think I hear some Sytrus in there somewhere.

I like the hi hats in the beginning of this, the song probably wouldn't suffer without them, but it's a nice touch, and I think nice touches like that go a long way in ambient music. I'm thinking the same thing about the reverse bass drum, it's a nice touch IMO so you should probably keep it.

My main problem with this is the piano at the end, maybe it's just my headphones, but it sounds like there's a lot of clipping or distortion there.

Also, during that last part, there's a wind sound that's going along with the piano, I think the ending would sound even better if you just had that wind sound keep going like 5 or 6 seconds after the piano's done, and then slowly fade out.

Also, if I were you I'd go to the judges decisions for your first sub and make sure that you took all of their suggestions and criticisms and incorporated them into your final mix. Just as a way to double check and make sure there isn't anything else left for you to do in terms of improving this, or if there's something they've noticed about the mix that we haven't. I say this because it takes a long time for mixes to get judged, so it's definitely best to be sure that this will get submitted.

All that being said, I really like this, and I look forward to hearing the next update.

[avaris]

http://swallace21.googlepages.com/StirofEchoes5.mp3

OK I am happy with it. Added a lil swell right before the reverse kick. I kept the percussion, I think it serves a basic purpose. There was some small hints of clipping in the ending piano.

BC of Kontakt the samples being played were the "high velocity" samples. So I toned down the velocity just a smidgen and now the medium ranged samples are the ones being played.

Thanks for the link blank, I read through it and I feel I have addressed all of those issues and then some.

This friggin song sure has come a long way. In my opinion alot of the sound design and ideas are pretty raw, but I like them, and they are testament for me at least of where this song has come from and the unique style and sound it has.

As far as this getting accepted on OCR, I give it a 50/50 in my honest opinion. It has great ideas and some really cool stuff but it is raw and crazy. If I was a judge I would find a song of this nature extremely hard to judge. Hopefully I can get a judge's input before I submit.

I'll be sending this off to tha sauce and vgmix when it gets back up. And if it gets rejected this time around then I'll do an infamous (OCR EDIT) and resub.

Anyways thanks guys for all the feedback these past few months, it's really made a huge difference.

[Retlaf]

I'm loving this new addition to my playlist. ^^ Keep up the great work, avaris. I don't have enough wicked ambience stuff like this.

In all honesty, I do believe this has a nice chance at getting past those judges. Good luck with it!

[Martin Penwald]

Ooooh, left/right panning, always a plus in my book.

Maybe I am just imagining things, but didn't this song have something in the background which sounded like rain? Because that was awesome...the stuff we get here in the beginning sounds rather strange to me; I can't really say what it is supposed to be.

In my opinion, the whole piano part in the beginning (up to ~1:25) seems unnecessary. Sorry to be so harsh, but it doesn't do anything for me; it only delays the start of the good stuff.

The following, more mellow part needs to be extended, as it is made of win and awesome and melody which even someone who hasn't played any new Metroid since Super Metroid recognizes.

The livelier part which is next just reinforces my opinion that the whole piano business in the beginning is nothing but a too long intro.

Nice work on the outro, although the piano sounds a bit high. Plus, you could add some seconds where we only hear the wind.

Keep working, this is some promising stuff.

[avaris]

Thanks guys, I'm a sucker for good criticism. It seems a lot of people have expressed concerns over the piano. I'm not gonna get rid of it, but I am gonna try to incorporate that haunting melody over it with a synth, to maybe give you guys something good to listen to and hold you over till the breakout section. We'll see if it works out. Oh and Penwald i accidently turned down the rain stick a lil bit, I'll turn that up a bit and also cut down on the high notes just alil on the outro a lil bit more.

Penwald you said it sounds promising, what can I do to make this friggin awesome?

[Radiowar]

These pads sound a lot nicer, so much more life in them now. I personally think it might sound better if there weren't gaps in between each chord which would help with the atmosphere of it.

The part starting at 0:18...the piano is very freeform and I think if you're going to have percussion in there it would help if there was a bit more direction to it. Not so far as putting a backbeat in or something, but maybe some little fills on toms and stuff, and not just the hi-hat, because right now it feels really random and out of sync with the piano. I'm thinking jazz kind of drums, the best example that comes to mind is the beginning of Ganon's Temple by Neskvartetten (on OCR). That's just a suggestion though, what you have is fine if it works for you.

At 2:26 there is a mallet instrument that sounds too loud, I'd turn it down.

You might get some criticism for most of the middle section being to crowded, it doesn't bother me personally but it might be something to watch out for.

[avaris]

http://swallace21.googlepages.com/StirofEchoes6melody.mp3

I overdid it on the breathing sound at the end whoops but it's in there and it's def pretty cool. Good call hb on the pads. Turned the rainstick up! I missed it soo much.

Also I worked in that haunting melody in parts over the piano, it's soft and "haunting" right now. Should I turn it up a lil? Turned down the velocity overall on the piano in both sections, but kept the volume the same. Less piercing highs but more mood and depth. I worked in some type of percussion alternating very similar to the hats, more so layered the sound in with the hats almost. It sounds like it creates a good balance, bc after a minute those hats can wear ur ears down.

I had 2 pads goin on the final final breakout..took one of em out and toned down the other. Now there's room to breathe. I also did some major cutting and volume adjustments to keep that 2nd section feeling less crowded.

Thanks for the continueing feedbacks dudes, honestly no matter what I do now this song always sounds the same to me now after listening to it so many friggin times.

Any other final tweaks?

[Splunkle]

Hmmmmmm... lets see what has changed since last time...

Pads sound much better. More Sci-fi niceness. Hi-hats are a definate plus. The transition feels more natural. Its still "hey guys, we are moving to the next section now", but much more charming about it. Nice use of LFO on that synthy backing thing, btw. And the cross-fade to the closing piano is very nice indeed. The extra minute of ambient noise after the piano stops is kinda pointless though - it needs some more presence if you want it to use it as a fade out. I'm thinking it could work, in a sort of Dreams in Red fashion. Also, that intro piano is rather liberal in terms of its treatment of the melody. I think you should be okay, because theres plenty of other times the melody gets love, but some disagree. eh.

So, to conclude, quite a bit better than the last time I heard it... version 3 or something? Anyways, I think this is really sounding cool - but do fix up those breathy outro sounds before submitting

[avaris]

Thanks dude. Yeah lots of lil adjustments all over the place. Trying to make it so anyone can enjoy it, not just fans of the specific genre. The intro piano is actually a combination of one my original tunes with the metroid. They were very similar so I decided to fuse them together.

Yeah the breathing outro sounds are actually the aftermath or residue left over from one of the instruments. That is how processed it is... It's not gonna linger that far in the final version. I'm gonna go back over this one more time with some EQ'ing to see if I can't get it to sound more refined what not and then that'll be that.