Mario Bros 2 - Character Select

[fxsnowy]

Hello everyone, this is a remix I started a few years ago, kind of forgot about it until recently, so I decided to keep working on it. It is an oriental ReMix of the "choose your character" theme from mario bros 2.

 

Any feedback is appreciated!

 

Source : 

 

WIP 1

 

--Edit--

 

- Added better and smoother transitions

- Removed a few pitch bends and mordents

- Hard panned a few parts

- More varied Drums

 

WIP 2

 

--Edit--

 

tagged as Mod-Review

 

--Edit--

 

Got a lot of feedback so gonna revert to WIP and keep working on it

 

--Edit--

 

CURRENT VERSION

 

back to Mod Review, here are a list of things I did:

 

- More varied and dynamic bass line

- Relaxed the timing and velocities of plucked instruments, more strumming

- Added small variations to melody

- More cohesive reverb

- EQed piano and brought volume up so it sticks out more

- Added Pizzicato to one part

- More humanized flute and erhu through volume automation

- Brought bass up a couple dbs.

- More realistic pitch bends done with pitch automation instead of samples

 

I always feel like my arrangements come out quieter than other people's. Probably because I don't compress as much as I should..

[MrKyle]

fxsnowy, I really like this.  The phrasing is really nice with the intentional pauses and breaks.  The Eastern instrumentation is well-chosen in my opinion and the arrangement is unique.  I like the very clean and clear presentation of all of the instruments timbres.

 

The erhu (is that Mini Erhu I hear?) was the only instrument that stood out in a bad way.  The nong/vibrato was distracting.  The shaker was a bit unnatural sounding, perhaps too random and too much variance instead of organized writing.

 

Keep up the great work.  This will be a winner for sure.

[fxsnowy]

fxsnowy, I really like this.  The phrasing is really nice with the intentional pauses and breaks.  The Eastern instrumentation is well-chosen in my opinion and the arrangement is unique.  I like the very clean and clear presentation of all of the instruments timbres.

 

The erhu (is that Mini Erhu I hear?) was the only instrument that stood out in a bad way.  The nong/vibrato was distracting.  The shaker was a bit unnatural sounding, perhaps too random and too much variance instead of organized writing.

 

Keep up the great work.  This will be a winner for sure.

 

Hey MrKyle thanks alot! Glad you liked it.

 

A few questions, does the erhu stand out in a bad way because of its sound in general, or only because of the vibrato? Also when you say the shaker is too random I am confused, because the shaker only does a a regular steady 4/4 beat. Can you give me a specific time where it sounds too random?

[Anorax]

I didn't hear anything sticking out with the erhu (unless you refer to the section with quick, successive key changes), but the mordents, to me at least, felt a bit excessive at times (although at others it worked just fine). Maybe I'm just being a picky person.

[MrKyle]

Hey MrKyle thanks alot! Glad you liked it.

 

A few questions, does the erhu stand out in a bad way because of its sound in general, or only because of the vibrato? Also when you say the shaker is too random I am confused, because the shaker only does a a regular steady 4/4 beat. Can you give me a specific time where it sounds too random?

 

Sorry!  Everytime I play it through I like this composition, so to me, that says a lot.  

Regarding the shaker, it's the intro few seconds before it finds rhythm.  The randomness is in the velocity, the volume of the shaking, and again, this is to me, it feels a bit too dynamic.  Is there a reverb on it?  I think it muddles it a bit in the beginning, but sits better after that.  My random comment was referring to the velocity, not the timing, my bad.

 

The erhu generally sounds pretty good. The vibrato in the section after the quieter break (short, 4-5 note runs?) is what jumped out.  But!  Let me say that if you are going for something more playful and toy-like (like many Mario themes are) then it totally works.  I guess coming out of the quieter, more delicate section preceding those runs, my mind is expecting something similar.  So, since I don't know what exactly you're going for, I can't really say.  If your goal is a more natural timbre, I would say ease off the vibrato a hair.  But, overall, this a great piece.

 

[fxsnowy]

I didn't hear anything sticking out with the erhu (unless you refer to the section with quick, successive key changes), but the mordents, to me at least, felt a bit excessive at times (although at others it worked just fine). Maybe I'm just being a picky person.

Yea I agree I kind of overused it

[fxsnowy]

Bump

 

Added finished version

[Anorax]

Really enjoy this version!  If you're wanting to submit to OCR in the (hopefully near) future, you should probably set it as "Mod Review" so that a moderator can give you feedback so that it can be OCR-ready.

[fxsnowy]

Really enjoy this version!  If you're wanting to submit to OCR in the (hopefully near) future, you should probably set it as "Mod Review" so that a moderator can give you feedback so that it can be OCR-ready.

 

Thanks, yup gonna wait a couple days and then set as Mod-review

[MindWanderer]

Really nice!  I've tried for this style of instrumentation before myself and always fell flat.  May I ask what samples/soundfonts/VSTi's you used?  Especially what sounds like a guzheng (the main lead), I've been looking for a decent one of those for a while.

 

The flute about 1/3 of the way in is weaker than the rest of the instruments, and sounds more fake.  The piano is odd--one honkey-tonk instrument among a bunch of Asian ones.  There's a short bit at the end that seems thematically out of place as well.  Otherwise I like this a lot.

[fxsnowy]

Really nice!  I've tried for this style of instrumentation before myself and always fell flat.  May I ask what samples/soundfonts/VSTi's you used?  Especially what sounds like a guzheng (the main lead), I've been looking for a decent one of those for a while.

 

The flute about 1/3 of the way in is weaker than the rest of the instruments, and sounds more fake.  The piano is odd--one honkey-tonk instrument among a bunch of Asian ones.  There's a short bit at the end that seems thematically out of place as well.  Otherwise I like this a lot.

 

Thanks, I used the "GarageBand jam pack: world music" for all the oriental instruments. I know what you are thinking, sounds lame lol, but there are a lot of really cool and realistic sounding instruments. The only bad thing is that it is only for GarageBand/Logic Pro. 

 

When you say the piano is odd, do you mean the tone or should it be replaced completely? I was trying to create a bit of contrast between the Asian instruments and the regular sounding bland piano.

 

Also can you give me an exact time to the bit that sounds off that you are referring to? 

[timaeus222]

Koto-ish

When the koto (or whatever it was) first comes in, at about 0:00 - 0:08, the velocities just register as stiff to me; did you adjust the magnitudes and quantization? It feels quite on-the-grid, and it's especially noticeable because (and when) you're playing chords. I usually write the bottom chord note coming first, and the top chord note coming last. If the person is plucking two notes at the same time on different strings, then I just slightly offset the timings in whichever direction since one finger might just be faster than the other. Consider checking this stiffness in other spots for the (presumed) koto---even a few ms of offset matters, and it really helps to adjust the velocity magnitudes on each chord note, too. I tend to have the first note quietest and last note loudest on a strummed chord, and for plucking two notes at the same time on different strings, they may be close in velocity more often than not.

 

Also, I'm not sure how the ADSR envelope for the koto is set up (or if you can look into that at all), but assuming the release is low and the decay and sustain are high, perhaps if you want to minimize the amount of times the (seemingly pre-recorded) vibrato is heard, I would guess that you can just shorten the length of the sequenced note and it should stop the note before it reaches the pre-recorded vibrato in the sample. With a sample like that, I would try to minimize the amount of pre-recorded vibrato that ends up playing so that it doesn't sound so fake. Ideally, if possible, you should adjust the ADSR envelope so that the vibrato hardly ever plays, and then record your own vibrato manually using pitch bend "event edits" or "automation clips". That way it's more human. By the way, with "pre-recorded vibrato", I mean "baked into the sample".

 

(was that "stitched" sequencing of more than one instrument instance?)

 

-----

 

Erhu

I agree that the erhu doesn't have much realism; its slow attack coupled with its same-y tone makes it stick out as lacking variation in tone (through round robins). I also find that ride sample that comes soon after, a bit distracting (the one panned rather far right).

 

-----

 

Big Picture / tl;dr (major: reverb, timing stiffness, velocity magnitude sameness, vibrato sameness)

Overall, this kind of reminds me of the Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon OST (great OST). This atmosphere works pretty well in terms of the instruments chosen. Still kinda rough around the edges on getting the instruments to sound realistic (various stiff areas in the timings, especially with chords, and the amount of times a seemingly pre-recorded vibrato plays). Another good idea is to keep the instrumentation sounding like it's all in the same room. I think the ideas are pretty good so far, but I also think, if you have the options available, refining the cohesion between reverb tones (whether the reverb is primarily low-mids, midrange, or treble reflections, where the low cut and high cut of the reverb "wet signal threshold" are, etc) would help. Unfortunately I think it's something you'd have to isolate in your DAW and listen for, and it's not something I can hear in the full context since it's pretty subtle.

 

Generally, low-mids reflection adds low end ambience, midrange reflections may sound a bit metallic if overdone, and treble reflections should sound "hissy" if overdone. The low and high cut basically jointly mark the frequency range that the reverb will affect. Everything below the low cut frequency won't be affected, etc.

[fxsnowy]

First of all huge thanks for writing this detailed criticism, I appreciate it a lot!

 

Koto-ish

When the koto (or whatever it was) first comes in, at about 0:00 - 0:08, the velocities just register as stiff to me; did you adjust the magnitudes and quantization? It feels quite on-the-grid, and it's especially noticeable because (and when) you're playing chords. I usually write the bottom chord note coming first, and the top chord note coming last. If the person is plucking two notes at the same time on different strings, then I just slightly offset the timings in whichever direction since one finger might just be faster than the other. Consider checking this stiffness in other spots for the (presumed) koto---even a few ms of offset matters, and it really helps to adjust the velocity magnitudes on each chord note, too. I tend to have the first note quietest and last note loudest on a strummed chord, and for plucking two notes at the same time on different strings, they may be close in velocity more often than not.

 

Yeah that is something that was bothering me, the fake sound of the instrument when the chords are played. Gonna try to offset a tiny bit like you said and adjust velocities

 

 

Also, I'm not sure how the ADSR envelope for the koto is set up (or if you can look into that at all), but assuming the release is low and the decay and sustain are high, perhaps if you want to minimize the amount of times the (seemingly pre-recorded) vibrato is heard, I would guess that you can just shorten the length of the sequenced note and it should stop the note before it reaches the pre-recorded vibrato in the sample. With a sample like that, I would try to minimize the amount of pre-recorded vibrato that ends up playing so that it doesn't sound so fake. Ideally, if possible, you should adjust the ADSR envelope so that the vibrato hardly ever plays, and then record your own vibrato manually using pitch bend "event edits" or "automation clips". That way it's more human. By the way, with "pre-recorded vibrato", I mean "baked into the sample".

 

(was that "stitched" sequencing of more than one instrument instance?)

 

You know, I always hate using ornamentations that are just samples of the software instrument, because it gives me very little freedom. I never thought of that, using pitch bends through automation to recreate vibrato, gonna try that out as well. What do you mean by stitched sequencing? 

 

 

Erhu

I agree that the erhu doesn't have much realism; its slow attack coupled with its same-y tone makes it stick out as lacking variation in tone (through round robins). I also find that ride sample that comes soon after, a bit distracting (the one panned rather far right).

 

Weird I actually think the erhu does sound realistic. I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say lacking variation in tone, wouldn't varying the tone make it less realistic?

 

 

Another good idea is to keep the instrumentation sounding like it's all in the same room. I think the ideas are pretty good so far, but I also think, if you have the options available, refining the cohesion between reverb tones (whether the reverb is primarily low-mids, midrange, or treble reflections, where the low cut and high cut of the reverb "wet signal threshold" are, etc) would help. Unfortunately I think it's something you'd have to isolate in your DAW and listen for, and it's not something I can hear in the full context since it's pretty subtle.

 

Generally, low-mids reflection adds low end ambience, midrange reflections may sound a bit metallic if overdone, and treble reflections should sound "hissy" if overdone. The low and high cut basically jointly mark the frequency range that the reverb will affect. Everything below the low cut frequency won't be affected, etc.

 

 

Reverb is one of my weak points. I usually just pick a different reverb preset I like for every instrument and set the wetness accordingly. I read this is the wrong way to do it. I read the reverb should go through a bus, which I guess means only one type of reverb should be in the song, with different varying levels on every instrument. Is this right? And if so is this why the reverb tones don't sound cohesive?

[timaeus222]

First of all huge thanks for writing this detailed criticism, I appreciate it a lot!

[...]

You know, I always hate using ornamentations that are just samples of the software instrument, because it gives me very little freedom. I never thought of that, using pitch bends through automation to recreate vibrato, gonna try that out as well. What do you mean by stitched sequencing? 

[...]

Weird I actually think the erhu does sound realistic. I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say lacking variation in tone, wouldn't varying the tone make it less realistic?

[...]

Reverb is one of my weak points. I usually just pick a different reverb preset I like for every instrument and set the wetness accordingly. I read this is the wrong way to do it. I read the reverb should go through a bus, which I guess means only one type of reverb should be in the song, with different varying levels on every instrument. Is this right? And if so is this why the reverb tones don't sound cohesive?

No problem!

 

Stitched sequencing is when you use multiple instances of an instrument, each sourcing from different sets of samples, and you spread out your notes over the set of instrument instances so that some MIDI channels play sustain, some play vibrato, etc. But maybe you're not doing that.

 

Variation in tone is a bit subtle; there's something called Round Robins in sample libraries, which basically means a set of samples of the same note is rotated so that not the same sample is played every single time. If the same sample is played multiple times in a row, I tend to call it "machine-gun-like". The variation in tone is not always obvious.

 

Reverb can sound in various ways; there are more metallic tones, more ambient tones, and so on, and it depends on the balance between low-mids, midrange, and treble reflections (if those settings are available). If the difference in tone is too drastic for example (and this is exaggerated), maybe an instrument sounds like it's in a closet, but another instrument using a different reverb instance sounds like it's in an auditorium.

[MindWanderer]

Thanks, I used the "GarageBand jam pack: world music" for all the oriental instruments. I know what you are thinking, sounds lame lol, but there are a lot of really cool and realistic sounding instruments. The only bad thing is that it is only for GarageBand/Logic Pro.

Bah.  Well, thanks anyway.

 

When you say the piano is odd, do you mean the tone or should it be replaced completely? I was trying to create a bit of contrast between the Asian instruments and the regular sounding bland piano.

Oh, it contrasts all right. I found it jarring.

 

Also can you give me an exact time to the bit that sounds off that you are referring to?

I can't figure out how to get exact times in tindeck.

[Anorax]

I can't figure out how to get exact times in tindeck.

Grab a stopwatch

[timaeus222]

You can download it and load it into an audio editor. It should display the waveform amplitude vs. time.

[fxsnowy]

No problem!

 

Stitched sequencing is when you use multiple instances of an instrument, each sourcing from different sets of samples, and you spread out your notes over the set of instrument instances so that some MIDI channels play sustain, some play vibrato, etc. But maybe you're not doing that.

 

Variation in tone is a bit subtle; there's something called Round Robins in sample libraries, which basically means a set of samples of the same note is rotated so that not the same sample is played every single time. If the same sample is played multiple times in a row, I tend to call it "machine-gun-like". The variation in tone is not always obvious.

 

Reverb can sound in various ways; there are more metallic tones, more ambient tones, and so on, and it depends on the balance between low-mids, midrange, and treble reflections (if those settings are available). If the difference in tone is too drastic for example (and this is exaggerated), maybe an instrument sounds like it's in a closet, but another instrument using a different reverb instance sounds like it's in an auditorium.

 

I have always wondered  how to make midi snare hits in quick succession sound more realistic, Round Robins seems like the answer. I wish all sample libraries had this.

 

I stitched the fast same note plucking from the Chinese Ruan Moon Guitar with the regular notes played by the Ghuzeng. Was worried that it is too noticeable and distracting, might need to fix it.

[fxsnowy]

I can't figure out how to get exact times in tindeck.

 

Yeah didn't realize tindeck has no time indicator on the music files, I'm going to start using soundlcoud for WIPs.  https://soundcloud.com/fxsnowy/mb2-character-select/s-UmPCI

[MindWanderer]

Yeah didn't realize tindeck has no time indicator on the music files, I'm going to start using soundlcoud for WIPs.  https://soundcloud.com/fxsnowy/mb2-character-select/s-UmPCI

Thanks! That makes it easier.

... but, actually, listening to it again, it's basically just the piano that I object to again.

[Skrypnyk]

The piano playing @ 2:08 is really quiet

 

actually the piano in general is rather quiet, didn't notice it the first time around @ 1:05

 

The woodwind (or string?) @ 0:44 sounds dry and exposed compared to everything else as well.

 

and that's about it.  Nothing really packs a solid punch, but this is a nice little ditty.

[fxsnowy]

The piano playing @ 2:08 is really quiet

 

actually the piano in general is rather quiet, didn't notice it the first time around @ 1:05

 

The woodwind (or string?) @ 0:44 sounds dry and exposed compared to everything else as well.

 

and that's about it.  Nothing really packs a solid punch, but this is a nice little ditty.

 

Thanks Skrypnyk for the criticism. 

[fxsnowy]

back to Mod Review, here are a list of things I did:

 

- More varied and dynamic bass line

- Relaxed the timing and velocities of plucked instruments, more strumming

- Added small variations to melody

- More cohesive reverb

- EQed piano and brought volume up so it sticks out more

- Added Pizzicato to one part

- More humanized flute and erhu through volume automation

- Brought bass up a couple dbs.

- More realistic pitch bends done with pitch automation instead of samples

 

I always feel like my arrangements come out quieter than other people's. Probably because I don't compress as much as I should..

[timaeus222]

Well, you don't have to have master track compression to get louder results. I just use a limiter that allows me to boost to near 0 dB without overcompression (TLs-Pocket Limiter).

[Gario]

MOD REVIEW

Eclectic! I think if I were to sum this one up in one word, that would be the word I'd pick. Arrangement-wise, you have it going on! It's a pretty short source, so I'm glad you were able to do as much with it as you did. Kudos! The production is pretty good, overall, too. If anything stands out in this as a possible issue, it would be the slow strings in the background (like at 1:04) - they just sound mechanical and low quality, in comparison to the rest of the instruments. The swells all sound the same, which make them stand out in a way that isn't good. When going for the effect myself, I tend to use a straight set of string samples and swell the volume manually using volume envelopes - custom swells fix that issue right up!

Other than that, honestly the track sounds pretty good. Good luck with it on the panel!