YoshiBlade Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I'm saying that assuming each episode is going to be watered down and stretched a la The Hobbit series is still unfounded right now. I'm also not happy that it's being split up. The only reason I'm reticent about embracing FF7 2.0 is for a reason you point out. I don't think we've seen any titles in a long time that had insanely large fanbases waiting to buy them. This is game has fostered expectations that, I'm my opinion, can not be met. Will it do 1 Billion in revenue? Yes. So from a business point of view this game will be one of there greatest accomplishments. It's true I'm using mostly movies to justify my concerns, but this isn't about Film vs Video Games, it's about the nature of art and when it should or should not be revisited/revised/remade/reworked/rewritten however it's labeled. Star War Re-releases, The Star Wars Prequels, The Hobbit, Most Reboots( with rare exception). With film we have a rich history of venerated characters and stories, video games are still comparatively nascent, really only gaining artistic acceptance in the last few years, so it's hard to draw a 1to1 comparison. I'm just trying to point out that Companies like SE only know Sales...It doesn't matter if Vagrant Story was amazing or that it was relatively unknown or that it should not be left on the ash heap of history...they know Sales and when FF7 releases and prints money, that's what they'll know and respond to Nostalgia = Cash, and not Fresh Ideas = Cash...I just can't shake the Feeling this is going to be FF13, but with a FF7 skin. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, I just hope I have a valid point, if it this is more about FF7 enthusiasm I'll quietly sit back and join up with the fun....and for the record I do concede this game does look very entertaining, However I will always ruminate on the motivations, the means and the ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Strader Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I do, yeah. Was super reliable until the US release of Saga Frontier. :'-( Yeah I think I had the same exact experience :3 OceansAndrew 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 The only reason I'm reticent about embracing FF7 2.0 is for a reason you point out. This is game has fostered expectations that, I'm my opinion, can not be met. Will it do 1 Billion in revenue? Yes. So from a business point of view this game will be one of there greatest accomplishments. It's true I'm using mostly movies to justify my concerns, but this isn't about Film vs Video Games, it's about the nature of art and when it should or should not be revisited/revised/remade/reworked/rewritten however it's labeled. Star War Re-releases, The Star Wars Prequels, The Hobbit, Most Reboots( with rare exception). With film we have a rich history of venerated characters and stories, video games are still comparatively nascent, really only gaining artistic acceptance in the last few years, so it's hard to draw a 1to1 comparison. I'm just trying to point out that Companies like SE only know Sales...It doesn't matter if Vagrant Story was amazing or that it was relatively unknown or that it should not be left on the ash heap of history...they know Sales and when FF7 releases and prints money, that's what they'll know and respond to Nostalgia = Cash, and not Fresh Ideas = Cash...I just can't shake the Feeling this is going to be FF13, but with a FF7 skin. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, I just hope I have a valid point, if it this is more about FF7 enthusiasm I'll quietly sit back and join up with the fun....and for the record I do concede this game does look very entertaining, However I will always ruminate on the motivations, the means and the ends. Every long-awaited/anticipated game will be faced with unrealistic expectations though. Also, all of your points here apply to movies just as well. What do you mean by "the nature of art and when it should or should not be revisited"? I don't think there is any sort of objective criteria you can use to say whether or not something should be re-done aside from "because they want to". While I suppose it's irrelevant, I'd also say games still aren't considered "art" by most. Roger Ebert had a lot of butthurt people trying to disprove his claims back in 2010 that video games aren't art because they're about a challenge that determines a winner or loser and logical rules exist not out of creativity, but to keep the challenge fair. Everything else that is "art" has no winners or losers and no rules, but a game by definition, does. It didn't help that most of his detractors' methods of attempting to disprove him on this point only strengthened his argument. but really, all the entertainment industries are about is money. It's easy for fans to complain and demand for "fresh ideas" and "creativity" when they're not the ones footing the bill - you've gotta do what you have every reason to believe will make money. I don't believe that Square ever cared about FFVII for any sort of artistic reasons any more than Disney cares about Star Wars for artistic reasons. So I'd say a 1 : 1 comparison is easy to make - It's always about money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoshiBlade Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Also, all of your points here apply to movies just as well. What do you mean by "the nature of art and when it should or should not be revisited"? I'll let you decide if you want to dredge up my old posts....I claim no objective superiority over the Pro-FF7 remake individuals, but here are some interesting tie bits to consider. Some more serious than others... They don't have the full episode, but the episode makes a good point. http://southpark.cc.com/clips/153556/re-release-of-episode-1-south-park#source=473fef35-48a7-434c-afc6-207874c7f1a3:eda80b2a-ed00-11e0-aca6-0026b9414f30&position=8&sort=playlist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus Basically we shouldn't reward nostalgia, because you can get caught in a feedback loop of rehashes/redo/revisions...Can you deny were now encroaching a tipping point in nostalgia driven media where will reach a point where a new idea, that one day could be something we look back on fondly, will be denied existence? I fear a cultural feedback loop, one where fresh ideas will be given no time to be shiny in our rose colored glasses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I think the change in combat system is a sufficient middle finger to nostalgia-seekers. YoshiBlade 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteo Xavier Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I do, yeah. Was super reliable until the US release of Saga Frontier. :'-( Up yours, weinerman! I'm playing that game these days right now and it's probably the best Sa*Ga game I've played since the first one for Chrust's sakes. Speak only of your experiences, lest ye but for the grace of God go the way of Unllimited Sa*Ga yourself! (Part of this is based on my pastor's sermon of Advent) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I'll let you decide if you want to dredge up my old posts....I claim no objective superiority over the Pro-FF7 remake individuals, but here are some interesting tie bits to consider. Some more serious than others... They don't have the full episode, but the episode makes a good point. http://southpark.cc.com/clips/153556/re-release-of-episode-1-south-park#source=473fef35-48a7-434c-afc6-207874c7f1a3:eda80b2a-ed00-11e0-aca6-0026b9414f30&position=8&sort=playlist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus Basically we shouldn't reward nostalgia, because you can get caught in a feedback loop of rehashes/redo/revisions...Can you deny were now encroaching a tipping point in nostalgia driven media where will reach a point where a new idea, that one day could be something we look back on fondly, will be denied existence? I fear a cultural feedback loop, one where fresh ideas will be given no time to be shiny in our rose colored glasses. I can't watch that video because I live in Canada. As for the ship of Theseus paradox, I'd repeat Neblix's sentiments of how this meant to be its own thing born of the source material. Nostalgia has always been a best-seller and always will be. Almost all of Disney's most famous films are adaptations of popular Germanic fairytales or old novels that have been eternally retold. It's safe to assume that anyone who had grown up with those stories probably saw those Disney movies through nostalgia goggles. There is plenty of great new stuff being made all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koriantor Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Almost all of Disney's most famous films are adaptations of popular Germanic fairytales or old novels that have been eternally retold. Every story ever made is a variation of some other story. The same goes for music, art, or any creative work. The details are what vary and make a piece of work "new." Nostalgia sells, but that's not all that is considered. I agree with what AngelCityOutlaw said. I mean, take Tangled, Tangled takes Rapunzel and makes it its own. Tangled is still very much Rapunzel, but it has a considerably different flavor, which prevents it from being "Another telling of Rapunzel" while still keeping the core themes and narrative intact. FF7's remake has a rich background to pull from. I'd say that there's plenty of room for a successful take on the original story, while being true to the themes of the first. The new FF7 will be different, but that doesn't mean it won't be good. Just different. Whether or not it will sell well is something else entirely. I get the feeling that fans will buy it regardless of how it's received. The Hobbit trilogy sold well and those movies were major flops for hardcore fans. I went to see all 3 movies even though I had issues with them. If I had a PS4, I'd probably get FF7's remake, even if it was reviewed poorly because the idea of wandering around a setting as interesting as FF7's with modern graphics is really appealing. Nabeel Ansari 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Native Jovian Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I see you eyeing the quote "fundamental gameplay concepts", but I maintain fundamentally it's a gameplay concept that did not serve the game well and placed a barrier on the immersion. So I see changing it is a plus, and I see that change is allowed in something called a remake and not really in something called an update or remaster (and remaster has very specific technical definition). So you're quoting a dictionary definition at me, then ignoring the part where that definition undercuts your own argument by saying "whatever, the new version will be better anyway". Well, I'm convinced. /s The bottom line is I don't think they were dishonest about how they portrayed this game (they said from the very beginning combat wouldn't be the same), so I don't see people having a right to feel like they've been lied to. Anyone who feels like they're being lied to has just not been keeping up. I'm not suggesting that people should feel like they've been lied to or tricked. I'm just saying that it's legitimate to be disappointed that what they're getting (a FFVII remake that plays like the original FFVII) is not what they're getting. And I don't see a right to be angry at all, since beyond feeling like you were lied to, it's now purely just "I want the game to be my way and there's no point in them making it if it's not going to be my way because the game is pointless if it's not complete the same as the original just with better graphics even though there are swaths of people who hated the old way and the entire current generation doesn't have the patience for menu turn-based combat" And what you're saying is "I want the game to be my way and I'm happy because it's going to be my way and no one else has the right to be disappointed because it's going to be my way and that's a good thing because it's my way". I'm not saying that you have to agree with my opinion about the game. I'm just expressing my own opinion about it. You're confusing "I'm disappointed that it's not going to be this way" with "I demand that it be this way and Squeenix is evilbadwrong for doing it any other way!". Changing the combat style is a miniscule aspect if you consider that they're projecting to retain the narrative (even quoted the guy saying that the Cloud cross-dressing scene is going to be in there). Sure it changes the genre but I guarantee you that most of the reason people like FFVII is because of its characters and its music, not because it has some meaningful iteration of turn-based combat and they won't actually really care if now it's more immersive and they have more direct controls of their favorite bad-asses with cooler camera work.. See, this is the part where you go back to stating your opinion as fact. Stop doing that. The gameplay aspect of Final Fantasy is important to me. I don't think it's an improvement to go from FFVII's original system to something more like modern FF games. You're free to disagree, but telling me that "I won't actually really care" is dumb and wrong and you should stop saying it. You're trying to imply that I'm functionally saying you're being unreasonable. There's no need to, because I explicitly think you're being unreasonable. I think being mad that Squeenix is making a game in a way that you don't want them to is unreasonable, since 1) it's not your IP, 2) you have not already bought into the game yet, and 3) they have not at all lied to you about what it's going to be. (They're not destroying something you own, you're not losing money, and they're directly telling you what they're doing long before you have the chance to buy it and be disappointed) Because being disappointed with something I thought I might enjoy turning out to be something I don't think I'll enjoy is unreasonable. /s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Whether or not it will sell well is something else entirely. I get the feeling that fans will buy it regardless of how it's received. Yeah, I doubt that fans will be swayed by critical reception of the game. If die-hard fans don't buy it, it's a safe bet it will probably be due to changes they're unhappy with. They'll be the in the minority as usual, though. I had no intention of buying and didn't even care about the game until seeing the new gameplay trailer as I'm not a fan of FFVII. However, the new footage has me intrigued and winning over new customers is probably a greater priority for them than pleasing long-time fans, since like you say, fans will buy it regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Various ways of "I was only saying I was disappointed" You can't ask "what is even the point of them making this game if the combat is different" (which is, by the way, a silly question) and then try to fall back on "I'm merely expressing my disappointment". It's a silly question and deserves scrutiny. The point of making the game is to capitalize on the branding and to make boatloads of money. Changing the combat system doesn't run counter to that goal in any meaningful capacity. The answer to the question is obvious; so why are you asking it? It's not because you don't know the answer, it's because you think and have said several times that not having it be turn-based makes it not even "somewhat similar" and disqualifies it from being the remake that Squeenix promised. Even though no reasonable person who knew what FFVII was would look at this trailer and think "it's not somewhat similar to FFVII". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Strader Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Why are you guys fighting? Silly. Garpocalypse and Koriantor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Why are you guys fighting? Silly. I've been feeling edgy these days Garpocalypse 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garpocalypse Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Why are you guys fighting? Silly. It seems that the posts in the OCR forums have become little more than displays of pleonasm methinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoshiBlade Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Why are you guys fighting? Silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Native Jovian Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Even though no reasonable person who knew what FFVII was would look at this trailer and think "it's not somewhat similar to FFVII". You're silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 turn based number simulators suck anyways AngelCityOutlaw 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoshiBlade Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Nostalgia has always been a best-seller and always will be. Almost all of Disney's most famous films are adaptations of popular Germanic fairytales or old novels that have been eternally retold. It's safe to assume that anyone who had grown up with those stories probably saw those Disney movies through nostalgia goggles. I agree, art is born of art. TS Eliot said "Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal." The limiting factor of Grimm"s Fairy Tales made it ripe for reproduction i.e. foreign language, obscurity, difficultly transmiting through societies. Disney synthesized something fresh, from a relatively unknown source and added some elements and removed others, presto, good art. FF7 was not culturally locked, it is not obscure, and was not released and then forgotten. Great as it was, you remake things that had strong qualities, but fell victim to a limiting factor, but should be known. Otherwise we just get games, devoid of art, just toys really, leading to my next point Whether or not it will sell well is something else entirely. I get the feeling that fans will buy it regardless of how it's received. This is almost certainly going to be a success, and keeping mind SE vision is based mostly on sales, there is almost no reason to not then focus on FF8 Remake, then FF9, then take your pick which game they're going to remake/release, in place of a more risky new IP, possibly what might have been an FF7 for a new generation . An FF7 Remake is not a bad thing I'm just trying to point out it may set a dangerous precedent, one we should be fully aware of and the direction we're consciously choosing to take our pastime. Video Games are Art, they should be given due diligence by it's patrons, us. "Entertainment gives you a predicable pleasure...Art leads to transformation" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 I think tying ourselves to projected definitions and rules about what we should be doing completely circumvents the point of art in the first place. Art is about doing what you want and the evaluation of art boils down to who the hell cares what you're doing. If Squeenix is making something and it has some aspect (design choice, motivation, etc.) that makes you not care about it, that's not "dangerous", it's not "bad for the medium" or anything, they're just doing what they want to do, making lots of money doing it. Video games aren't *just art*. They're *software products* and have to meet standards of operation. It's the only medium that requires an insanely heavy amount of mathematical implementation. Ultimately shooting for putting video games on the same level as film and books and trying to evaluate them in a similar manner is silly. But even so, many if not most people don't give a damn if their media in any form is artistically valid or insightful or necessary. They watch or play something if they like it, if they enjoy it, or resonate with it. And that's okay. If the FFVII remake is re-using old IP, then... great. If people like it, it's a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Strader Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 people arguing about the silliest of things and all im worried about is whether it will rightfully be rated M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 people arguing about the silliest of things and all im worried about is whether it will rightfully be rated M I really doubt it. Why would FFVII need to be M-rated anyway? Cloud doesn't need to drop any F-bombs anymore than Aeris(th?) needs to get cut in half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garpocalypse Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Aeris(th?) Seriously this is the question that needs to be answered with the remake. In fact I hope they make an entire, darkly humored 12 hour quest in the game based around this one discrepancy. All I know is my launch day copy had Aeris's name as Aeris... ...and I will fight anyone to the death to defend it! There can be no other! ...even though I know that "su" when either starting or ending a word is commonly translated as a "th" in romanized kana. ... so really, when/if you think about it, both names are correct at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 it's Aerith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Anyone who played Crisis Core knows it's Aerith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garpocalypse Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Anyone who played Crisis Core knows it's Aerith There's reason to suspect this was a translation error and that it was actually supposed to be "Aeris". Which is what her name actually is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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