DusK Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Apparently, the McCree nerf will be to Fan the Hammer, and D.Va will have her mobility buffed rather than her damage. These would be good changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted June 4, 2016 Author Share Posted June 4, 2016 I lol'd pretty hard at this Garpocalypse and Kat 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkeSword Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 16 hours ago, Bleck said: footsucking sperglord insists on playing as his underpowered starcraft waifu This is unnecessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DusK Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 13 hours ago, DarkeSword said: This is unnecessary. sorry I was very mad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 Just had the shittiest shitfest of a game. Attack on Gibraltar. Defense team had 4 torbs, a Symettra and a Mercy. MOLTEN CORE! MOLTEN CORE! MOLTEN CORE! MOLTEN CORE! HEROES NEVER DIE! MOLTEN CORE! MOLTEN CORE! First game I have ever ragequit from. I'll gladly take the leaver penalty over that bullshit. Coordinated attacks and proper hero swapping to take out the turrets and break through resulted in more turrets popping up in their place, because the amount of effort it takes to remove one is far greater than the few hammer strikes to get one working. The Mercy couldn't be reached because 4 turrets auto-aiming, and it was pretty much impossible to break through when they had enough unmanned firepower to break through Reinhardt's shield in seconds. Garpocalypse 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_NutS Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 1 minute ago, Kat said: Just had the shittiest shitfest of a game. Attack on Gibraltar. Defense team had 4 torbs, a Symettra and a Mercy. MOLTEN CORE! MOLTEN CORE! MOLTEN CORE! MOLTEN CORE! HEROES NEVER DIE! MOLTEN CORE! MOLTEN CORE! First game I have ever ragequit from. I'll gladly take the leaver penalty over that bullshit. Coordinated attacks and proper hero swapping to take out the turrets and break through resulted in more turrets popping up in their place, because the amount of effort it takes to remove one is far greater than the few hammer strikes to get one working. The Mercy couldn't be reached because 4 turrets auto-aiming, and it was pretty much impossible to break through when they had enough unmanned firepower to break through Reinhardt's shield in seconds. This is why I hope there will be hero limit in competitive. Sure this strat won't work in very high elos, but in low and mid tier ranks (and casual) stacking torbs and bastions is almost always a free win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 6 minutes ago, Sir_NutS said: This is why I hope there will be hero limit in competitive. Sure this strat won't work in very high elos, but in low and mid tier ranks (and casual) stacking torbs and bastions is almost always a free win. I think the biggest issue was that Gibraltar's first stretch is cramped(on the attacker side, that is) and there's pretty much nowhere for Widowmaker to snipe the turrets down, as she'll always be in range of them. Even if you get a good team to distract the turrets, you still have to deal with the rest of the enemy team who is free to harass your flankers while the turrets deal with everyone else. A couple Junkrats helped out, but still couldn't push through the turrets with their entire team harassing us on top of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garpocalypse Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 2 hours ago, Kat said: Just had the shittiest shitfest of a game. Attack on Gibraltar. Defense team had 4 torbs, a Symettra and a Mercy. MOLTEN CORE! MOLTEN CORE! MOLTEN CORE! MOLTEN CORE! HEROES NEVER DIE! MOLTEN CORE! MOLTEN CORE! First game I have ever ragequit from. I'll gladly take the leaver penalty over that bullshit. Coordinated attacks and proper hero swapping to take out the turrets and break through resulted in more turrets popping up in their place, because the amount of effort it takes to remove one is far greater than the few hammer strikes to get one working. The Mercy couldn't be reached because 4 turrets auto-aiming, and it was pretty much impossible to break through when they had enough unmanned firepower to break through Reinhardt's shield in seconds. oh man i wish i was there for that. and as one of those torbjorns!! The guy is my go to for defense and occasionally attack if it's a point controlling map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 hero stacking just shouldn't be allowed period Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garpocalypse Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 55 minutes ago, Bleck said: hero stacking just shouldn't be allowed period disagreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted June 6, 2016 Author Share Posted June 6, 2016 4 hours ago, Kat said: Just had the shittiest shitfest of a game. Attack on Gibraltar. Defense team had 4 torbs, a Symettra and a Mercy. MOLTEN CORE! MOLTEN CORE! MOLTEN CORE! MOLTEN CORE! HEROES NEVER DIE! MOLTEN CORE! MOLTEN CORE! First game I have ever ragequit from. I'll gladly take the leaver penalty over that bullshit. Coordinated attacks and proper hero swapping to take out the turrets and break through resulted in more turrets popping up in their place, because the amount of effort it takes to remove one is far greater than the few hammer strikes to get one working. The Mercy couldn't be reached because 4 turrets auto-aiming, and it was pretty much impossible to break through when they had enough unmanned firepower to break through Reinhardt's shield in seconds. I had an experience there today and yesterday at temple of anubis that kind of opened my eyes to something I feel legit is a problem in this game. Unrealistic range. I don't have a problem with the fan the hammer, but Bleck has a point about the pinpoint accuracy. McCree got two headshots on me from all the way down the last corridor of Gibraltar. There is no way that a damned six-shooter should be just as accurate as a sniper rifle at such a distance. What is the point in playing the legit sniper if a character with a revolver is just as accurate? Torb-turrets and Bastion have the same problem. Sure, they're slightly less effective at a distance, but I've been playing long enough now to notice that on maps that heavily favour the defenders like Hanamura and Anubis, I tend to get rekt unless I have a Mercy helping me out despite shooting at them with Pharah from as far back as possible. Also today at Hanamura, I was in that opening right across from the entrance and Roadhog hooked me from quite a ways back into the courtyard. I didn't realize his hook had THAT much range. If they're going to nerf anything, it should be the unrealistic ranges that some things have. 2 hours ago, Bleck said: hero stacking just shouldn't be allowed period I agree 100%. They won't stop that though because they know that people would just leave if the couldn't play their favourite... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 There are a ton of problems. Hanzos arrows have a huge hitbox. When this is pointed out, 90% of the responses are "he couldn't hit anything if it were normal sized" followed by "learn2evade git gud". I trust the irony of that opinion need not be pointed out. Especially since, you know, as a Genji player I have to hit them with pinpoint accuracy with my shurikens. The only good thing about this is that huge hitbox = easy deflect. So, thanks for making deflecting his ult's initial arrow super easy I guess. The problem with the turrets is that they're omnipotent, and on many maps their 40m range is enough to shoot anything in sight when placed correctly, which removes the easy counters. You have to coordinate with your team to eliminate them. That's fine any all, but remember that it's taking a coordinated effort from your team to destroy a static aimbot created by one player, which can be rebuilt within seconds of being destroyed if you don't(or can't) capitalize. This is on top of dealing with the enemy team, whom certainly won't lounge around waiting for you to destroy their turrets. It shouldn't take a fully coordinated team to take down a single player's mechanic, but that's what happens in many maps where such placement is allowed. In many of those situations you'll need someone drawing the turret's fire(preferably a Reinhardt), but he'll often have to face away from the enemy team to block the turret while you kill it. Roadhog's hook, to my knowledge, is hitscan. When he uses the ability, the game determines if it will hit you based on lag compensation + favor the shooter(that is to say, his screen is favored as long as he's not like 500ms behind) and then the hook is launched at you. This is why you'll often get hooked behind obstacles. At the time of using it, the game said "Oh yeah, that's possible. Go for it!". 34 minutes ago, AngelCityOutlaw said: I agree 100%. They won't stop that though because they know that people would just leave if the couldn't play their favourite... Simple solution (which was used in Heroes of the Storm): Let players queue up as the hero they want to play. I'm not against hero stacking, but it should be regulated in some way. Maybe limit the amount of certain hero types(Sniper, Builder) that are allowed in each map. Or just allow it in quick play and do that in Competitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 other changes that should be made; torbjorn's turret should go on cooldown after building one, as it does now, but also after his current turret is destroyed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_NutS Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Torb is fine. Torb will be pretty darn useless at anything above low tier after competitive hits. You don't see any torbs in pro games since beta for that very same reason. Any coordinated effort shuts down torb easily. He's currently sitting in the bottom tier of competitive meta along with mei. He's less used than Mei. The issue you've faced lies more with the nature of casual quickplay than with anything remotely conected to torb's power. He doesn't need any nerfs, casual quickplay is an inherently unorganized play mode and the ability to stack champions to cheese matches makes it worse, that's all. It's the exact same with Bastion. Champion stacking is fine in casual quickplay. It shouldn't be a thing in competitive though, and I hope Blizzard doesn't allow it there. Right now the meta is stabilizing but it's still sort of a wild west, so team comp/champion power aren't taken into account as much, but once the game matures a little, and the meta settles, having champion stacking means that the most op dps champion of the moment (in our current time, McCree) will be stacked along with one tank and one support because it's just the best thing. This is because synergy between dps classes isn't a big thing, only between different roles, so you can get away with stacking the same dps champion (and pro teams are doing it right now) and not losing much synergy or utility. EDIT: I do agree that, if anything should be done to McCree, it lies in his accuracy at long range, it's unfair for him to be able to kill people effectively at any range, when soldier 76 and tracer have issues doing this at long range, and aren't as effective as him at close range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceansAndrew Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 I caved to peer pressure and bought the game. I have no experience in any real team games, so i'll be basically just running around and dying, but I like the art! Garpocalypse 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 3 hours ago, Sir_NutS said: Torb is fine. Torb will be pretty darn useless at anything above low tier after competitive hits. I have the same opinion about this as I do in other "competitive" games - millions of people should not have to deal with a thing that is unfun for them because the korean twitchmonsters that play this game twelve hours a day can deal with it easily any arguments about balance that involve the words "casual" or "competitive" are inherently flawed and pointless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_NutS Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 6 minutes ago, Bleck said: I have the same opinion about this as I do in other "competitive" games - millions of people should not have to deal with a thing that is unfun for them because the korean twitchmonsters that play this game twelve hours a day can deal with it easily any arguments about balance that involve the words "casual" or "competitive" are inherently flawed and pointless They are not pointless, since we're talking about reality. The reality of the thing is that like I said, when competitive hits, torb will be useless around the rank where teamwork is at a bare minimum, which should be mid-tier. It's not just the korean (or in this case, the europeans and north americans, since there isn't a korean scene yet) at the top. Meta picks, comps and strats trickle down to lower tiers from the highest, and in the end of every mature competitive game, a meta is established and followed. This has happened with league, csgo, dota, and every other team game. Inevitably, some things in a competitive game have to be balanced around the meta, and not around a guy who plays casually, it doesn't make sense, and you can't really have both most of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 no, people claim it happened in those games but the "low tier" metagame is an excessively simplified version of what the professionals actually do and why they do it people should not be punished for daring to play a video game at anything but a professional level Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_NutS Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 4 minutes ago, Bleck said: no, people claim it happened in those games but the "low tier" metagame is an excessively simplified version of what the professionals actually do and why they do it people should not be punished for daring to play a video game at anything but a professional level It is a simplified version but people still try to follow it to the best of their abilities. Again, balancing a game around people not being able to shield a hanzo while he takes two shots at a torb turret is not logical. Neither is balancing league around people not saving their stuns for master yi, or balancing killer instinct around people not being able to combo into manual from an opener. Not unless you want to have real balance, which is why every competitive game is balanced first around the high tiers of play. Mobas, fighting games, fps games, its all the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Regardless, if it takes a fair amount of teamwork and effort to deal with the mechanic of a single character, it is not balanced. This goes doubly for Torb, who is capable on his own( if lacking mobility) and can quickly rebuild said mechanic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_NutS Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 17 minutes ago, Kat said: Regardless, if it takes a fair amount of teamwork and effort to deal with the mechanic of a single character, it is not balanced. This goes doubly for Torb, who is capable on his own( if lacking mobility) and can quickly rebuild said mechanic. It doesn't take a fair amount of teamwork, it takes the most basic amount. In some cases, it doesn't take any amount and just a half decent hanzo (I should know, as I'm a half-decent hanzo myself). I can bet you that we won't see torb nerfs anytime soon. He is completely fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted June 6, 2016 Author Share Posted June 6, 2016 None of this justifies his turret being totally omnipotent, instantly rebuilt and having enough range that on many maps, long-range characters cannot reliably hit it without taking damage themselves. Basically, it's either going to distract your tank from pushing the objective or require one player taking fire from it whilst the other takes it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_NutS Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 4 minutes ago, AngelCityOutlaw said: None of this justifies his turret being totally omnipotent, instantly rebuilt and having enough range that on many maps, long-range characters cannot reliably hit it without taking damage themselves. Basically, it's either going to distract your tank from pushing the objective or require one player taking fire from it whilst the other takes it out. It's not omnipotent, and it can actually be taken down in a matter of seconds by a half-decent sniper. Being able to rebuild it matters not. Level 1 turret does minimal damage and goes down almost instantly. Oneshot if you attack it shortly after being deployed. In tf2, you need an uber to destroy a well positioned engi nest, and it requires equal amount of teamwork to defend it. Nobody thinks engi is op in tf2, because its not, its easily countered, just as Torb is. Or, get a tracer and ulti the turret. Or, get a genji to E it. Or many other ways. Like I said, you guys can whine all you want, but I'm pretty damn sure Torb isn't getting any nerfs anytime soon, and the patches in the upcoming months will show that. At most, he will probably receive a rework so he's actually usable in high competitive, but I don't expect that to come anytime soon. Git gud has never been truer than in this argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garpocalypse Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Git Gud against God-Tier Torb? No such thing. I am shooter, shredder, blaster, I am the bane of all Tracers; the turrets in the night, what's mine is scrap and ...stuff and power! I AM, just a guy with a funny name and a line of swivel chair products from IKEA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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