Lookin for a new DAW

[avaris]

OMG not this discussion again ahhhhh...ok seriously.

OK guys n gals I'm sure lots of you have used many of the different workstations available. I have been using fl studio and reason for awhile. I love Reason and use it a lot, but the only thing I ever use fl for anymore is for it's godly piano roll and to host my vst's. So I'm looking to upgrade to either Live 6 or Cubase 4. I've tried Sonar(just didn't click for me, too many lil buttons/options to move through, great sound quality though) and Pro Tools (ughh don't get me started on Pro Tools). I really like the "sound" that comes outta Cubase. I've used Ableton Live 6, disliked it at first but then things suddenly clicked and I really like the structure and flow, it's insanely fast and intuitive and fun. Kinda similar to how reason is so much fun to work with. Although I don't think Live can import midi which would suck for me bc I can't play by ear yet.

The biggest things I care about when it comes to a DAW is:

Sound quality (sound engine, I like to have a nice airy organic sound)

Midi editing (the only reason i've really stuck with FL, i do everything in midi)

Workflow/Intuitiveness (this is where Sonar lets me down)

Rewire Capabilities (this is big too)

I know we got a lot of knowledgeble people here so I just wonder if you guys could give me some first hand advice. I got a lot of financial aid this semester so I can afford the $399 for Cubase 4 on an academic buy. I also got all the instruments I need so that doesn't really go into the equation either. Also I'm a PC user, can't stand mac's so Logic and DP are outta the equation.

Just to reiterate, the sound quality/engine is big for me. I notice a big difference in how the same samples sound on Sonar/Live/FL. It sounds like Sonar has the best sound quality out of those three when I was comparing. The samples in Sonar had more of a natural reverbed sound. In live they sounded well less reverbed. And in FL the low notes sounded god awful, and overall the quality of the samples was less in than the other two IMO. I was using New Age Verb Piano in Kontakt 2 as the sample. I also made sure I was using the same latency on my ASIO in all three.

One last thing, I have already read through tons of forums about the different DAW's the past few days trying to get as many opinions as I can.

Thanks!

[Villainelle]

Sound quality (sound engine, I like to have a nice airy organic sound)

Midi editing (the only reason i've really stuck with FL, i do everything in midi)

Workflow/Intuitiveness (this is where Sonar lets me down)

Rewire Capabilities (this is big too)

(Just FYI, I use Cubase SX3.)

1. This really isn't an issue...people come up with these bogus theories about one DAW's sound engine sounding better/worse than another, and other people come up with tests to prove they don't. The only thing I know of that is truly different between hosts' sound engines is the way they handle panning law, and IIRC the setting can be changed in all of them anyway. What makes your sound is how you mix and master, not the DAW's sound engine.

2. Cubase has great MIDI editing...I've demoed Live, and wasn't anywhere near as comfortable with its MIDI. Live is just completely different from every other sequencer, but if you like its workflow aside from the MIDI editing, you can always Rewire another sequencer in for that or use a sequencer plugin.

3. Again, if you like Live, there's nothing else really like it. Cubase has a simple elegance about it. I find it most comfortable for MIDI editing, but when it comes to things like modular connections of instruments/channels/etc., it completely fails, which is a little frustrating for someone doing electronic music where sound manipulation is key.

4. Almost everything is Rewire compatible, or will be.

Keep in mind...Live and Cubase are not the only options out there. There are 3 up-and-coming hosts you should also check out before you buy anything (and these are far cheaper than the big boys):

Tracktion

http://www.mackie.com/products/tracktion3/splash.html

(not out yet, v2 here: http://www.mackie.com/products/tracktion2/splash.html)

energyXT

http://www.xt-hq.com/

REAPER

http://www.reaper.fm/

I've played with energyXT, and it's awesome--the environment is totally modular, you can hook up anything to anything else, and it's light and fast--it loads in like 2 seconds, compared to double-clicking the Cubase icon and going for a smoke. And Tracktion3 looks kickass, maybe the closest competitor to all the established sequencers. Only thing is...none of these have MIDI editing on par with Cubase yet. :\

ETA: One thing maybe worth noting...Cubase is the only sequencer WITHOUT a free downloadable demo. So if that's what you think you'll go with, make sure to try it out somehow first. I'll say again that for electronic music, it's definitely adequate because of its great MIDI editing (try out the logical editor stuff, macros, etc.), but if you're a plugin fiend who likes to really manipulate sound, it's falling behind modular hosts like energyXT (and even the way that Reason is modular with all its devices).

[the_nihilist]

(Just FYI, I use Cubase SX3.)

1. This really isn't an issue...people come up with these bogus theories about one DAW's sound engine sounding better/worse than another, and other people come up with tests to prove they don't. The only thing I know of that is truly different between hosts' sound engines is the way they handle panning law, and IIRC the setting can be changed in all of them anyway. What makes your sound is how you mix and master, not the DAW's sound engine.

Quoted for truth. Doing the same mixdown between hosts will give you phase canceling output. What I think happens is that working in one host compared to another just makes you approach the process of mixing differently. For example, I hardly layer, pan and automate in FL, wheras in Cubase I do those things alot because the things are right there on the timeline.

2. Cubase has great MIDI editing...I've demoed Live, and wasn't anywhere near as comfortable with its MIDI. Live is just completely different from every other sequencer, but if you like its workflow aside from the MIDI editing, you can always Rewire another sequencer in for that or use a sequencer plugin.

Other sequencers should just copy FL's piano roll. Cubase's works well, but it's still nowhere as easy. Where cubase DOES kickass is it's logical editor and other kinds of midi editing functions.

Sonar's MIDI editing is pure hell. You can't even do basic stuff like only adjusting the midi velocity of selected notes. Sure, you can (eventually) do most of the things you need to do with midi, but it's sometimes a long and frustrating process.

3. Again, if you like Live, there's nothing else really like it. Cubase has a simple elegance about it. I find it most comfortable for MIDI editing, but when it comes to things like modular connections of instruments/channels/etc., it completely fails, which is a little frustrating for someone doing electronic music where sound manipulation is key.

I disagree here. I've always found that cubase has a rather nice bussing system, and if you get clever with your group/fx and send channels, you can route most anything into anything else. It's not obvious at first, but it's there.

Reaper probably has the most flexible routing system out there for a non-modular host. And if you really find you NEED complicated routing, an Energy XT liscense is cheap and you get all sorts of awesome stuff with it, like the EXT sampler, a standalone sequencer, a free upgrade to EXT2 and the best arpeggiator ever.

I've played with energyXT, and it's awesome--the environment is totally modular, you can hook up anything to anything else, and it's light and fast--it loads in like 2 seconds, compared to double-clicking the Cubase icon and going for a smoke. And Tracktion3 looks kickass, maybe the closest competitor to all the established sequencers. Only thing is...none of these have MIDI editing on par with Cubase yet. :\

EXT doesn't have rewire support.

[analoq]

Although I don't think Live can import midi which would suck for me bc I can't play by ear yet.

you can import MIDI files into Live. just use one of the File Browsers and hunt down the MIDI you're looking for and you can drag it (or individual tracks) into the Session or Arrange view.

I've used Ableton Live 6, disliked it at first but then things suddenly clicked and I really like the structure and flow, it's insanely fast and intuitive and fun. Kinda similar to how reason is so much fun to work with.

just wanted to note: don't underestimate the importance of this. i'm glad to discuss tech specs and features, but what it really comes down to is your creative response to these tools.

[analoq]

Tracktion

http://www.mackie.com/products/tracktion3/splash.html

ahahha.. "Well that sucked!" i also love his dance when the faders are automating.

oh those goofy Mackie guys..

though it looks like they copied the Loop Browser from GarageBand.

[The Vagrance]

Go for Ableton, whatever "clicks" for you is what you should go with and Live is plenty capable to handle whatever you throw at it (it should be able to import MIDI btw).

[Villainelle]

I disagree here. I've always found that cubase has a rather nice bussing system, and if you get clever with your group/fx and send channels, you can route most anything into anything else. It's not obvious at first, but it's there.

Well, just for the sake of comparison, look at Reason--granted Reason is a closed environment, but you can plug almost anything into anything else in a very intuitive way. And then there's stuff like eXT and Logic's environment, where you have a flowchart-like diagram where you can route stuff. I guess I mean more that Cubase's approach to routing is a little archaic in comparison, and when something is hard to use, you tend not to use it as much or as freely, like you mentioned about FL's automation vs. Cubase.

[avaris]

Holy crap that Tracktion guy is awesome. "Dirty!" in the same clip as the "Well that sucked." I'm prob gonna watch that again.

analoq I def agree with you about creative response part. Thanks for reminding me too, sometimes in all the commotion about features it's easy to forget that.

I'm def gonna try out cubase before I write any checks though. The two things I've come across while researching it were it's midi capabilities and the sheer # of people who use it. I've watched some videos of it, and from the looks of it the workflow looks pretty good.

I got the midi to drop in nice and easy in the live demo. I'm so used to always seeing an "import midi" section in the file menu.

Thanks for all the comments everyone.

[realpolitik]

I tried out a demo version of Live a while back and loved it, the only reason I'm not using it is lack of money. Great workflow.

[Souliarc]

Sonar's MIDI editing is pure hell. You can't even do basic stuff like only adjusting the midi velocity of selected notes. Sure, you can (eventually) do most of the things you need to do with midi, but it's sometimes a long and frustrating process.

I don't know what Sonar you're using, but my Sonar let's you edit selected notes and their velocities fairly easily.

Make sure the controller pane is disabled, select your notes with the select tool, select the draw tool by pressing "d", put cursor over top middle of the note, move velocity. For even more individual control, hold down ctrl and move across the notes horizontally. You can even enable "velocity audition" to hear how each note sounds when you move the velocity level, making it easy to hear different samples mapped throughout different velocities.

Even if you do want to use the controller pane to edit velocities, just drag the tip of the velocity bar up or down.

Gravy.

[DF3]

I must say Ableton Live 6 because it is very easy and you can also load your VSt's there!

[avaris]

Yeah I'm def goin with Ableton Live6, the work/cpu efficiency and also the automation capabilities make my mouth drool.

[sgx]

Live is awesome. I use it.

You might want to check out some M-Audio midi controllers because a lot of them come with Live Lite which lets you upgrade to Live 6 for $200 ish. I bought an Axiom 25 and then upgraded to Live 6 and it cost me the same as buying Live 6 straight up. I don't know how that will work with education versions though.

Also, you might want to check out Cakewalk Project5. It is somewhat of a Live clone with less features, but its midi rocks hardcore. The audio side of it is pretty weak, but it sounds like you don't need it. P5 comes with Dimension which has a crapload of awesome samples and lets you upgrade to Dim Pro for $99. A free 2.5 upgrade is coming up in a couple months that is adding new bussing options, SONAR's ACT functionality, and a bunch of other awesome stuff. You can probably find P5 for $160 ish (NON EDU). I don't use it anymore because its audio is weak and some of the bussing/routing stuff is dumb (which will be fixed), but it is so cheap and otherwise good, I don't hesitate to tell people to check it out. No one talks about P5 anywhere and it is actually quite a good fit for a lot of people. And did I mention that it is cheap?

[Souliarc]

Live is awesome. I use it.

You might want to check out some M-Audio midi controllers because a lot of them come with Live Lite which lets you upgrade to Live 6 for $200 ish. I bought an Axiom 25 and then upgraded to Live 6 and it cost me the same as buying Live 6 straight up. I don't know how that will work with education versions though.

D-D-D-Dammit!

Too be honest, if I would've known that, I probably would not have gotten Sonar.

[avaris]

I already got a midi controller. But I did find where you could get an M-Audio Audiophile 192 for $180 and get a version of Live Lite with it. Too bad I already placed my order I was lookin into getting the sound card and then upgrading but I couldn't find what the upgrade price was on Ableton's site. It's all good though got a full version of Live6 for $279 which is a steal IMO. The thing that really got me in the end was reading different articles by tons of awesome electronic artists and how they use live. You really can't beat the automation capabilities and work flow/efficiency.

Project5 you can get for $139 on an academic buy...that's a friggin steal. I watched videos on it and it looked pretty radical and def something if I was just starting out doin music for fun I would pick.

[SnappleMan]

I really didn't care for Live at first, but it's been growing on me over time. Going back to Sonar after learning Cubase and a bunch of other DAWs is a bit strange.

In the end, Sonar has the best MIDI implementation I've seen. The editing is much faster and smoother, for me at least. But it still feels strange compared to Cubase.

[tweex]

I haven't had a chance to work with Live 6 yet. I use 5.2 right now. Let me know how you like it .

[MaliceX]

COCKOS REAPER, uncrippled shareware DAW app, works fine, an alternative similat to ACID or Cubase.

AS far as flexibility in MIDI sequencing goes, nothing beats WinJammer Pro 5.06 despite the lack of retrograde/flopping notes, and drag-cursor-to-play.

..IMHO

[sgx]

I haven't had a chance to work with Live 6 yet. I use 5.2 right now. Let me know how you like it .

6 is awesome. It is more CPU efficient (and I'm on a single core cpu) than 5, racks are exactly the same thing as Reason combinators minus Reason's CV routing, and Deep Freeze is amazing - when you have patterns of stuff, it actually intelligently just freezes the loop length and repeats it, plus it freezes any reverb tails. You can split, move, edit the frozen audio and those changes will be made to your midi or whatever once you unfreeze. Its also a great way to just plain render to audio.

Gripes are - midi timing issues with rewire Reason, and it can't run vsti's when in rewire slave mode . Arrange view interface is a bit cumbersome (track folders and whatnot would be nice).