New toy synth vs. new toy laptop

[SirRus]

yo! I need to get some musician opinions on something.

I've been having fun playing around with the Yamaha Motif xs and the Korg M3 and I have always wanted to have a brand spankin new workstation, but I've always just stuck to a midi controller and software sounds. I do appreciate the power of this setup, although the freeze ups due to my old computer have been causing a problem. so here's the deal:

new M3/motif xs or new laptop? and if laptop, what kind, how much RAM, what other specs should I be looking for a smooth workflow, etc.?

I'm especially interested in those remixers who do a lot of work primarily through a rack or synth and how that workflow feels, and it would be a bonus if anyone has any specific advice on either of these two synths or if I should be looking at any other ones as well.

[Zephyr]

I'd personnally recommend the computer, what good is a synthesizer/worksation if your computer can't run it? I'd recommend sticking with software sided equipment and stuff, in my opinion it's just better, and you need to be able to run it all without it crashing on you. Just one man's opinion.

[dannthr]

If you're serious about making music then you won't buy a laptop--you'll build a custom desktop yourself and you'll save money by buying a 3000 dollar turnkey desktop for a third of the price by building it yourself.

Then you'll have money left over for a synth, some sample libraries or synth softwares (which are just as good), and maybe some monitoring equipment--depends on how you want to prioritize your setup.

[analoq]

some folks who are accustomed to making music exclusively with software just can't adjust to the external rack/hardware workflow. i can't blame them; unless you're used to it or you can play all the parts live, the process may seem tedious. of course, if there is a specific hardware effect or synth you like, you're not going to be happy with a software approximation.

however if i had to pick between a new laptop or a workstation, i'd go for a laptop. you can ignore the above post's claims about "serious" musicians; unless you need 24-track recording or something on that level, a nice laptop is all you need.

cheers.

[dannthr]

I guess I'm a bit biased as I used to use external Romplers and Samplers and program them via computer interface software--but have since enjoyed creating my own external hardware samplers with computers for cheaper.

There is little difference between my old JVs and my external sampler slave computer except for the exceptional difference in sample quality and sample control.

Unless of course 5.3ms of total latency is too slow for your live performance.

I don't care if you buy your laptop but if you SERIOUSLY want to talk about stretching a dollar, Laptops aren't it.

[zircon]

Considering the vast amount of FREE/dirt cheap samples/plugins available, I'd say a laptop makes your dollar go farther than anything else.

[dannthr]

I must be daft, could you explain that one to me, Zircon?

[zircon]

Well, you can get a pretty awesome laptop for $1500 (and a top of the line desktop for that price). $1500 will buy you a middle-of-the-road hardware workstation. With that laptop, you can pick up stuff like the free Tascam GVI piano, the free Independence sampler, gigabytes upon gigabytes of soundfonts (most of which are culled from hardware anyway), ridiculous amounts of free synths + effects from KVRAudio, blowout sample CDs at Soundsonline, and so on and so forth.

Thus, your dollar goes further than with the $1500 non-expandable hardware workstation. Don't get me wrong, I do love my Korg X-50, for example, and I've spent a decent amount of time with upper-range (~$2k) keyboards... but I would pick a new computer every single time over hardware that costs the same price. A no-brainer considering today's software offerings, IMO.

[analoq]

I don't care if you buy your laptop but if you SERIOUSLY want to talk about stretching a dollar, Laptops aren't it.

arguably so, but your solution is that he go out and build another bulky PC when the one he already has is having issues? that gives him neither the Motif sound nor the new laptop he's looking for.. what good is that advice?

[dannthr]

I suppose if he want's to make music on a plane or in a car or something, I can definitely appreciate the need for a laptop--but he can't bring a big hardware rompler or sampler on a plane... so I have to ask, where is he making music that he can't have a desktop but where it would be appropriate to bring a Yamaha?

As far as I could tell, the guy's core problem wasn't that he couldn't decide between a laptop or a motif, but that he couldn't decide between a laptop or a motif because he didn't have enough money.

What good is my advice? What good is advising him to save money and possibly get more than he expected?

I suppose I'm too stupid to evaluate my advice--but I offer it to him because he's the one that'll decide whether or not it helps him.

A lot of people get trapped into an either/or buying situation, and I've seen (and made my own) mistakes when (myself or) the purchaser doesn't broaden their possibilities.

The potential to exploit free software and synths doesn't disappear when you have a custom built desktop and the potential to exploit COMMERCIAL software increases when you do.

To the OP:

When I began working with romplers seven years ago, I found the learning curve--like with anything new to your mind--a bit steep. If you want to go the hardware route, which is fine (but is slowly on the way out) I suggest choosing a synth or workstation that has accompanying software to assist you in programming new patches, drums, instruments, and ensembles, etc.

Once I felt extremely comfortable with my workstation and basically (then) interfacing completely via MIDI cable, I was able to program my own leads, basses, sounds, drums, kicks, snares, etc and really tweak and be exact about the sound I wanted.

I'd probably say it took me a full year and a half of working just with that specific rompler just to get to that level.

Personally, and this is largely influenced by the kinds of music I want to make now, I've gone completely the way of the software sampler. However, my workflow hasn't changed all that much because I use a separate computer dedicated to running my sample software exclusively. Being able to devote my system resources to the rendering of audio completely on one separate machine really let me abuse how much I could work with when it came to "polyphony" and sample size.

My workflow, however, remains fairly unchanged with the exception that I can simply DO more and SOUND better. I'm sure you can understand why I'm an advocate of computer based sampling/synthesis.

However, I don't know what your goals are and I made assumptions about what I thought would be a money saving choice since I perceived your problems to be focused on that problem.

Personally, I would love a laptop. Instead, however, I'm going to be saving my money as best as I can and I'll be looking at building another computer instead and donating my least performing machine to my mom since she's using a desktop from 1998

This computer will have:

AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+

256MB GeForce vid card (which I wouldn't normally get, except it has to do more than just music recording)

2GB of RAM

320GB 7200 rpm HD (for system programs and all my non-music files and apps)

150GB 10000 rpm HD (for the odd VSTi samples)

My other machine is the sample machine, but there are a few virtual instruments I want to have on my main machine for workflow purposes.

This computer will cost me, with legitimate OS, about $760 (S&H not included) and that's with all the components coming from newegg (and spending $140 on a legit copy of windows) without even shopping around at zipzoomfly or tigerdirect.

Now, the big reason, aside from the money (which is significant in my opinion), that I haven't gone with a laptop is that it's nearly impossible to find a laptop with at least a 7200rpm HD, most are 5400rpm which is just too slow for me--even for regular use.

I don't know what the other stats look like, the laptop market seems quite varied depending on the reputation of the manufacturer.

I hope I was helpful, and if not, good luck and more power to you.

[analoq]

I have to ask, where is he making music that he can't have a desktop but where it would be appropriate to bring a Yamaha?

but if he chose the laptop, then he wouldn't have the motif... what is the point of this question?

A lot of people get trapped into an either/or buying situation, and I've seen (and made my own) mistakes when (myself or) the purchaser doesn't broaden their possibilities.

this is true, and i didn't mean to antagonize you for offering an alternative suggestion. it merely seemed (to me) that your solution doesn't satisfy the needs of the OP. obviously i'm not the right person to make that call, but i was interested in your reasoning behind it.

it's nearly impossible to find a laptop with at least a 7200rpm HD

it's not necessary, but it's actually quite easy... just not always cheap (:

[SirRus]

thanks for all the responses guys, zircon and analoq, just so you know I've been listening to your music (and the new FF7 album) all week while studying for my first test block of med school - I'll have you guys to thank here in a couple weeks for the music that kept me going.

and to tie school in here - the laptop is because of med school partly too. The convenience for studying around campus and elsewhere is starting to seem like a must - so if I do go with a laptop, I appreciate your suggested specs dannthr, although the 7200rpm HD may have to be a sacrifice I haven't checked pricings for laptops yet.

zircon I believe I remember you got a v-synth and then returned it because you were not content with the workflow, and analoq I believe you work a LOT with hardware, so its nice to have both of your opinions.

laptop + novation midi controller (the auto-mapping seems ultra bad-ace) now the decision is mac/pc...

thanks again

[Fray]

I have a couple of synth modules -- an Evolver (which has analog filters, so obviously needs to be hardware) and a Roland XV-5050 that in theory could be replaced entirely with software. Don't get me wrong, I like the XV-5050 a lot -- it has good effects and some really nice presets, but bouncing back and forth between MIDI and audio can be a bit painful. I second analoq's suggestion that if you don't play your parts in live (I do, and then edit them as needed), it's going to be doubly annoying.

One of the main things that makes me keep the XV-5050 is that it does offload a bit of work from my computer, so I haven't felt much need to buy a new one. But it sounds like your old PC is shot anyway. So I also nudge you towards the computer upgrade (either laptop or desktop like dannthr suggested).

[dannthr]

True that, there are often no substitutes for good, warm, analog filtering.

In fact, I'm pretty sure the 5050 has some analog filters but it uses sampled waves.

[Yoozer]

True that, there are often no substitutes for good, warm, analog filtering.

Yes.

In fact, I'm pretty sure the 5050 has some analog filters but it uses sampled waves.

Uh, no, not at all?

The last analog filter they've made is either in an analog mixing desk or in a DCO-based synthesizer of 1986. After that, either nothing or digital. The combination sampler-analog filter is rare, by the way.

For a while, there were the dark ages - the U-series of modules didn't have filters at all; then came the JV/XP which had digital resonant filters, and then came the SRX/XV where the 5050 belongs to. They haven't been updated much in the meantime.

Roland has nice filters but push the resonance too high and it becomes usual - they'll squeal like a Japanese schoolgirl getting assaulted by a tentacle monster.

Even then, people in search of a workstation generally buy it because it's got a good piano and realistic instruments; filters are usually the least of their concern. Although the Motif XS has nice filters (but with the penalty of a removed AN plugin board).

As for the M3; the Karma feature is amazing, but I've heard M3 owners say they weren't much an improvement over the Triton Extreme. Instead of buying the latest & greatest, the Motif ES or the aforementioned Extreme is pretty capable too.

Investing a stupidly high amount of cash in a computer (especially a laptop) isn't smart in general. Don't buy the very best, because it costs disproportionally more, plus in 2 years you'll most likely buy something new as technology marches on too fast.

A workstation can't "render" or "flatten" tracks easily; you're bound by the speed of the internal CPU. It doesn't have all the crazy nice automation options most software sequencers have, and the MIDI traffic can get choked. However, software sequencers lack something like Karma - watch the videos, they're awesome) and the software requires you to have a Triton (probably as a dongle of sorts).

A lot of skill is put in the programming of presets on workstations; software sample libraries often don't have these niceties (or surpass workstation presets completely because you just can't get 25 gigabytes of orchestral goodness in such a thing). They'll cost you more, though For the subtractive synthesizers, plugins take the lead. While something like a Radias isn't available as an exact copy, it's possible to cobble up something using several plugins (which means more variety, too ).

[suzumebachi]

what it comes down to (in my mind) is this:

• if you play live shows, get the workstation.
  
• if you're just recording and stuff in-home, get the laptop

i've gathered that you don't play live, so definitely go with the computer. regarding the mac/pc question, if you asked this question a year ago, i would have said PC. but with the new fangled intel macbooks, you can get the best of both worlds and dual boot mac OSX and windows. that's the way i'd go. the question is whether or not the hardware you wanna use is mac compatible, but most is these days. the only problem is macs are generally much more expensive than PCs.

[analoq]

i agree with Yoozer that you shouldn't grab the most top-of-the-line system you can, but consider the following:

- Desktops depreciate in value faster than Laptops

- PCs depreciate in value faster than Macs

you could save some money in the short term getting a PC or a desktop, but when it comes time to upgrade you're not going to be able to sell your old system for very much. in the long run it's economical to buy say, a MacBook (Pro) because you'll be able to get more money for it when the time comes to upgrade.

but even if you planned on taking a 100% loss on your new system, Apple's portable products are really excellent. i have an easier time recommending their portables than their desktops.

cheers.

[dannthr]

Yeah, the MacBookPros are nice--I've been using a friend's infrequently.

Also macs, I hear tell, have better RAM addressing--which is kind of messy now in PCs with the transition to 64bit.

I'm converting my sample machine to Win XP 64bit and I'm not sure how well it's going to go...

...but there are plenty of great mac solutions.

However, if you have a higher inclination one way or the other when it comes to your own comfortability--that's also important to listen to. You want to make sure that the workflow jives with your own creative process and while both PC and Macs are likely adaptable to whatever your needs might be, you may simply work better with one or the other.

Despite my frequent encounters with macs of all kinds, I still can't flippin' type on their keyboards for the life of me. I am also fairly comfortable diagnosing PC error issues and don't really like Mac's mystery integer error codes.

When building or choosing computer components--do your research and take your time. The best time to buy new computer components is the latest possible moment because of that depreciation. However, if you pay attention to trends you can buy components with future upgrades in mind.

For example, if you're choosing a motherboard, try to pick one that has sockets that seem like they'll be around a bit longer. You can still buy a cheap CPU and then when you need to upgrade, hopefully you'll find a much better CPU at again, a reasonable price.

Most sampler software isn't actually CPU intensive, it's usually plug-ins and software fx and VSTs that start demanding more CPU time.

etc, etc

Thanks for the history lesson, Yoozer, you make some great points!

[SirRus]

going to pick up a macbook pro 15" 2.2Ghz, comes with the 2GB of RAM and enough HD space (don't know the RPM value or whatever that thingy is of the HD but I'm sure its good enough...)

thanks again for all the input. anybody know much about the novation sl? should I get the novation zero and midi control it with like an m-audio keystation or are the novation keys a step above? I could not find a novation product to test out at my guitar center... maudio keys are piano-ish... I've heard novations are a bit better, but I'd love to get y'all's opinions on midi controller feel.

[anosou]

just putting my vote on MacBook Pro. It's my weapon of choice and has never ever let me down (except on 40-track reason projects since Reason ain't good dealing with dual-core).

GO FOR IT

[dannthr]

The last Novation keyboard I used had no action at all, which is usually appropriate for synthstations.

My main MIDI controller is a CME UF8 which has weighted action (like a piano) and has a selection of velocity curves so I can pick a response appropriate to the instrument I might be pretending to play.

The CMEs are a bit more expensive than the M-Audios, at least when I was shopping, but they have a few more options. They're fully weighted and the M-Audios are semi-weighted, and also, I think, though I'm not sure, the M-Audios don't have aftertouch, which is a controller I actually use from time to time.