The Pezman Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Alright folks. What's the word on the blaring trumpets & trombones, the kings of the swings, the jazzamatazz? I want to mix big band style. Any comments on Garritan Big Band? Any particularly competent freeware alternatives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Definitely no good free there out there, even payware like JABB is not amazing. Chris Hein Horns and First Call Horns are two nice choices, and if you were somehow to inherit $2000 or so, Broadway Big Band is absolutely THE best for that style (and sounds dang-near perfect.) Too bad it costs an arm and a leg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannthr Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Plus, unless something's changed, BBB also uses its own proprietary sampler. Annoying. There's also another great set coming from a slow moving company, WarpIV. http://www.warpiv.com/1050394.html Their screaming trumpets are pretty sexy--their other stuff is... coming along? There definitely aren't enough Jazz package contenders. The WarpIV Tribute to John Berry, however, is worth a listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Actually, there's one other product I forgot... Wallander Instruments has an AMAZING set of physically modeled brass ("WIVI" vol 1) that use purely synthesized tones and special convolution reverb to give an extremely accurate sound. Some people are shocked at how thin it sounds at first, but when you think about how a real brass instrument, alone, in a dry room actually sounds... it's quite accurate. They also released a second volume, winds, which is not quite as good but still very solid. Very expressive overall. Downside: they're really expensive, though not as bad as BBB. At least there's a demo. http://wallanderinstruments.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanthos Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 I don't know about other libraries, but Garritan JABB is horrible. Their brass is pretty good, and rhythm section is great, but their sax instruments are painful to listen to. I downloaded this to try it out and see if it was worth paying money for, and deleted it within an hour. I haven't listened to samples from the other libraries mentioned here, but Garritan isn't worth any amount of money. If you just want trumpets and trombones, you can do much better, there are tons of places to get good rhythm section instruments from, and the saxes sound worse than the sound a cat makes when kicked, run through a wah pedal, phaser, and heavy distortion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DZComposer Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 JABB isn't as horrible as people say it is. Now, like most Garritan products, this isn't aimed at the uberealistic spend $5000 on a library crowd. So don't expect it to sound 100% like a real big band. Yes, the saxes aren't great, but that cat analogy is a bit of exaggeration. They're not that bad. I've heard way worse. I put them in the "okay" range. That said, it isn't bad. It is amazingly flexible in terms of what you can do with a single loaded instrument. Most articulations can be triggered by MIDI CC instead of requiring you to load tons of patches. Dynamics and vibrato are entirely controllable. Here's the rundown on JABB: The Good: cheap compared to other libraries of this type, and better sounding than anything else in this range. If you take the time to learn it, you'll find that it is VERY controllable. Totally awesome brush snare stirs. Amazing customer support. They go out of their way to help you if you have a problem and the engineers and ever Mr. Garritan himself are active on the company forums. No pre-recorded reverb The Bad: Learning curve: The #1 reason Garritan libraries get called junk is because people don't take the time to learn how to properly use the library before dismissing it. If you just load it up and start punching notes, it will sound horrible. No section samples: Everything in JABB is sampled solo. No section samples exist and all winds are limited to single-note "polyphony." I think this is part of the reason why the library can sound a little weak at times. No velocity layers for winds: The way these libraries are coded, it is impossible to have velocity layers. Timbre is controlled by the mod whell along with dynamics. Other controllers are required to get anything resembling to a realistic experience. higer CPU load that plan samples: Since so much processing is done, these libraries are more CPU intensive that ones that are just straight sampled. Now, I'm not saying that you need to buy this one. If you can afford one of those awesome ones, by all means go for it. But, for the budget, it isn't half bad provided you take the time to learn it. It has gotten many positive reviews and won a few awards, so it isn't utter crap as some suggest. With most libraries, you just wear the composer's hat. With Garritan ones, you need to wear the musician's hat too. It has strengths and it has weaknesses, as others do. Don't count them out based on comments from people who decided that it sucked before they learned to properly use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanthos Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 The cat analogy was hyperbole That said, I could hardly stand to listen to any of the official demos on the site because of the poor-sounding saxes. Low budget libraries don't necessarily mean low quality. Perhaps it's something about the timbre of a sax that sets it apart, but a library like EWQL Symphonic Orchestra Silver still has an overall level of realism that's much higher than JABB. While I haven't played with the library enough to really get into its strengths in detail, I wouldn't say it's a *bad* purchase if you know what you want it for and know what it can and can't do. If you plan to write mainly for brass and either not have too much saxes (particularly exposed sections or solos), then it could work pretty well on a low budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pezman Posted December 5, 2007 Author Share Posted December 5, 2007 What is JABB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanthos Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 Garritan Jazz and Big Band Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophetik music Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 jabb sucks. pretty much, if you want a good sound, get someone to record every single part. no lie, that's the best way to get it done. find a bone player, a screamer, a trumpet player, and a sax player, and fake the rhythm section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzumebachi Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 the brass samples that come onboard a yamaha motif or MO are better than JABB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DZComposer Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 I'm not trying to say that JABB has the highest quality samples or that it is better than library x. I'm just saying don't dismiss it as crap without an understanding of how this library works as it is vastly different than most libraries out there. It may not have the best sample quality, but it can do some amazing things performance-wise (some of which can improve the quality of sound if done right) which is the true strong point of the library. What it lacks in sample quality, it makes up for in playability, expressiveness, and musicality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DZComposer Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 My appologies for the doublt-post, but I found something that may be helpful to the original poster (or anyone else interesting in mixing jazz style): http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=107 It is written with the assumption that you are using JABB, but it looks like it should apply anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pezman Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 Completely forgot about this. What does Hemophiliac use? I just today remembered his track from Kong in Concert and it sounds realistic enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffan Andrews Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 JABB is rough around the edges and has a rigidity to it that I just found unplayable. Apart from the technical requirements of manipulating the samples, the obvious comment would be that arranging properly for big band can make a big difference in its believability. The composer I work with is getting SoniVox Big Band in the next month or two and I'm setting it up for him. It will be interesting to use it hands-on and see if it's truly as playable as they claim it to be. For big band stuff currently, I resort to the older libraries from Roland and ones like those. Still classic, they're extremely playable and very realistic. Solo instruments, extensive effects, and multisampled stacks. I have a number of them, can't recall their origins at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffan Andrews Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I checked out the Wallander Instruments and the demos sounded alright.. so I decided to grab the trial version and test it out. There are no words to describe how amazing these are to play. I just laid down the $616 for the brass section. Quite frankly, the possibilities with this are nearly limitless. It blows away absolutely every brass library I've ever used. Because it's based on physical modeling, you can do nearly anything a live player could. The development has come so far now that it sounds absolutely convincing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pezman Posted February 25, 2008 Author Share Posted February 25, 2008 That's pretty cool. What have you done with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffan Andrews Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 That's pretty cool. What have you done with it? I also have the entire woodwind collection now. I've used the brass and woods on quite a number of cues for a TV show I'm writing for, and I plan on using it in the CT Tyrano Lair remix I'm working on currently. It's great for Williams/Elfman stuff and pretty much any orchestral setting. For more pop oriented tracks I might stay away from the Wallander stuff because its tonality is focused on recreating the beautiful nuances of the instruments. That being said, the brass will really belt it out if you drive them, and it's an amazing sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemophiliac Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Completely forgot about this. What does Hemophiliac use? I just today remembered his track from Kong in Concert and it sounds realistic enough for me. well i hadn't listened to this in a really long time because i don't really think i did a good job on that at all. those were all samples in the KiC track. i did however get another arrangement of mine recorded live... http://www.vgmix.com/members/156/audio.php <-Real, despite a site read and trumpets not being entirely together. that's reality for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pezman Posted February 26, 2008 Author Share Posted February 26, 2008 That being said, the brass will really belt it out if you drive them, and it's an amazing sound. Yeah, if it can do it can probably do what I'm thinking of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffan Andrews Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 It helps immensely if you have a breath controller. It's designed to react to it like you're playing the instrument. You can use any controller in substitution, like the modwheel, but it doesn't have the same effect. It responds to the natural envelope of breath, especially for staccato notes and complicated dynamics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnappleMan Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 well i hadn't listened to this in a really long time because i don't really think i did a good job on that at all. those were all samples in the KiC track.i did however get another arrangement of mine recorded live... http://www.vgmix.com/members/156/audio.php <-Real, despite a site read and trumpets not being entirely together. that's reality for you. Ughh.... fail There is no cost effective way to get a big band arrangement that sounds good. As you can clearly hear in Hemo's track, getting any two people to be in tune is next to impossible unless you have good players. And good players will not be offering to play for free in your college, they will be out making money, and you'll have to pay them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffan Andrews Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Generally, money equates results. Depending on the arrangement and production style, you can more or less get away with a combination of sample libraries. One of the composers I work with will do this when a show's budget does not allow for a live session. The combination of experience in proper arrangement and orchestration for big band, coupled with cherry-picked patches from a variety of libraries, coupled with a proper mix including EQ and reverb will get you 95% of the way there. The downside to this is that you have to cater the arrangement to the capabilities of the samples, which typically only give you access to the most common styles and articulations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannthr Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Have to chime in here. A new company called Sample Modelling is releasing a vi called THE TRUMPET http://www.samplemodeling.com/en/products.php Personally, I don't like Wallander Instruments, but the combination of samples and modelling is, in my opinion, just right for where this industry should be heading. Watch the video. The Trumpet is the result of a many-year research carried out by Giorgio Tommasini and Peter Siedlaczek, who also performed all the recordings. The K2 script was written by Nils Liberg, Josef Natterer and Giorgio Tommasini. We are also indebted to Stefano Lucato for co-research work and helpful suggestions. Seriously, these guys are the BAD ASSES of the sampling world. Nils Liberg is probably one of the best Kontakt scripters in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffan Andrews Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 That's pretty cool. I'll have to keep my eye on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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