Gario

Woa! You really WERE paying attention to this thread! Excellent! Alright, here's the breakdown of this... Change the texture that comes in at 0:25 to E. Don't ask questions, just do it. It'll fix quite a bit with the 'wrong note' problem. That bass sound clashes with the rest of the mix. I don't know how the thing is set, so I can't say exactly where you should put it. It needs to move two whole steps down (or four semitones) in order to work with the E key that I'm suggesting. At 2:02 the theme hits a very wrong note. It should be a minor third (four semitones) above where it hits, and at 2:05 it should go up the same amount. You fix the note later in the song, so fix it here . The reverse cymbal is cool at 2:06 - 2:08, but for the genre I'd recommend making the release a lot shorter (it'll sound like the end of it 'clipped off' rather than letting it resonate). Now that I've finished nit picking, I'll give an overview... The idea you have is emerging from this song more than the last WIP, but it still isn't there yet. At the moment, it is still far too repetetive and the keys are way off. You've dramatically improved the production quality, but now the mix is too quiet. I'll use a piece of advice Rozovian always gives... "Put your music up there with other current OCR mixes and see if your's sticks out.". You'll notice that the quality of instruments is still quite under the standards, and the mix is very VERY quiet compared to theirs. Now I know that you understand you cannot simply turn up the volume, 'cause you clipping problem will return. I'm still trying to perfect the whole sound level problem myself, so I can't help you much there (Sorry!). If you want to continue this piece, make the changes I recommended above, then see if you can change the textures, vary them, do whatever it takes to make the song less repetetive. Your solos at the end really should stay in the same key at the piece starts in. Right now they meander without direction and out of key (My brother used to do the same thing on his guitar when soloing...), so change the solos so they are in key. If you don't know what I'm talking about with the whole 'key' thing... then look it up in Wikipedia . I'd personally recommend working on more than one piece here. You've been chewing on this one for almost a year - It's like spashing in a pond when you could be swimming in a lake. If you want to fix and finish this song, fine, but I recommend moving to a new song, at the same time. Post here and we'll help you out. Good luck!

Oh, well THAT submission made it obvious just64helpin... lol. Clever. You know, I actually thought you guys we're talking about the Golden Sun music. That's what came to mind, for me . Well, my submission's up. I just hope it's not too liberal for you all... I dissected the source and put pieces of it throughout for you, so it's still there .

Gargh! It sounds like something that I've heard before, too, but unlike you, Just64helpin, I don't remember where! Grrr... Perhaps I'll remember whe you post, then. Oh well, I've got something in the works, so we'll see how this turns out... and if anyone knows where to find a really nice orchestral Bass Drum sound/plugin, let me know - the one I have is severely lacking . Umm... when is the deadline? Is it the 21st (2 weeks, 4 days from March 3rd) or the 29th? I'm guessing the 21st, so you may want to fix that (unless you want us to use all that time to make something awesome even MORE awesome ). Nice source, Will.

You think THAT's big? Check out the damn FF6 ost... over 70 tracks on that (and all of them are spectacular, of course). Have you got your work cut out for you... For what's here, it's good, but I feel that this is only half of the song. If this is a title screen, then it definitely needs to be longer. I mean, seriously; how will you reward those listeners that actually let the title screen run on just to hear the entire song? MM3's title screen did it; those that were always impatient and pushed start too quickly missed out on one of the best VG songs ever created... Like I said, though, it's great so far for what it is!

Hey, this reminds me of the good ol' Button Mashers... Hey Xenon, what ever happened to those guys? They were incredible! BTW, awesome junk, here, although I don't know the source for your latest one .

I think it's the chords that I'm thinknig about, the chords that sound like - Baah - Baah - Baah - Bah - Baah - Bah - Baah - Baah - Baah - repeat... ...for a lack of a better way to describe it... I think it enters at 0:18 on the mandolin' like instrument. I hear it in more of the piece, now that I'm listening... better stick my foot in my mouth, now . Gee, your a pal . It's not the change itself that's ackward, it's the lead that goes from one key to the next. It sounds like it wanted to go up (like the older mix), but then slides down to the appropriate key. I believe it's simply a residue of what you were trying to do before... then the lead changes it's mind and moves somewhere else. The drums sound just right for me, as they are now. Nice fix, there! You've still got a few weeks before you can sub, right? Still time to make the piece better!

Ok, I understand that the source is in the track name, but if you want people to look at your post then post the source in the thread name. Also, it helps to post the source tune in the thread for those that aren't familiar with it (like me). On with the show... To be honest, the mixing and bitrate are excellent, so the J's won't be hammering you for that . The synth will probably get you knocked down a little bit... It sounds like it would sound great as an organ (not church, more like a draw organ), though, if you want some idea as to what may sound good, there. The ending is a bit weak. The quasi-fade out ending doesn't leave me feeling satisfied. These are the main issues going against you at the moment, for me. If you want to have an idea as to how this'll fare on OC, I'd listen to this next to some Sixto guitar music, as the genre is similar. If it compares to it in you mind, then it's certainly worthy of a submission. The reason I can't give you a clear 'Yes' or 'No' is because I have no clue how the source goes, so my answer wouldn't be complete. Hope this helps!

Heh, I'm glad you caught on to the sig, Will. Yes, the irony was intentional, there. Call me an ironic son of a gun . It also follows the theme of the site at the same time - to make video game music a real experience outside of the game itself, so it's got a duel meaning, there... Now that you caught me I've got to go and change it .I'll listen to the new track in about an hour or so, 'cause I've gotta go... so I'll be back!

lol, glad you liked the posts ... and sorry that I can't make it any simpler than that. It's a historical kind of thing, and many people have difficulty hearing what is wrong with it (as it is used in more contemporary music, now, anyhow). The only thing is that many composers write in a language that is over 400 years old, and the P5ths rule holds sway on that style. Heh, it would sound devastating if you were taught theory (with the proper aural training that should accompany it). One of the first things you learn is that P5ths are taboo for tonal music... It's part of the reason that I can't stand it in the context of tonal stuff (which this counts as, BTW) . I feel better for it, though.Don't worry, I'm not gonna expand on the P5ths epic I've created... but I'd simply suggest trying out some different things at the parts I mentioned, and if they don't work for you, go back to what you had before. Perhaps you'll find that there is something out there that sounds better for you (and me, lol)... Ok, I agree that the drums may be a bit loud for this track (mainly the bass). They drive the music, for sure, but the bass seems a little loud for me, right now. Otherwise they're good (especially with the additional doodads you've added). I actually like where the key went better this time (as it took some of the 'edge' off of the background texture), but how you approached it sounded a bit worse. That sliding lead really messed with my head, there (in a bad way). I made some suggestions on this before, and they still hold true, IMO. As for being anticlimatic, I actually liked the subdued sound of it all. Not all music needs a climax, really... BTW, I sort of miss the intro material that you expand on in the beginning of the piece... I think it could be in more of the music as additional texture to add some richness to it all. I want more of it! Keep it comin'!

My brother DL'd the torrent for this site about a week ago, so I thought I'd meander around the tracks for a bit... then I stumbled on this gem. Strange, but the only thing I can say right now is that it's far greater than the sum of it's parts! I just got done teaching a math class, so go figure It's a shame that OC doesn't accept chiptune pieces anymore - we're probably missing out on quite a few gems like this!

Hey, I remember this one! Back when I heard it, though, it had vocals... It sounds like you took them out to focus on other things. I think it's ready to have them put back in, again. The genre calls for vocals to be the focus of attention; the background textures and harmonies are interesting and cool, but need vocals in order for this to sound complete. At 4:12 - 4:15 and 4:30 - 4:32, you have an electric piano in the mix. Don't get me wrong, the jazzy harmonies are nice, but the melodic work in it sounds off at those parts. Fix the melodies up, there. At 4:52, I really like the slap bass. Does anyone remember the game 'Utopia' for the SNES? It's bringing that to mind, for me... After a while, though, that cool bass becomes stale. I'd hold off on it after about 45 seconds... The ending needs some cleaning up. The guitar work is messy and doesn't work very well on it's own, right now. I'd say even though the source doesn't change up the harmonies much, you must. The four harmony sequence you repeat eventually just sounds lazy. Your gonna sing over this, right? Make a significant harmonic change for where you plan on putting your chorus, it'll help distinguish it from other parts. There's a part (1:12 - 1:16) where the volume turns down (or suddenly is hard-panned); whether that was intentional or not, it sounds like a mistake, right now. I'd change that. In general, it sounds good. It'll sound better when you get those vocals back in, though, so I'll keep an ear out on this one, again!

Right, right. I think you nailed it... I can understand if you want to keep the leaping melodic lines at 0:30 - 0:40 and 1:09 - 1:20, etc., but it doesn't sound right to me. I notice that most people aren't having a fit over it like I am, so maybe it's just me, in this case I'm just saying, like I did earlier in the thread (and I did find the post that says this; it's just buried in the midst of the monster thread, here) that leaping around with the melody when the harmonies are static isn't a good idea. If you need variety, I'd suggest using timbre, texture or rhythm to achieve that. If no one else hears what I'm talking about... well, again, maybe it's me, here As for the 'missed beats', I hear what that's about... Are you starting the song with 2 beats of silence? If you are, then I'd recommend moving the whole thing back those two beats and looking at how the measures line up then... SlyGeN is hearing the missing 'two beats' that makes everything look shifted when you move the start of the song to there. I don't have a problem with it, personally, but if you want to play around with adding some stuff to make everything line up properly, then that's the place to start. Sorry for not being clear about my statements earlier, BTW...

-BUMP!- Ok, everyone, I've finally gotten around to updating this. Tell me what you think. http://www.box.net/shared/rqrgluikb4 I've done a whole bunch of stuff to the mixing/mastering, so it sounds a lot more clear. Ive also FINALLY addressed you issue with the drums, Dafydd, and went through the entire song and used more of an electronic sound (and yes, there is still a snare, to give some variety to the sections). I tinkered with the lead, trying to dull it down a bit in parts so it wasn't so piercing at parts... The end is still slightly loud, as well. I still have some work on those, so stay tuned. I'm gonna PM Zircon about the quality, then (if there isn't any glaring problem posted here) I'll submit it Thoughts?

Zircon's the man, in this department, so if he says use headphones, then use headphones... Actually, I can't fathom trying to do it any other way, due to how finicky monitors can be. It is interesting, however, to sit back sometimes and listen to your piece with common speakers, just to hear how it sounds. When I write my music I try to mix and master while writing the piece as much as possible. I think of mastering as a part of the composition process, myself, so I can't just leave it at the last minute (I use to wait until the end to do that stuff... bad idea ). Hah, I've had that happen a lot. One way to diffuse it somewhat is to write it into the music. If it sounds better, great! Otherwise, take it back out, and it shouldn't bother you anymore. Your brain now has a proper aural image in it, and because didn't sound right in there, you won't be singing it to yourself... Of course, you've got to catch yourself doing it, in the first place. I tend to sing to myself when I write, so when I sing something that isn't there, it's pretty obvious...

It sounds better. Now that we got that out of the way, lets see what we've got going on here... Why, oh why, does the volume go up and down periodically? Did you insert it or is it an artifact? Try to get rid of this. I like the added percussive effects in the beginning, as well as the synth. It ties to the source better, now . Eesh, perhaps the new lead is a bit harsh (although I like it when you play with the EQ on it...). I think there is a place and time for that lead, and one for your old lead. Why not use both? I'm not that familiar with DnB, but I don't nkow if it's sounding like that genre anymore... It's starting to sound like Electronica. I don't think that's bad, but I don't know if that's what you want. The shifty melody is still there (Ack, in even more places, too!) I've talked about it before, so you know what I'm saying, there ... Ok, the 'ending' with the echo sounds like it's actually gonna echo, then go into an 'Oh SHIT' double time part. Well, do what your gonna do, there, but I suggest letting the echo play for about a measure, then moving into double time and beating the crap uot of the listener. We're still here, so keep postin'!

I understand how that is... but money shouldn't be a big problem if you want to learn. Yoozer's got the best method around when it comes to learning, and that is by listening to other pieces of music. Do this critically; listen to what the music does and ask yourself what the patterns are and why. This is, in fact, how I started to compose music (except I went the opposite way you did - remixed video game music and then wrote my own stuff). Also, you can look up information online for some basic music theory which could help you get around the basic terminology that we may be throwing around (key, tonic, chord, scale, etc... look em' up!). These can help your composing dramatically, but it requires you to do some of the footwork! Oh, and if your getting into remixing in general, video game music isn't the only thing you can remix (Oh! I've committed an OC sin!!). If your more comfortable with heavy metal, remix heavy metal songs. If R&B is your forte, then remix some popular R&B. And one last note... I'd recommend playing other people's music on your keyboard (listen and then play it, read sheet music, whatever). It'll help you make connections that sometimes you cannot make by listening alone. I wish you the best!

Well, of course; I'm not telling him what to do, just giving suggestions (as are we all). I'm giving some depth behind my critiquing 'cause he asked for it... ...and blame Hemophiliac for my ungodly post size; he put me up to it .

Thanks a lot, guys! Audacity works great for this! I knew about Audacity, but I didn't know that it was for conversions. I knew it was great for recording, but thats it. This makes my day; thanks!

Hah! I was waiting for someone to give me the 'P5ths isn't that bad' thing for some time now, so thank you Hemophiliac for opening this discussion up True, true; it's not 'always' wrong to use a P5th - however, in the context of tonal music, there is... If you find a P5th anywhere in tonal music (that spans, by the way, ~1550 - 1915, not just Palestrina, Zarlino, etc., but also Beethoven, Brahms, early Schoenberg, etc.), I assure you that it most certainly either isn't structural or is an illusion (e.g. Grieg's 'Church Bells' seems to have P5ths littering the entire thing - however, you find upon closer analysis that the 5ths are really completely seperate voices so there isn't anything wrong with it ).The big problem with parallel fifths, to be more accurate than my last post, is that, in fact, it has such a strong static effect on a chord that the listener's ear (well, listeners of the past, with 'power chords' being so common, perhaps not as much today ) catches the moment to be 'static' rather than in motion; thus, if one moves from one static moment to another without anything intervening, the music will certainly sound 'clunky'. That's why contrapuntalists so firmly and strictly teach against the use of P5ths, and rightly so. Sorry for being ambiguous with this earlier - I didn't want to fill up this forum with the answer (which I'm probably doing now ). What type of music? Tonal music? Music that uses polyphony, monophony or homophony? Music that uses melody/harmony? If your going to use a key signature, then the ambiguity most certainly is going to be relevant, and unless your trying to achieve a neo-classical sound (such as mid-life Stravinsky), it's gonna inevitably be a bad thing! Why would you follow a key or use a key signature unless you plan on having a key center in the first place?Also, for the most part, open fifths do not 'imply' chords/keys, generally. They say in a bold statement 'IT IS THIS KEY/CHORD!!!' so dominantly that there isn't any way around it. I actually didn't mean that P5ths do this - if I said that I was wrong - I was refering to the specific instance in Rozovian's music. In quartal music (such as a lot of Ives and early/mid Schoenberg), the 'chord' Eb/Bb/F/C is quite pleasant. In anything using a key signature, though, unless your using it as a double suspension (which isn't the case in Rozovian's music), then it implies 3 key centers - Eb, Bb or F - which throws me as a listener off. Eb/Bb strongly implies Eb, Bb/F equally strongly implies Bb, and F/C equally represents F as your chord/key. Think about it - if you use open fifths, the overtone series that we hear over it (always there, just got to listen for it) completes the chord whether we want it to or not. With multiple and different 5ths playing, multiple overtones are completing different chords, so if there isn't a third to disambiguate what is really playing then the listener is, to put it frankly, screwed. (Interesting bit of trivia - before Schoenberg moved on to 12 tone music, he relied heavily on fifths and fourths to purposely throw the listener off of what key the piece was in, as he didn't want the listener to be in any key by the end!) Don't worry, I've been listening critically to it for the past 6 years of my life, and off hand for more like 8-10 years. I know what your getting at (and why I've expected your type of post for some time), and it is correct, to an extent. However, are people here writing post tonal music? I'm not finding anyone writing any pre- or post- 12 tone atonal music, nor do I find very much quartal music. Post-modern music is almost out of the question, too... I do find some minimalism, but, strangely enough, minimalism actually uses counterpoint much the same way as they did in the past, so proper counterpoint is still relevant (it was the composer's way to react against the post-Webern style - which was horrible, by the way). Counterpoint is most certainly relevant in these WIP's, so I'm going to make mention of it if I hear anything off with it (mostly P5ths, though). I agree completely! Thank god for that, as we have enough Bach to last a lifetime!! Palestrina's got enough stuff, as well. Personally, if composers had the tools back then that we have now, I'd say he's closer to writing late/neo romantic music (which is, in general, what the people listen to and enjoy today), and what you'll probably be doing if your posting in the WIP forums (and certainly if you've been posted on OC - I can't see them putting up any 'modern' mixes ). Romantic music did everything possible to stretch the rules of harmony to it's limits, oddly enough, often using older contrapuntal techniques! Hopefully, up at the top of this post will clear up why P5ths are, in fact, 'always' wrong. Of course, contrary motion doesn't always fix the problems... ... so I made quite a few suggestions, there. No, contrary motion isn't always the best idea, but it's often the easiest. Other techniques will work, but they may take some more fiddling, depending on what type of music your writing... You, too? I don't hear much dissonance either (except in passing at, like I said before, 1:13 - Eb/Bb/F/C involves 9ths and 13ths that clash with the Eb/Bb... but due to ambiguity, no one can really tell what is clashing with what!). The problem I hear is something that occurs horizantally, not vertically. It is the motion that is off, for me, not the harmonies...By the way, don't take this as a 'OMFG! YOU AREN"TZ AGREE WIT ME?!? STFU!!' post; I actually enjoyed writing it . I just wanted you to understand completely what I was saying, and hope that you can sympathize with me on the subject a little better after reading the mountain of text. If you still don't agree, then at least you know my side of the story Sorry, Rozovian, I actually came back to compare the two mixes and tell you what I thought of them (I said that on the last post, right?), but I wanted to clear that mess up (I talk about P5ths a lot when I critique music, so going in depth with the subject is sometimes necessary...). On the bright side, now you don't have to go to Wikipedia to find all this junk out !Okay, the mix is now wet to start with, then oddly enough drys out very quickly (in contrast to having a similar reverb throughout). I like that sound, it both cleans up the mix and adds depth at the same time. Nice. NOW I hear the P5ths that I talked about in the harmonies earlier ... it's in the pad at 1:28 - 1:55 (as well as other similar areas). I see what your going for, there, so could I make a suggestion? Build to the fifth at 1:32 using intervals that aren't 5ths, then hold the top note of the pads while the bottom moves like it does (when I say hold, restriking the same note works, too). You'll get a richer sound in the harmonies this way (it's a sound you get throughout your mix, anyhow, so it also is consistant with the rest of your remix). At 3:43, I hear more P5ths between an accompanying melody and the lead melody. It's hard to hear, so I don't know if it's groundbreaking... Sorry, I wouldn't be pointing out every one, except I just gave a rant on them . Also, it's building to a key change here, but it isn't working for me at the moment. Try to make the key change more convincing either by not building to it at all (the sudden contrast can make this change effective) or making the build more... subtle. Because it is a step above the original key, the subtle approach is very difficult to achieve, so I'd recommend the more 'abrupt' change, there. The mixing is much better than it was before. I'm surprised you could do that - I'm sure I could a lot about production by listening to your stuff (it's my bane, right now). Really, you know that I like this piece, so my comments are gonna be nitpicky, now. I want this to be as close to perfection as possible - that's why I even mention P5ths and the like. It's really good, right now, but I want it to be perfect! That's some good advice. I'm just trying to help, here, with the rant up above Good luck with this!

Hey, all! I obviously need to compress my files to an acceptible file size if I want anyone to listen to them. However, currently when I compress my files I find that I lose a lot of quality (I'm talking around 15 - 20 dbs). That's quite extreme for such a conversion, and the loss of quality is astounding. I can't post something here accurately with the loss being this extreme. So, I'm taking a 4:45 piece, exporting it from Reason 3 at 44.1 khz, 16 bit dithered (it comes out as a wav., and it sounds quite good at that level), then import it to Super and format it as an MP3 file, 44100 khz, 160 kbps, 16 bit, 2 channel, and it comes out terrible. It also is borderlining the limit for OC (roughly 5.8 megs, converted), so I can't just up the quality I understand that there is going to be some loss between the files, but the amount that I'm getting is ridiculous. I'd give a sample to show what I mean, but that'd be a 50meg file I'm posting, and I'm sure no one wants to deal with that Is there something I'm doing wrong with my conversion, or should I use a different program? If there are any other programs that I can use, could someone point me in the right direction? Thanks!

This is great! Starla's really improved dramatically from her last post (I guess 7 years does that to ya!)... I couldn't remember the source, at first, either... but when I DID hear it I realized that she transformed the harmonic material completely and did the melodic portions above! I am... very impressed. Everyone, download this please )

Wow, I never imagined it to sound like this! The genre isn't one I'm used to listening to, but it works very well here. You know, If you add reverb to the vocals, don't do too much... I like the dry sound they have, personally, because it seperates them from the rest of the wet mix... it also helps us hear the lyrics . I like how you fill out your mix at 1:17. It's like you hold back for some time, letting us have it later. Are you gonna keep the mix full for the second verse, or drop it down again? If you drop it down, be careful; I don't think the listeners would appreciate that drop in sound again. If you keep it full, again, be careful; there's probably gonna be a climax somewhere, and it'll make it difficult to achieve. Tricky waters to tread here - I trust you'll make it work. I don't think the guitar will help the mix... I like the electronica sound, right now. The guitars are too cliche and bland for the mix I'll be listening in, so keep goin'!

Ok, I'll lay down what I'm talking about as neat as I can (and hopefully you'll agree with me ) By the way, before I get hit with flak, I'm not talking about open fifths in general, just when they move together. The two leads you use at 1:13 is a very clear example of the parallel fifths I'm talking about. A parallel fifth is when two voices move from one fifth interval to another different fifth interval without any intervening intervals. For example, at 1:13 you slide from Eb/Bb to F/C, F/C to D/A, then finally D/A to Bb/F. The problems it causes actually varies from use to use, but there is always a problem, believe me. For example, the Eb & Bb implies a different key (Eb Major/Minor... can't tell without the third, of course). Open 5ths create ambiguity within the music because of their open quality... (Actually, I really can't tell what chord you want there - you've outlined Eb-Bb with the bass and F-C in the melody, creating Eb-Bb-F-C in this part). Also, you can always make a piece of music sound better at the parts with the parallel fifth by either changing the motion to counter motion, using 3rds and 6ths instead of fifths, alternating 5ths and another interval (like 3rds and 6ths ), moving one voice and not another, using a single voice, etc. Really, this is the biggest problem for me with parallel 5ths - there's always something that can be done that doesn't involve 5ths that just sounds better. I'd actually give some recommendations as to what, except the bass implies a different chord from the melody... It's really not too prevailant throughout the piece, just at that area in the melody... As for the harmonies... I can't hear the 5ths right now - either my ears are tired, you took them out without knowing or they were overtones that I heard and not actually in the music. I'm gonna give this a more critical listen tomorrow, compare it to you older versions, etc... I'm a bit tired, and I just thought I'd clear up my inane ranting about parallel fifths by ranting some more Really, I want to compare the two and give you actual feedback, but I gotta do it tomorrow!

Oh, I see. It does have that sound behind it. You've emulated that well, so take it to the next level! Break out the flute, clarinet, oboe and bassoon! Oh, and if you REALLY want the 'audience' effect, you need to put in some coughs at the quietest and most inappropriate moment... it seems that people always feel that's the most appropriate time to do it... x_x Waiting to hear more from you! Good luck!