Gario

Even though this is an old, old WIP, the OP bumped it... a few months ago, but still, he may be paying attention, and I wanted to review this one, anyhow, so here I go (Ironic that I just gave some flack to people reviewing old mixes a few days ago, yet here I am)... It's funny, I actually posted a WIP of this very song back when this was originally posted... and it was terrible, by the way. Maybe I'll re-do it completely sometime soon... The main thing that irks me is how bi-tonal this whole thing sounds. The texture does not go with the source material at all. Please move the texture so it fits with the material better. The same can be said about the bass drum sound you use - it's much like a tom in that it can be tunes, as well. Make it fit the music better. The old posts still hold, by the way, so even though they are over half a year old, they still hold (production, arrangement, etc.). Really, the main reason I'm posting here is simply because I wanted to give feedback back when I heard this last April, but I was too busy at the time. If your still out there, give us a ring, here

Thanks for clearing up the scale issue. Actually, it sounds like the Hungarian scale, except I think that has a raised 7th, as well lol, I guess we heard you wrong, there. I've heard that it works for some people to do things like that, but I'm sadly not one of em'. If I'm not fully aware of myself when writing, I create trash. Not saying that's true for everyone, however. I'm dead serious about singing what's in your head to yourself. It's a 'middle man' approach that almost completely gets rid of the 'guess and check' process, if done well. Think of what you want, hear it in your head, then sing it to yourself out loud. This gives your ear an auditory memory of what you want and it'll make inputting it into your music much easier. Also, while inputting the music into sonar, sing what your putting into the program to yourself. You'd be surprised at how often you catch yourself putting in the wrong notes, saving you some listening time. With practice, it'll become second nature. I must also emphasize that anyone can do this with practice; it's not about the type of voice you have or being pretty, it's about actually hearing the tunes without needing a keyboard or other instrument.Don't be surprised when you start singing to yourself in public and people stare at you like a madman; it's addicting and when you start, you can't stop

Heh, I wasn't gonna say anything about the date, there; I thought people would catch on... To those that are still coming here, here's some general advice. Look at the date of the last post. If it's an old thread (like this one was), I'd leave it alone, in general. The remixer probably isn't paying attention to it anymore, and the thread will get bumped to the top of the chart (like my post will do here in a second ), confusing those trying to critique WIPs... It's best to leave these things alone. Edit: So this doesn't pop to the top again, I'm using an edit, here. I'm just gonna clarify that I was emphasizing Rozovian point, and this was at the top when I posted, already. This thing's been getting a lot of attention, so I figured I'd try to help him steer people away from it, is all.

Hey, try singing parts to yourself before writing (or even while your writing). That's how I get my ideas. I'm no singer, really, but it really helps when you sing vs imagining the notes. It's also more fun I'm noticing that this is your biggest hurdle right now. Personally, if it's really difficult for you to move on, then I say move on. I mean to another piece, here. I've been in this rut before, and sometimes it's best to move to something else. Often, ideas about your old music will generate from new mixes, or when your skill develops. Don't give up on something, just give it a break. Statistically speaking, here, you won't. Seriously, it comes out to around 99% junk and 1% sweetness... or so I hear, anyway. I can't tell from experience. I'm sure that composing while drunk is fun, though, so if you'd like try it and tell me how it goes BTW, I've got a quick question, here. What is a Spanish Phrygian chord/scale? I've heard a long time ago in passing that it was something like a open 5th with a 7b and 9b above, but when it comes to chord labels like that, I'm terrible. Thx.

Nutritious is a good OC remixer, so if he critiques a mix, it generally means it's worth critiquing in the first place. That's good, yeah? Obviously, with all of us hammering your song, you can take crits as they are - something to help you. It's always nice to have a remixer come in and give feedback, since they've gone through the J's before I agree with him on the panning; it's too extreme when you use it. We need some more centering in the mix, else it scares people away. Use panning - it's a great tool - just not to the extreme that it is used. I didn't hear it before 'cause my headphones were set to 'Mono' ... My take on starting many new projects... well, it depends on what you feel you need to work on. If it's the actual 'arrangement' portion, then starting many new mixes will indeed help much more than beating on a single one down. On the other hand, if your looking at working on production then perfecting a single piece would be much better practice. Most new people do need to work on arrangement before production, so I see what Nutritious was saying here. I personally would recommend the middle road here - work on new music (for the arrangement value) while perfecting a single piece of your choice. The best of both worlds, right? Also, it sometimes helps to step away from a piece for a while and come back, if ideas aren't coming for you

This is sounding a whole lot better, man! Seriously! This is beginning to have an energy behind it that I can't quite describe... except the ending... *coughcopeoutcough* Really, I'm glad Hoboka got on my case about the dissonance, 'cause when you changed the swells around, it came together really, really well. The added harmony also fits perfectly, as well. It fills the soundscape much better now (which was something that bothered me about this for a while). Nice changes there I don't feel it loses an edge when the bass moves up, but I'll tell you right now, don't move it farther down. If you move the swells down, the overtones will muddy the entire mix, sending it all to hell. Be careful with bass instruments - if they're too low or loud, the overtones will create a 'sonic dissonance' (made up term - dissonance that isn't 'written' but can be heard) that you won't be able to fix. At 1:11, the melody is still very off. I've made comments about this part before, so those comments still hold.Yes, the ending is crap right now, and you know it. Look at the new harmony instrument you've added - you can put an emphasis on it (or another instrument) to create a change in texture. When you move on with this, try not to move into your old texture - it's been playing for some time. You'll need to do something a bit more fresh if you want people to stay interested in this. Just a tip when you continue Edit: Cripes!! I didn't even hear any panning! The headphones I'm using we're set on 'Mono'! Oops, I've got to give this another go in a bit! SlyGeN, about the video I posted - sorry about the quality. I just put something up there... I'll need to post something from DuFay or something later, as becaus as the piece is more contemporary than the style, it blends the harmonic style with the contrapuntal one. That's probably why you hear it moving in and out of minor. I'll try to make myself a bit clearer than this video

Actually, this is the piece I was thinking of... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK6-ABKvONE This is before day 1. It represents CHAOS!! BTW - this was written in 1802... over 20 years before Beethoven wrote the 9th. Very interesting, considering how complex this thing is.

lol... Ok, I didn't get into the whole blogging thing until a short while ago, so I'm pretty 'stupid' as far as that is concerned... Thanks for the 'Benefit of the doubt'! And, after reading that, I see what you mean about his antiperformer-ism. I agree with some of what he says there (performers that only can mimick other styles or have no style shouldn't be given that much respect...), but if a performer can truely change a piece of music into something that is their own, then they should really be given some respect, there. In fact, any performer that I've met with that amount of talent also have the ability to compose music as well... they merely choose not to. Think about that one.

Thanks, Xenon, for clearing up my noobish question Wait, your saying the original poster said those things? Where? I can't find those comments anywhere... Is that sarcasm?? OMG!lol... And yes, I personally believe we're sacred, but telling performers that is... well... ...that's how my nose got broken for the first time... EDIT: No, no, I really did mean 'What does OP mean?'. Seriously. I'm that bad.

Well, I don't have any exact samples of music from 1250 - 1550 off the top of my head, but I can think of an example later using an older style. Look up Haydn's oratory 'The Creation' and check out the first movement. Try to analyze it harmonically... it'll blow your brain out. Haydn used earlier contrapuntal writing vs the harmonic style of his time to achieve the sound he had. Analyzing this piece as a giant counterpoint exercise, it makes a whole lot more sense. I might try to find a better example later (one that is actually from the time period...). Compare the sound from this to another piece in minor. Same chords, same notes, but the different usage gives the piece a modal (not harmonic) feel. This is the difference I'm talking about ... Perhaps we should move this topic to another thread? This is the second thread I've helped take off topic here in a week ... Sorry, Hewhoisiam; I've done it again

I don't know what the OP stands for, but I've heard that opinion before, as well... It comes from an older idea the the Composer is sacred, and that no one should/could ever hear anything as good or better than the original writer. That's a romantic ideal, at best... It's completely unrealistic, at worst, IMHO. I've heard a lot about this subject from some of the greatest performers in the world, so take it or leave it

Well I've had this idea in my head for some time, so I'll spill it for you all. A decent performer performs other music either because they love music but can't write their own, needs the practice or just wants to enjoy themselves. An incredible performer, however... With the best in the world, they perform music in order to allow their vision of what the piece should sound like come alive. Using a combination of theory and feel, they take the score of something and use it as a blueprint for their own ideas. Van Cliburn, for example, took Chopin's Revolution etude and changed it from a fast pace action piece into a dirge in a live performance that he did some time ago. It was amazing, not because of what he played, but because of his interpretation of it. I heard Schick talk about this very subject. He spoke of performing as another form of composing, but instead of writing original music down, the performer brings out dormant ideas from music that is already written. Hope this gives some of you performers some ideas!

Well, this is coming from someone with a shitload of midi writing experience; this isn't that bad. However, you need to work with your velocities a whole lot more. By the sound of things, you don't mess with your velocities in order to create dynamics. This is the single most common problem that I run across when listening to midi writing. Please use them to their fullest. It may sound strange, but you need some form of reverb to beef the sound up in the music. A trick that I use to emulate reverb in midi is creating multiple tracks of the same tune, moving each new track about a 16th ahead of the previous, toning the volume down and detuning the sound. Believe me, it makes a world of difference. Here are some examples of that. Without any reverb: http://www.box.net/shared/9y0ze7ub71 With reverb: http://www.box.net/shared/vzmbet7h4v By the way, I use SBL for the fonts, so the GM sounds muddy... SBL: http://www.box.net/shared/f8jo7imdyt I hope this helps you midi future!

Really, I like the name you've got there... I don't know why, though... Nice chiptune there. I love that old NES sound, and this fits the bill. I really like how you reserved the triangle for a treble sound later rather than use it for the bass. It's different. Nice work!

I've seen people mixing this from time to time in the WIP forums... but nothing that really stands out, as of yet (most recently Nekofrog had something like this, but it's unfinished, and he hasn't really settled on what he's doing with it, yet). I agree, though. This is a great song, and it needs remixing. By the power of Arek the Absolute, Sinistral four, ASSEMBLE!!!

Personally, I'd try to mesh the styles so that from one song to the next there is contrast. Putting similar styles together runs the risk of getting the listener bored before finishing the album... ... then again, keeping things continuously different also runs the risk of losing the listener completely after every change (which would be very frequent if set up like I suggested)... It's a call you've got to make for yourself, there

No Buttville? No Guitar solo? NO GUITAR SOLO?!?!? WATZ THS SHAAAAAT~!!!! lol, jk. No source, but if I recall, the source was pretty simple to start with, so... yeah. The bass sample you use sounds very GM. I'd find something else for that. One of the snare samples sounds like the head of the instrument wasn't tightened properly... I notice you use that sample a lot in your mixes. Please stay away from it - it sounds like a sample of a high school snare drum. Ick. The tempo is laid back, but the mix you made calls for a faster pace. Experiment with the tempo and see if you agree. For me, the song didn't start until 1:36. Before that, it was a little boring... It could start there, and extend past the written ending and I don't know if the first 1:36 would be missed that much. After that point, though, it starts sounding pretty good. At 1:36 - 2:28, I mean it when I say the piece could start here. This would be an excellent introduction to it. Because of the, erm, shortness of the source, you'll need a lot of material like this to make this song an acceptable length for OC. It's a good section; make it your first When 2:28 comes rolling in, it gets a lot heavier (and cooler). I enjoy how thick the mix sounds here in contrast to the proceeding section. It sounds like it needs to be longer... Eh, I use Reason; it seems to work for me. Use whatever is comfortable for you (trying to swat the angry wasps away...)BTW - I NEEDS MOAR GUITAR SOLO!

I got so distracted on this thread I almost forgot there was music on here! Oops, I'll give a critique of V5 now . I like the drums on this version much better; they're more varied and interesting. The break is even better, as well, due to the 'echo' sound that brings it in As I mentioned before, the dissonance is caused by your swelling bass. It doesn't move when the rest of the music does. Have that thing move according to what harmonies you'd like to represent, it'll help the piece as a whole. Listen to 0:48 for the first example of when this is a problem, but it continues throughout the entire song. The lead at 1:10 is off. Move the whole thing up a perfect 4th, to the same notes as the next part. If you need some variety, mess with something else (like the timbre), not the notes in this case. It leaps around from the correctly pitched tune to the incorrectly pitched tune, back and forth for a while. I'd recommend shortening this to a single repetition and move on. I've always liked the Egyption-like melody at 1:48. Just thought I'd let you know At 2:11, you do the same thing as earlier. I'd vary it a little bit from the last one. I say again, it sounds like it wants to keep going Keep it up; we're still listening to your track, here! We're on the same boat, there. I've got theory/comp chops, and I'm getting better at mixing, but it's still sub-par compared to the other mixers on the site. Post something - I'm sure someone with good mixing abilities will try to help you out (it's what I'm doin' ) I don't know what the other person was talking about, there. They have the same key signatures and things, so you were probably right in correcting him......although if you talk about how each is used, technically they are different. Minor is a harmonic phenomena, based on the theory and practice of ~1600 - 1900, while Aeolian is based on the contrapuntal practice of ~1250 - 1550. If you use the key/mode as it should be used, then the music produced will sound very different. It's like the fact that A# and Bb are the same note, but in the context of the music they mean something different, so they will sound different to the listener. It's a small detail, but as it looks like your into theory, SlyGeN, I want to keep things interesting ...

Damn, this tread got hot real quick! I was gonna respond earlier to Hoboka, but it filled up with 7 more threads! I see what your calling dissonant, Hoboka... I understand the mix up, there. The reason I didn't (not 'couldn't', by the way) hear it was because I create that clash purposefully all the time in my own music. The bass doesn't move while the rest of the notes (melody and the rest of the harmony) do. Perhaps not as much in this mix, but it often is a great way to create light tension. My ears have gotten so used to hearing this dissonance I really don't hear it as such anymore. I listen to music linearly (eg how the music works in motion, not harmonically, per se), so sometimes I miss certain things when I listen. Music is an interesting subject, in that a lot of it is really subjective. Listening is one of those factors; I hear the music differently than other people do, based on my listening history (everyone listens to things differently, BTW). If I miss something in a listen through, it's because my ears were listening for something else (or interpreted the music differently). That's why I ask people for what they hear - I need different ears to hear different things, not because I ar an stupid, but because my ears tend to overwrite some things to hear others Ok, now that I'm aware of it, it's the swell that's causing the dissonance. The reason Hoboka believed it was the other instruments is because as the deepest bass instrument the swell will automatically sound like the 'correct' instrument - it's supposed to define the key. It doesn't do this very well here; I *cough sort of cough* agree with Hoboka about the dissonance, but to fix it, you'll need to change the swell instrument's notes to match the harmony, not the popcorn instrument so much... BTW, in the new mix, the added bass notes are off. Have them match the harmony a bit better - those are dissonances that I am aware of Heh heh, if you want to go there, I'd call it C Ionian... SLyGeN is right about the transposition thing. BTW, a real transposition (for those that don't know) is when a motive or idea's notes are transposed exactly the same amount, note for note, despite the key it's in. It's distinguished from a tonal transposition, which is when the idea's notes are moved up or down in relation to the key or mode it's in. He didn't clarify, so I wanted to give you an idea as to why it could be significant (possibly give you some ideas to use for your own mix )

HahahAhaHAhaHA!!! Thought I forgot about you, eh? THINK AGAIN!!! BLEAH!! Ok, giving this a go, now... Sounds good, I like the whistle you've included. Sounds like Frog It could use some reverb, though... it sounds a touch dry. Other than that, the only other thing I have to say is that the melody is often a little low... When the flute comes in, though, it pierces great. It needs reverb though Sounds great! I think it's very, very close. I'd be surprised if your next version wasn't the final! Great job, and a pleasure being hear to hear it through! Edit: While writing this, you've sent it in. I think it sounds good, so I wish you the best!

Ya, this piece is difficult to hear the 'key' because it isn't in one - in the traditional sense. It's in the old Phrygian church mode - 1 - 2b - 3b - 4 - 5 - 6b - 7b - 8(1) - Those are the scale degrees. Another way to think about it is to start on the 'E' and play all of the white keys up to the next 'E'. That's why I'm such an advocate of Counterpoint - weird scales don't affect a thing, whereas in Harmony... Actually, Hoboka, I don't hear that much 'dissonance' in this... Point out where; I'd like to hear what your talking about. Are you sure it's not the scale integrated in the music? Take this into account when (if) you mess around with the chords - you'll be surprised how much this'll help. Listening to this again, I like the break better than before. No more woos The synth DOES sound like Ultima Underworld, though... I feel the break should feel tense, but not intense, if you know what I mean. Try building up to the break, then suddenly calming down, leading into the next part better. The bass could use some quick notes every so often to build up the sonic field a little bit... Just a few, though. The end sounds like it's building up to really explode on the listener, but then it ends... It leaves me feeling empty... Add some more where it just unloads on the listener. It's what we (well, I) want I didn't even think about the key of the piece. I hope my comment will help out in some way.

Hell, I want to participate!! It's not everyday that I find a project that still has openings! I can do a mix of Wily Machine (as no one else is taking it)... if k-wix will let me, of course BTW - I agree with Xenon... Why isn't Shnabub on this?!

Ha, this SOUNDS like it could be Iris' theme / Sinistral battle, but it's a VERY interpretive mix. It's kept my interest - I'll keep an ear on this one. BTW - I thought this was cool in the OHC, too... but didn't seem to fit the theme too well to me

You know, I had the same problem as a kid. You know my solution? I smashed em' in anyway... Terrible advice, by the way. Don't follow my mistakes.

This is a favorite of mine, to say the least. I've done countless speed runs of X-com - UFO defense to this song (and only this song!), and I still can't get tired of it. Perfect.