Kenogu Labz
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Posts posted by Kenogu Labz
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If you're using the term perfection, subjectivity has to take a second seat to objectivity. If music is wholly subjective, perfection is undefined, as there is no standard by which perfection can be measured.
Pick your terminology well in this discussion.
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Distinguish, perhaps, between mistakes and imperfections. One is a failure of the performer, one is intrinsic to performed art or the medium by which it is conveyed.
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9 minutes ago, Brandon Strader said:
Scapegoating, confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, we can throw around any number of terms of what our opposition does, but that is not in any way productive
It is productive insofar as it removes the need for this discussion to be carried on further if you ramble and rant and rave and refuse to discuss the topic with one iota of reason. Dredging up your inconsistencies and fallacies simply shows you are incapable of holding an argument that actually states anything of value. Pure and simple.
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3 minutes ago, Brandon Strader said:
Trying to say I willingly cooperated in an illegal music ring isn't really going to make me feel better about adopting further questionable things. Maybe I'd be ok with this if the publishers were notified and gave their approval. Maybe I'd be ok with this if every artist was notified through email and were asked their opinion, before the monetization had taken place. Right now it looks like the decision is set in stone but I'll hold out hope for further details about what specifically is going to be monetized, whether we can opt out, etc from Dave. Or maybe it'll be dropped entirely.
On this point: Hooold on. Slow down. You have to take the time to understand the balancing act of copyright law with respect to derivative works before you start getting existential about your involvement.
Take, for example, Weird Al. He continues to make his parodies - which, I believe, fall under the same class of work as OCR's arrangements. On some occasions, the artists will let him know he is not permitted to use their work, and guess what? He moves on.
The key here is that copyright law requires the company itself to be responsible for choosing if and when it needs to defend that copyright. Unlike trademarks, they are not forced to act on derivative works to preserve that copyright. A whole industry of music parodies suspends on this balancing act. OCR does much the same, making sure we stay in favor (see Balance and Ruin!) and continue to positively represent the original works. We trust that these companies have no motivation to attempt litigation; if they do, then yeah, we'll have to worry, but so will the rest of the industry as well, most likely.
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18 minutes ago, Brandon Strader said:
They're literally not licensing the music owned by copyright holders. If that's not illegal, I don't know what is. And they've said what OCR has done all along has been illegal according to them, so why nonchalantly stack more illegal offenses on top of that? Either way I'm not interested in any particular user's interpretation of the law. I've asked my questions and I've said what the result of the answers to those questions would be.
Being exploited and being dishonest with us, they're also trying to do that to the copyright holders, none of it is right.
(Speaking purely from memory and not having done any personal study on this, so I apologize if there is misinformation here.)
My understanding is as follows:
Licenses aren't necessarily required if you are not profiting from the derivative works. The companies must choose to prosecute for violations, and DjP already has a Fair Use defense lined up and ready if that ever does occur (although the legal fees may still cause problems on OCR's side). They can also choose to preclude direct legal action by threatening a C&D, thus hoping to resolve the issue without hauling things into court.
On YouTube, companies have a more direct form of action they can take to act on their copyright claim by simply leveraging DMCA to request the content by removed. YouTube then has its own system by which the content owner can make appeals, and have the video restored if proper proof of originality can be provided. YouTube's system is actually heavily balanced towards the companies of the original work, something that has caused a heavy ruckus in recent years, since even unrelated or clearly Fair Use videos can be repeatedly taken down with no consequence for those making the claims.
Either way, in cases like this, the company must feel that it has need to pursue litigation for violating that copyright. OCR has operated on this premise both on its own site and on YouTube. To those companies, I do not believe they would see a fundamental difference in placing ads before the video and in leveraging banner ads around the video. I don't see why this would lead to any greater legal threat to OCR than we previously had.
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1 hour ago, Brandon Strader said:
No answers.....come on. This is important. I can guarantee you that whether my mixes stay on the site or projects continue hinges on the answer to the 2nd question. I refuse to let people who don't respect me profit from my work.
I wouldn't recommend trying to speak to legality without first examining fair use law.
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It feels to me like the entire tone of this conversation has been sour and combative from the start, and that has handicapped it extensively.
I've been on the sidelines of OCR going nigh on 10 years now, if my guess is correct, and around 7 years of meager periodic participation. During that time, I've observed a lot of DjP: what motivates him, how he thinks, what he's concerned about and studied. I know he's spent a while learning about Fair Use and the morass of copyright law surrounding it, enough to hold some level of competence in discussions regarding it, especially where OCR's welfare is concerned.
So, when this point of discussion comes up, my first thought is: "Hey, they're probably looking for more ways to support and expand the site." Because I know the motivations and inclinations of those involved, my sense of risk in this move is low. My presupposition - based on my prior knowledge of the people and circumstances - is positive. Then the change can be questioned and discussed gently and with the trust that best intentions are in mind on all sides.
What concerns me more than anything in this conversation is that DjP is being marked out as a money-grubbing scammer, who's using the hard work of this site's musicians just to make a buck, which... doesn't fit with anything I've seen over the last several years. So why does that presumption underlie the entire conversation at hand?
- Chernabogue, Flexstyle, timaeus222 and 1 other
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2 minutes ago, Neblix said:
As I've said like 4 times before on this thread, invoking back-handed legal tactics on your community members is the best way to kill member retention and damage your reputation. OCR is not just a business. It's a community; furthermore, its community is its business, and appeasing the desires of its community at least through compromise is a necessary factor in keeping it running smoothly.
Understood, and agreed. Was simply responding to Garde:
QuoteIt really comes down to what people consented to in the first place when they gave you that free music for distributing.
They consented to exactly what is listed in the OCR submission agreement. Whether they now wish to re-evaluate the extent of that agreement is a different matter.
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Legal agreement is binding 'consent' (good golly do I hate the modern misuse of that word).
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I'd also be curious if some are simply arguing from a reason such as the following:
QuoteI don't want to have ads interspersed before I get to listen to a remix.
This is a consumer motivation as opposed to a stakeholder motivation.
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Not arguing that if the ReMixers could earn money from their arrangements, they should. But then this site probably wouldn't exist in its current form, and would be more of an enthusiast's board or something.
However, when taken with current copyright law, such a thing is difficult to accomplish, at best. So we have instead the option to give the ReMixers opportunities to be better showcased within the context of the site. It's indirect compensation, at best, but it's all that can be provided.
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Not exactly, Brandon.
Funds used for compensating staff would be for expanding the functional capabilities of the site, not the content hosted within site. There is a fundamental difference, there, one that a 501c3 is probably required to account for. Those are two orthogonal aspects of OCR - the media itself, and the construct it sits within.
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If showing ads on YouTube has a moral thread to it that's fundamentally different from displaying ads on the side of a web page, please explain the reasoning for that. I've seen no-one in this discussion say anything more than 'it feels like it's more personal on a video instead of a page.' Feelings do not govern law or morality.
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The primary recurring argument I've seen is that, "YouTube ads feel different than web ads." No more, and no less.
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Given how frequently OCR videos are likely embedded (analytics, anyone?), I'd expect this is actually one of the only effective ways to monetize these days. Unless you really want to make them click through with a 'this video is not available to watch embedded' link.
Seriously, this entire conversation is like stepping through the looking glass. The objections are simply baffling, based on emotional panic and not on any sort of concrete reason. Good grief.
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RuuushJeeeeeeet!
Awesome to see you join the roster here, and even moreso to see it under yet another excellent Famicom chiptune. The attention to detail is, as always, impeccable. Your percussion is as strong as ever, and the composition is delightfully rich for such a limited palette. Glad to hear you continuing to stretch the platform to its peak, and looking forward to hearing more from you here!
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Oh wow, that music. This might be the first Sonic game that actually has me intrigued.
Also, the drop dash may just be brilliant, in that it solves the enormous problem of Sonic's velocity being lost when he falls like that (if I recall correctly). Maybe this'll actually be fast for once.
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17 hours ago, AngelCityOutlaw said:
I am not really a fan of those tracks either. In my opinion, they don't really fit in an MMO game and nothing I've heard off this soundtrack holds a candle to even XIII's music.
You're free to disagree, of course, but your logic here makes no sense. If it were just a tribute and not theft, there would be no reason to deny ever hearing the song - you would just say, "yeah, it's a tribute". VGM composers have openly admitted to tributes before, actually. Lance Lenhart has said on YouTube in the past that the Twisted Metal III theme was inspired by "Fuel" by Metallica, which it so obviously is.
It's its own thing. There are some very memorable tracks, and many not so much. It's also got a lot more volume than most other FF soundtracks, clocking in at 12+ hours of music for A Realm Reborn and Heavensward (not to mention the tracks reused from the original release), so the goodness has a lot more room to be spread out in. Overall, it works superbly in the context of the game; it may not fit personal taste, and that's understandable, but it might grow on you a bit when you're in the heat of battle, facing the gradually escalating fight with Titan, or facing a goblin-esque mechanical labyrinth. It felt weird when I first heard it, but it works out splendidly when used in its context.
As for Soken: agreed, that's the caveat that has me puzzled and unable to fully trust this wasn't stolen. Even if he hadn't heard the song, it would be in good taste and humility to recognize that there is indeed that similarity there.
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On 3/1/2016 at 6:01 PM, AngelCityOutlaw said:
If anything, it just proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Final Fantasy music ain't what it used to be.
Please listen to the rest of the soundtrack to A Realm Reborn (and some of the carry-overs from the original release), as well as Heavensward. Then form a full opinion.
The majority of the soundtrack is strongly instrumental with this more metal style only being used in choice scenarios, usually for Primal fights: the classic summons are used in this world as godlike defenders of the world's beast races, and starting with Titan, there are a lot of lyrical metal or electronica songs based around the primal's theme and that of their patron race. Take, for example, the theme to one of the Alexander fights released recently.
Or, perhaps, try out the first theme I know of in the game that had this tone shift, the five-stage theme to the primal Titan's fight:
All that detail to say: yes, it's a change, but I think it's one that's been implemented tastefully and to excellent tonal effect in the game itself. Even if you dislike those tracks, the rest of the soundtrack may be more fitting to personal taste. Or not. Just don't take a couple of samples and assume it represents the whole, especially when a wide variety is represented in the source.
As to the original topic at hand... yeah, I understand the theft argument. There is certainly strong similarity in tone, perhaps a nod to the 'Worlds Collide' opening verses, but it diverges fairly strongly after that that. A tribute, perhaps - and one that should probably be affirmed and recognized by Soken, not denied - but at most just that, a tribute and not outright theft.
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Ahh, excellent! The original tracks are two of my favorites from the game, and this does supreme justice to the source material. Funny enough, I never even noticed the common motif thread between the two until I heard them blended together here. Nicely done!
- djpretzel and Lemonectric
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Some potentially helpful points of reference:
- Reviews, sorted by number of replies
- Reviews, sorted by number of topic views
- YouTube uploads, sorted by 'Most Popular'
Personal Nomination
Prince of Darkness: Prancing Dad - So fantastic, it forced a change in submission rules.
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Wow. This is the gentlest reception of 'moved cheese' I have ever seen.
Great job, guys! This whole migration's looking like it went really smoothly.
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CRIMSON SHROUD!
I almost forgot about this! It's a relatively small game designed by Yasumi Matsuno (Ivalice Alliance + Tactics Ogre), but based on emulating the aesthetic of a tabletop adventure. A fun experiment, if nothing else, and it's got one of Hitoshi Sakimoto (and co.)'s
, in my opinion.did a brief recommendation of it, and since the normal trailer for the game has no gameplay footage, I figure it's a better demonstration.
Compiling database of games including chant
in General Discussion
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