djpretzel
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Is OCR a registered nonprofit? Is OCR any kind of registered entity beyond a registered website? With all this money being donated to Kickstarter, it would be nice for people to know these kinds of things. Being a nonprofit guarantees a certain level of transparency so people could say "Oh, 85% of OCR's income is used for the website." As opposed to "Oh, 15% of OCR's income is used for the website and 85% is used for strippers." Also seems useful for the long-term viability of an OCR that could survive should something happen to djp.
OCR is currently a sole-proprietorship LLC. We are not-for-profit in the sense that we are bound by the terms of our own content policy, mentioned above. At present, if I die OCR would be treated like anything else I own and would pass to my spouse, and then next of kin, etc. according w/ Virginia state law. I'm thinking most people donating don't care about any of that, actually, but since you asked... At some point in the future we may change our legal entity and/or construct a formal will that has more detail, but you know, I kinda like to spend MOST of my time posting mixes and improving the website...
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Now, a couple of questions I have, related to the kickstarter.
- The $250 reward offers two signed albums amongst other things. The $1 000 reward offers "ten bonus copies" of the album, plus previous rewards. Does this mean 2 signed albums plus 10 regular albums, or 2 and 8, or 10 signed, or what? (Semantics)
- The $500 reward offers a granted remix request. What are the rules for such a request? Is a medley from a single game allowed, for instance? Or will each request just be reviewed later on?
First off, thanks for your measured response. Secondly, in terms of us not thinking it through enough - hindsight is always 20/20, we did think a lot of it through, this is our first go-round, we've all got full-time jobs, etc. I don't feel like there was a significant failure or inexplicable lack of foresight on our part, but what do I know.
Quick answers:
- For the $1000 reward, we will ask backers what they prefer regarding signing. If they want each copy signed, that's fine. It's twelve copies total - two from the $500 reward plus ten bonus copies.
- I think our general guideline here is just gonna be "within reason" - a few songs from one game, or a mashup of two songs from two games seeems reasonable to me. A ten-song mega-medley, or a mashup of 4 songs from 4 games, does not. Generally speaking, backers should look to existing mixes on OCR as examples of what we would consider as reasonable, as ideally we'd want to post the end result to the site.
A final note on Vampire Variations...
It occurs to me that what some people might be waiting for is an apology, and if that's the case, I'm definitely sorry if you've feel that I or OCR have been misleading or unclear. However, I don't believe we've been unfair. Here's the difference between OCR and any other entity that I'm aware of, be it an individual or a group of individuals: We have a public content policy that specifically prohibits us from profiting:
http://ocremix.org/info/Content_Policy
"This license explicitly prohibits OverClocked ReMix from distributing submitted materials for for-profit endeavors. All revenue generated by advertising presented in the context of submitted materials will be used for costs directly associated with the operation and promotion of OverClocked ReMix.-
We worked with the community to draft this policy
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We have transparent revision history for this policy (since it's in our wiki)
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We are bound by this policy to the exact same extent that artists are
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We are proud of this policy and believe it reflects our 12-year history & supports our future goals
Official OCR albums - like Final Fantasy 6: Balance & Ruin - are covered by this policy, so we KNOW that they are limited in this regard. Anyone else... who the hell knows? This is part of why we WANT albums to be official in the first place. I like to be a trusting person, I really do, but promises made on forums are not nearly so clear, or binding. We have tied our own hands behind our backs for a reason, and we have no reason to trust anyone who hasn't done so themselves. So if you're looking for an explanation as to why there is a disparity in our advice, or our trust levels, there you have it. I apologize for not making this point clear earlier, which may have saved some time, but I've been sick all week, my brain's been fuzzy, and the kickstarter has taken a lot of our free time.
This, however, is the single biggest & best explanation I can provide. I stand behind it 100%.
- For the $1000 reward, we will ask backers what they prefer regarding signing. If they want each copy signed, that's fine. It's twelve copies total - two from the $500 reward plus ten bonus copies.
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Here's what I think is happening: You have no idea this would happen, and you probably think you're gonna line your pockets while other people do the work. Everything is nice when it's all free and innocent, but when you start getting into large dollar amounts (100% of which are supposed to go to one specific thing) you run into some issues. You can spin this all you want and get into that typical mega defensive mode where you blindly battle the forces of anti-OCR to save the day, but as that dollar amount grows, so does the issue of where it's gonna go. You know that all the costs of production will not come close to the now $50k that's been raised.
Remember, this kickstarter is for the FF6 project ONLY, not for OCR. It's not a "help OCR" fundraiser. If you fall back to "everyone is jealous cuz I got $50k" you're gonna be spinning on your ass when Square shuts you down like that they did that "FREE RELEASE" chrono trigger remake that was on kickstarter. Like I keep saying, being defensive isn't going to get you anywhere in a situation like this, being CAREFUL is what's needed.
I'm really disappointed you think that. We've met in person, probably will meet again at MAG, we've spoken in the past... I don't know what I've done or haven't done to make that sort of impression, but I'm happy it's not shared by those who know me better.
We had NO idea it was going to reach $15k in the first DAY, and keep going from there, that's certainly true. We DID think it might exceed the target - who knows? - and as we've mentioned, we envisioned excess funds would go partially to helping the site - which in turn DOES actually help the album, by the way. This was all disclosed to artists IN ADVANCE of the kickstarter going live, clearly, and there was a chance for comment/discussion. You yourself CHIMED IN on this private thread (I will not repeat your statement here), so you have absolutely no excuse whatsoever for making these statements about the what the kickstarter is for, or characterizing our expectations.
Either you can't read, you didn't read, or you're intentionally misrepresenting the facts aka lying.
Which is it, seriously?
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Gotta watch out. The stuff that's in the vid doesn't come close to costing even the original $15k that the kickstarter was for. If this money is gonna go lining some peoples pockets under the guise of "site costs" then I'm gonna be dropping out ASAP. I don't work for free so that someone else can make a modest profit.
Andreas, I hope you're just semi-trolling here, as you've been known to do, as opposed to ACTUALLY suggesting what would be unethical in the extreme on our part - specifically MY part, since I manage all OCR finances directly?
Let me just speak to this briefly... OverClocked ReMix, LLC is a sole proprietorship in my name. I take all aspects of its operation VERY seriously... so seriously, in fact, that it's usually the opposite scenario - we're being criticized for too MUCH planning, management, policy, etc. It sometimes seems like you can't win, either way. At any rate, all OC ReMix funds are managed in a separate savings account & tracked separately from my personal finances, for clear auditability. Likewise, I've got my own personal PayPal account that is completely separate from the OC ReMix PayPal account. It's disappointing after exerting a lot of effort to make sure all T's are crossed and I's dotted to have someone suggesting we would, after twelve years of operation & six years of being self-hosted and distinct from ZTNET (i.e. managing the servers & money ourselves), suddenly break form and ruin all of that effort.
Here's what I think is happening: People are seeing a large dollar amount and getting a little batty in the brain, through some misdirected sense of jealousy or who knows what. We're still us, no aspect of how site funds are managed will change as a result of this process, and the only end result is going to be improvement to the album itself & OCR at large.
Period.
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Until everyone printing albums starts publicizing their bank statements, there won't truly be accountability anywhere. I'm not saying I don't trust your word -- I do, but I also trusted the word of the people running VV.
Okay, but that's different from any of my responses being *inaccurate*, right? As in, you're more trusting than I am, and that's what it basically amounts to? Please remember that on these sorts of topics, it's not as much about my personal level of trust - I feel that I need to be more risk-adverse to look out for & protect OC ReMix as a whole...
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I just want to point out that all of the answers given concerning the Vampire Variations situation were completely inaccurate.
Vampire Variations was going to be a 2 disc professional print for a donation of $8 each, whereas FF6 is going to be 4 discs for $50.
I can't help but feel slightly peeved at the way this was answered, and also wouldn't mind knowing the actual print cost per disc of FF6 when that information is available.
In that thread djp said they should price VV at "2 to 4 dollars"... shouldn't it be reasonable then that this 4-disc album could have been priced at 4 to 8 dollars?
Which answer was completely inaccurate? You said all of them were, then failed to cite a single one. It's your right to be peeved, but I'm failing to see the inaccuracy. This kickstarter is supporting OCR as a whole, in addition to printing an album. My answer about accountability remains true, as does my statement that no one HAS to follow our/my advice, and the only repercussion to not doing so would be degree of promotion by OCR. Where's the inaccuracy? If you're going to say something is wrong, and then not explain why, that's a conversation best had in private with me, right? The pricing we suggested was to avoid ANY possible overhead margins. That's not our goal w/ this kickstarter, and we've explained that elsewhere. If you want to be antagonistic about a topic that's already been covered, in public, and make claims that our responses are "inaccurate" just know that I'll certainly remember this unnecessary and redundant drama-bait.
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Sure is...
Anyway, I thought that for a $10,000 contribution I'd get more than dinner with DJP.
Will you continue to offer sales even if people don't buy through the Kickstarter? I am guessing that depends on availability and demand (since Kickstarter is pretty much a preorder page) but I'm curious. Thanks,
There are no plans to do so; this is a one-off fundraiser to support the album & the site, not a foray into operating as any sort of store/marketplace/etc. I don't know exactly what the future has in store but I can say with total confidence that this will be your single best chance of obtaining a physical copy of this album. I know for some that might be a bit of a bummer, and I apologize if the timing or circumstances aren't right, but the music itself will be free in perpetuity, so hopefully that's some consolation.
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Also...I've said this before and I'll say it again: there is nothing in OCR's mandate that says "we actively support contemptuous behavior towards our fellow remixers who aren't as good as the veterans." THIS is why there are so many bitter people here djpretzel..
I thought it was because we're on the Internet!?
Also, maybe I'm out of touch or something, but I don't feel like we've got a disproportionate number of bitter people. If anything, we may not even be making our quota...I completely agree we should strive to be our best, and that means minimizing or preferably negating any contempt or condescension based on experience or talent, but we do often need to directly address those traits, and sometimes even TALKING about them can be misconstrued as condescension and/or contempt. I cannot fix human nature, but for my own part I do make efforts to direct it & definitely want the spirit of the community to be open.
If you're just referring to the initially private nature of this album, and that's it, I'll again reiterate that I think BOTH models work, and that album directors should have the freedom to hand-pick, run open contests, hit a pinata, roll some dice, or otherwise use whatever means seems best to them when selecting artists for their projects.
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We are all VG lovers here. Let us remember that.
Congratulations, and Cheers.
Well, some of us just registered today, apparently for this specific issue, which always begs certain questions
Just kidding, and from past experience we sort of assumed this type of conversation would take place, in one form or another. I'm glad you raised the points you did and reminded us specifically of VV; I feel like perhaps we need some more official advice or statement clarifying this topic, but even stating ANYTHING at all can be dangerous. Either way, you're right, we're all gamers & VGM fans, and need to remember that. -
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Thank you for the Reply DJP. I was writing when you had responded.
Your answer is reasonable. I apologize for not having linked the forum in question.
You are correct that I felt unjustice with it, but the tone of most posters in that thread as you will note, was incredibly negative. It seemed as they were doing a similar, and by most merits, lesser extent of what is happening here. But the negativity was extremely high.
If you would mind answer this question: Why do you only offer the album at $50 donations? It seems higher than I had expected, even with seeing the 15k donation number.
I can't account for the negativity of others, only my own; there's a wide variety of sentiment on topics like these, sometimes cooler heads don't prevail, and people's definition of what's "fair" can be shockingly subjective.
We discussed rewards and logistics at length among staff. There was legitimate concern that the logistics of mailing physicals, compounded with international shipping costs that vary, compounded with the ultimate price of a four-disc album w/ as fancy a color insert we could muster, would be prohibitive at the $25 marker.
I feel like you're asking us to justify ourselves - which is absolutely fine, to a reasonable extent - but let's look at it from another perspective. We're saying to the world "Hey, $50 for an awesome 4-DISC FF6 ALBUM by OC ReMix! Help support the site!" And we're having a really successful first day where we're doing better than we thought we would, for which we are extremely grateful. To some degree, isn't that justification in and of itself? We're not deceiving people as to what they'll be getting, we've spelled out what we think it will cost us, and hell... if all you want is the music, that's going to be FREE, as always. In light of all this, your line of inquiry again seems antagonistic to me. Shouldn't you be happy for us? We're doing well. If you don't want the physical album, you certainly shouldn't contribute. I certainly hope you'll download the album, either way.
Does it need to be more complicated than that? Do you feel compelled to try and make it more complicated than that?
If so, perhaps the conversation should be private?
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Maybe it is because it fulfills a double purpose as acting as a donation driver, But that is a grey area since you would then actually be collecting "profit". Just using it to fund the website.
Sorry for the long response. I find this to be a confusing topic.
I feel like you're trying to be fair & measured but that in actuality you perceive some sort of injustice, and that it might have affected your decision to not link to, or quote from, the thread in question, instead substituting your own description of events for what actually happened:
http://ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=37313&page=3
That's definitely what I said, and it is indeed inconsistent with what we ourselves are now doing.Thanks, guys. We're just a lot more comfortable pimping stuff that's either free, or $$$ AND licensed through Harry Fox, etc.IMO, the only surefire way to handle covering costs of album printing is to sell at the ACTUAL cost per album, and not above, meaning prices more like $2-4, or to do a kickstarter, cut if off, and ONLY make that many copies, divided evenly among contributors.
Okay, but why? Are we just hypocritical assholes? (rhetorical) No, the difference is ownership & accountability - in this case I was specifically talking about what we were comfortable with OTHER people doing. I use the term "comfortable" because in this case, VV wasn't an official OC ReMix album, we weren't likely to be held accountable for it in any way, and so it simply becomes a matter of how cool we are pimping/promoting it. That's our prerogative, by the way - no one call tell us what we can or can't promote, just as we are similarly unable to dictate such terms to others. They were free to proceed against my advice, and the only negative repercussion I was articulating was a potential decrease in or lack of promotion, nothing else.
For an OFFICIAL OCR album, to be sure, the standard is different. Accountability becomes far more important, we are attaching our own name to it and promoting it heavily, and ANY sort of fundraiser for physicals would be operated with FULL disclosure to staff, and oversight by staff, because it's our name that's out there.
I hope this clarifies things for you; short version is that for non-official albums, we can only express what we are most comfortable with in terms of promoting something that has money attached to it in any way, shape, or form. For official albums, anything fiscally-related needs to be held to a higher standard, with staff involvement.
Here's an even shorter, one-word answer: accountability.
Good question; hopefully there's no subtext of inquisition or accusation behind it, but I can see how someone would be confused.
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Update (2012-09-25): We're BACK! (New Announcement!)
Update (2012-08-20): We worked extensively with Square Enix and were able to reach a fair & reasonable agreement, but after doing so we were informed by Kickstarter that they are technically unable to restore our project.
- The previous kickstarter is now effectively dead.
- Kickstarter staff have informed us that there is no need to cancel pledges, as credit cards will NEVER be charged, but feel free to do so anyways if you prefer! We did ask if they could just auto-cancel/delete all pledges, but apparently (as with restoring our project) they are technically unable to do that.
- Obviously, this is disappointing; we apologize for any inconvenience & frustration it may have caused you, and we are thankful for all the amazing support you've given us.
- Now that we’ve got everything sorted out, we're going to TRY AGAIN!! Stay tuned for info on a new announcement, and thanks (again) for your patience and support!
- The previous kickstarter is now effectively dead.
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yeah but you can and literally nothing happens
just being realistic
Nothing happens... until it does.
Everyone who takes advantage of a situation leading up until the critical point at which it actually achieves enough mass to be noticeable/objectionable can be thought of in different lights... opportunists, perhaps, entrepreneurs, perhaps, but *potentially* also sellouts AND/OR those who'd risk ruining things for others to profit themselves AND/OR those who might be better advised making money off their own name & their original work than profiting through name/brand association - however talented they may be.
Not saying any sort of "crackdown" or widespread adversity to fan creations is inevitable due to increased ignorance of licensing and selling for profit, but it's at least POSSIBLE.
Just something to consider.
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Was anyone else reminded of Hyadain - http://ocremix.org/artist/9076/hyadain - ?
This almost felt like an English version of an arrangement he might do... albeit slightly less on crack, and of course he'd do all of the voices himself
Still, to me it had some of the same crazy brilliance, vocal flexibility, & contextual humor. -
Happy Birfday to all, but a special BIRFDAY MIXPOST for zircon @ http://ocremix.org/remix/OCR02457/
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Kickstarter FAQ / issues / concerns
in Site Issues & Feedback
Posted
You seem to be confused about something.
The "Terms of Use" part of the policy that you are quoting - it doesn't apply to us, or artists, it specifically applies to other people who want to use OC ReMixes in some other context. It is basically a license extension.
The "Submission Agreement" is the part that applies to both artists & us, and is more contractual in nature, where artists agree to do (or not do) certain things, and we agree to do (or not do) certain things.
I think you haven't correctly recognized the purpose of each respective section. I'd appreciate it if you stopped saying we didn't think things through, and read more closely.