Rozovian Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 In Willrock's recent wip thread, the question came up as to whether or not it's a good idea to post multiple versions of the same wip. See this thread for that discussion. Any further thoughts about that? Also, I'm wondering, does anyone have any other suggestions for how to improve the wip board, the feedback or lack thereof, etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkeSword Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 In Willrock's recent wip thread, the question came up as to whether or not it's a good idea to post multiple versions of the same wip. See this thread for that discussion. Any further thoughts about that?Also, I'm wondering, does anyone have any other suggestions for how to improve the wip board, the feedback or lack thereof, etc? There's nothing wrong with posting multiple versions of a WIP. That's the prerogative of the artist. I don't even know why it's even an issue to be discussed. This also doesn't belong in WIP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 The reasons it might be a bad thing is because it might dissuade people from commenting more than "version A is better", if they'll comment at all. This is mentioned in the linked thread. People who comment on wips on the board, unlike yourself, might have their own preferences, thus the need for them for a thread to voice their views on it and other wip-related matters. Also, the reason I posted this on the wip board is because this is wip-related. The wip board frequencters don't always come here to check this thread. They do come to the wip board. They're not gonna dig up this thread when they have a question will likely go unasked, the idea unmentioned. Furthermore, the reason I didn't suggest moving this thread to the wip board is because if I have the first post, I can edit it to contain summaries and links to discussions that we've had in the thread. This way, no newbs are ever gonna find this thread, and nobody's gonna sum up discussions and post them where they're easily available. wtg overzealous mod. edit: link to the thread LT had to make to keep mods from abducting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkeSword Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 The reasons it might be a bad thing is because it might dissuade people from commenting more than "version A is better", if they'll comment at all. This is mentioned in the linked thread. People who comment on wips on the board, unlike yourself, might have their own preferences, thus the need for them for a thread to voice their views on it and other wip-related matters. Except that you don't need a thread to discuss that kind of issue. It's a non-issue. It's not going to dissuade anyone from anything. If a person posts "hey which one is better" then that's their prerogative. What are you going to do? Make a rule that says "NO YOU CAN'T POST MULTIPLE VERSIONS BECAUSE THEN PEOPLE WILL NOT GIVE YOU GOOD FEEDBACK." You can't stop people from posting mixes they want to post. People are going to comment on WIPs to whatever degree they're willing and able. Again, it's a non-issue, and you're overthinking it again, turning something that isn't even worth discussinginto a big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Why are you afraid of discussion, DS? For someone on the staff, you seem strangely hostile to any community initiative (even one greenlit by a member of the staff) to discuss and improve the wip boards. Or is it something personal? The purpose of discussion is to bring out all concievable pros and cons with the topic Discussing the pros and cons of posting multiple version for the remixer to read and consider before posting a wip (in one or several versions)... why do you think that's a bad thing? edit: also, perhaps this should be discussed in the wip board questions and discussion thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceansAndrew Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 I don't see any issue with multiple wips. More rules just makes things suck; it's fine as is. I also agree with DS that this is not a big deal at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkeSword Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Why are you afraid of discussion, DS? For someone on the staff, you seem strangely hostile to any community initiative (even one greenlit by a member of the staff) to discuss and improve the wip boards.Or is it something personal? The purpose of discussion is to bring out all concievable pros and cons with the topic Discussing the pros and cons of posting multiple version for the remixer to read and consider before posting a wip (in one or several versions)... why do you think that's a bad thing? It's a bad thing because discussing the pros and cons of posting multiple versions of a track won't amount to anything. It doesn't help artists in the slightest. It won't bring about rules or policies or even best-practices. What helps them is actually reviewing their WIPs. You have a tendency to over-analyze anything that goes on in the WIP forum. Take a step back for a second: is talking about this really going to help artists get more feedback? No, it's not. Are you going to prevent a person from posting multiple versions? Are you going to require them to post multiple versions? The WIP forum is actually very simple: an artist posts a link to their song. People listen to it. They write feedback. The artist takes the feedback and works more on their mix. They post again. Repeat. That's all there is to it. If I post two versions and say "which is better, a or b?" well then that's what I want to know. If nobody replies to that post because nobody wants to download two mixes and compare them, well that sucks, but that's the way it is and I have to deal with that. I can just keep posting updates and decide for myself, or I can go elsewhere to get opinions. The WIP boards can't improve the way they are now. They've been the same way for as long as they've been in existence. People will listen to stuff they want to listen to, and people will skip the stuff they don't. They'll comment if they have a comment, otherwise they'll just post "hay this is grate keep goin'." That's how it's been, and that's how it's going to be. We already tried providing guidelines for people to use when evaluating mixes on the WIP board in the form of a very useful checklist that points out exactly what we look for in an OC ReMix, but no, that wasn't good enough because it was too specific and pidgeon-holing, and people would be discouraged from providing any meaningful feedback and would just put little Xs in the boxes and blah-blah-blah-general-complaint. Hardly anyone uses the checklist, when it's exactly what they SHOULD BE using. But no, that's too rigid, people should post what they want and shouldn't be confined to the shitty judges' shitty standards, wah wah wah! Nothing short of reorganizing the WIP board at a software-implementation level will improve the situation, which we're already looking at in terms of forum enhancements. It's all very preliminary right now. And nothing more can possibly be done to increase visibility of WIPs. We already aggregate WIP topics on the FRONT PAGE of the site. They're RIGHT THERE under reviews. What more can you possibly do? Post them above Reviews? Post them above Community?! That's not going to happen. My problem with community initiative to improve the WIP boards is that it's all conceptual discussion focusing on problems that don't actually exist, like 'what if a person posts multiple versions of a song? ' The "community initiative" should be as follows: "Start posting in the WIP forum." That's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpretzel Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Nothing short of reorganizing the WIP board at a software-implementation level will improve the situation, which we're already looking at in terms of forum enhancements. It's all very preliminary right now. And nothing more can possibly be done to increase visibility of WIPs. We already aggregate WIP topics on the FRONT PAGE of the site. They're RIGHT THERE under reviews. What more can you possibly do? Post them above Reviews? Post them above Community?! That's not going to happen. Yeah, WIPs / non-OC ReMixes will always be beneath actual ReMixes in terms of placement, but they're already on the front page. With some trickery, we could potentially get them showing up on game detail pages and/or remixer pages, but Shariq's correct in that most good solutions require software development. At the moment I'm working on some other stuff in that arena - very, very hard - but I guess what's important is that I'm really open to this idea and hopefully this year or early next we can start implementing some of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Is this what you think I'm saying: "The problem: not enough feedback. The solution: let's list pros and cons of hardly relevant things that we'll discuss somewhere." It's not. I'm saying "how can I help?". I'm saying "let's talk about the wip forum _on_ the wip forum". Every time I've had a suggestion for improving it, I've been met with "you're overthinking it, take a step back". To me, that's starting to read as "we don't want your ideas, just your post count". Or maybe "we don't _your_ involvement in the wip boards". I doubt that's actually helping the wip board. Talking about wip-related stuff might not instantly turn the wip board buzzing of activity, but it could provide some resources for the wip posters and reviewers. In turn, that could get people more interested in commenting on wips. My problem with community initiative to improve the WIP boards is that it's all conceptual discussion focusing on problems that don't actually exist, like 'what if a person posts multiple versions of a song? ' The "community initiative" should be as follows: "Start posting in the WIP forum." That's it. I doubt people are gonna be interested in posting in a forum that they can't talk about, suggest improvements for, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liontamer Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 In Willrock's recent wip thread, the question came up as to whether or not it's a good idea to post multiple versions of the same wip. See this thread for that discussion. Any further thoughts about that? I already told you yesterday evening on IRC that there was nothing to discuss about that and that we don't need any rule against that, for the same reasons DarkeSword said now. You can't force someone not to do multiple WIPs, and if they want to do that, that's their choice. That's not something that needs a policy. And the likelihood that people would post enough divergent WIPs is so low, it's a waste of time to even bring it up. Not that I'm mad, but even though I told you it was not worth discussing, you brought it up anyway. Why bother? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted August 23, 2008 Share Posted August 23, 2008 Gave the upper paragraph too much emphasis. Was gonna emphasize the latter one, suggestions, discussion, improvements etc. tho, you never know if someone gets an epiphany about something (which is why I bothered to). Nor did I ever suggest a rule about it. DS was the one to say the word "rule", and it was in jest. I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoCross Posted August 24, 2008 Share Posted August 24, 2008 Well the idea wasn't to get more reviews, but to give the WIP posters a way to differentiate between good and bad advice. Fishy makes a good point though. Non-Pro reviewers might get discouraged when some people ignore their advice, even if it's valid. Hmmm, is there any way to implement a system to those similar of product reviews. You know, where anyone can agree/disagree on a review and then it spits out a total percentage. It gives the question: "Do you find this review helpful?" Then there is a "yes" and "no" button that you can click on. 100% = everyone agrees and 0% = no one agrees. Then it's up to the remixer if they want to take any advice on any given review. I like to read reviews before buying a product online btw. =D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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