Copyright question

[metaPlexico]

Hey there, new user here. I searched the forums for a while but couldn't find an answer to this question.

I'm in a video game music band and we want to sell a CD we've recorded. Any idea if this would be considered a "cover"? If that's the case we'd owe royalties to the original composers. Or would it be considered an arrangement? If that's the case, a licensing fee still applies though it's substantially less than if it were a cover.

At the same time, though, I wonder if there's any reason why the original composers would care about this sort of thing. A video game music band isn't competing with their product. Nobody buying our CD would then decide not to buy Gradius III or whatever because they have the whole experience right there in their hands (to be fair, though, we are quite an experience ).

Has anyone remixing this stuff encountered this domain by selling a CD of their remixes? Or can anyone point me in the right direction here?

I see the Minibosses, probably the foremost VG rock band, have CDs for sale. Based on what the licensing cost would be (roughly $85 per song on a 1000-unit run) I find it extremely unlikely they went through that process.

In any case, I (we) would greatly appreciate any tips in this regard.

Peace!

[Bahamut]

Are you sure it's $85 per song? That sounds quite high to me, although some others probably can tell you the rates they licensed for.

But many of those in the community who do sell these CDs do get the necessary licenses (some don't). This would go for covers, remixes, or rearrangements.

As for whether your CD would be considered a cover CD, are the songs that you guys do covers of video game music? If so, then yes. This point is moot though, as you would need a license to the requisite tracks to legally sell the CDs anyway.

Oftentimes, the original composers don't even own the rights to their works. They just work under contract, and the development company that hired them owns the rights to their music. They have a vested interest to profit off of their music, so it's not surprising that they do charge for it. Also, for some companies' music, it is possible to license it through a middleman, although I don't know too much about this...others here probably can tell you.

[metaPlexico]

Are you sure it's $85 per song? That sounds quite high to me, although some others probably can tell you the rates they licensed for.

But many of those in the community who do sell these CDs do get the necessary licenses (some don't). This would go for covers, remixes, or rearrangements.

As for whether your CD would be considered a cover CD, are the songs that you guys do covers of video game music? If so, then yes. This point is moot though, as you would need a license to the requisite tracks to legally sell the CDs anyway.

The way I understand it is that for "small runs" (less than 2500 copies), the cost is $.85 per unit per song (under 5 minutes, there's a slight increase per minute after 5). So, assuming a 1000-copy CD run, that's $85 dollars a song or about $1200 for a 12-song CD. Which is steep. Too high, for us, in fact, to add to the already high costs of printing, artwork, etc.

However, that's for a "cover song". Like, if I were to play "Let It Be" on the acoustic guitar and felt like recording it and selling it.

[zircon]

Hey there, new user here. I searched the forums for a while but couldn't find an answer to this question.

I'm in a video game music band and we want to sell a CD we've recorded. Any idea if this would be considered a "cover"? If that's the case we'd owe royalties to the original composers. Or would it be considered an arrangement? If that's the case, a licensing fee still applies though it's substantially less than if it were a cover.

You have things confused here. A cover and an arrangement are the same thing, generally speaking, if by "arrangement" you mean it in the sense of "arrangement for piano" or "arrangement for ten-piece band". The key is that you're not changing the fundamental characteristics of the song, like melody, harmonies, rhythms, and lyrics.

IF you are doing a cover, you can get a compulsory mechanical license through the Harry Fox Agency. The current rate for CMLs is 9.1 cents per song per album PRINTED. So, that would be $91 per song if you're printing 1,000 CDs.

If you're really changing the songs, adding lots of new material, and otherwise changing the fundamental characteristics, you are creating a derivative work. You CANNOT get a compulsory license of any kind for this. You must actually negotiate directly with the copyright holder.

At the same time, though, I wonder if there's any reason why the original composers would care about this sort of thing. A video game music band isn't competing with their product. Nobody buying our CD would then decide not to buy Gradius III or whatever because they have the whole experience right there in their hands (to be fair, though, we are quite an experience ).

They care because they wrote the music, and they deserve money.

Has anyone remixing this stuff encountered this domain by selling a CD of their remixes? Or can anyone point me in the right direction here?

Jill Goldin (pixietricks) put out a CD, Origins early this year with a licensed FF7 song on it (Deliverance of the Heart). We went through Harry Fox to get the CML.

I see the Minibosses, probably the foremost VG rock band, have CDs for sale. Based on what the licensing cost would be (roughly $85 per song on a 1000-unit run) I find it extremely unlikely they went through that process.

$91 per song. It is, in fact, unlikely that they paid licensing fees which is a shame because that's copyright infringement. How would you like it if I took songs YOU wrote and sold them without giving you any money?

[big giant circles]

At the same time, though, I wonder if there's any reason why the original composers would care about this sort of thing.

Zircon's right, but at the same time I'm sure there probably are a few composers out there who wouldn't care. HOWEVER, in most cases, it's no longer up to the composer. If a composer writes music for, say, a game for EA, then chances are likely that EA are the ones who are going to "care", seeing as they own the music.

[Jedi QuestMaster]

At the same time, though, I wonder if there's any reason why the original composers would care about this sort of thing. A video game music band isn't competing with their product. Nobody buying our CD would then decide not to buy Gradius III or whatever because they have the whole experience right there in their

If there's an OST CD of Gradius III, which there is, there would be good reason to care - it's competing against their CD.

[Gollgagh]

it's competing against their CD.

well that's arguable

[Meteo Xavier]

The way I understand it is that for "small runs" (less than 2500 copies), the cost is $.85 per unit per song (under 5 minutes, there's a slight increase per minute after 5). So, assuming a 1000-copy CD run, that's $85 dollars a song or about $1200 for a 12-song CD. Which is steep. Too high, for us, in fact, to add to the already high costs of printing, artwork, etc.

Thats why you don't see a lot of band recording video game cover material.

Zircon's post presented an interesting idea that you may not like, but might work out for you. Perhaps you guys can take this album, break into 3 parts, like 4 songs each, and do original material around it? It might not sell as well with only a 1/3 material people actually want, but in the realm of artistic marketing, its all FUBAR anyway and you might get lucky.

[Liontamer]

If there's an OST CD of Gradius III, which there is, there would good reason to care - it's competing against their CD.

It's not competing against their CD. That CD went out of print in 1992 (print runs customarily last 2 years). I'm not saying that makes it OK, but there's no direct competition in the first-hand market.

[Nutritious]

Jill Goldin (pixietricks) put out a CD, Origins early this year with a licensed FF7 song on it (Deliverance of the Heart). We went through Harry Fox to get the CML.

So, Deliverance isn't considered a derivative work from the original? Added vocals and all? This specific song came to mind when reading the Square Enix Fundraiser album discussion.

[zircon]

Well, technically speaking, possibly. But we made the choice to call it more of a cover/arrangement; I mean, hey, we're paying money for it, it's a small project, one song...

[metaPlexico]

Thanks for the responses.

We can't afford licensing fees. It makes it not worth it. What we're gonna do, I think, is hand out free copies of EPs when you buy other merch (t-shirts, etc.)

[Jedi QuestMaster]

It's not competing against their CD. That CD went out of print in 1992 (print runs customarily last 2 years). I'm not saying that makes it OK, but there's no direct competition in the first-hand market.

Okay, maybe not that one... but who's to say Konami won't release another album like this one:

http://vgmdb.net/album/276

I'm just saying that releasing an arrangement/cover of a video game album may not necessarily conflict with a game's sales, but it could be viewed as a deterrence on the sales of a game's OST (I know it's not a very strong argument unless the game's OST really sucks). :/

[Meteo Xavier]

Thanks for the responses.

We can't afford licensing fees. It makes it not worth it. What we're gonna do, I think, is hand out free copies of EPs when you buy other merch (t-shirts, etc.)

.... Not a bad idea.... but for some reason the idea of giving away music with the purchase of merchandise that was created based on your music in the first place puts a strange image in my head.

An Ouroburous circle jerking.

Still, its creative. Try it and see if it works.