So Star Wars pops into my head...

[Wacky]

Imperial Repeaters for the win.

[Ferret]

The problem with "Han shot first" is that it implies that Han shot Greedo before Greedo shot Han. That never happened. Greedo never got a shot off.

Of course not! Han turned him into Kamino Fried Rodian!

I know some of you are going to rail on me for invoking the Prequels, but honestly, is it any better than the original idea for the Clone Wars?

At least this way we get a sort-of basis for the Stormtroopers.

[Sinewav]

Well, the whole point kinda was that you were a Jedi... so using the lightsaber the whole time was probably intentional. The guns were still really useful in multiplayer though.

I can't remember the name of the mod, but it was a lot of fun... basically, it was a team deathmatch where one side was all Jedi with all of the force powers, and the other side was "bounty hunters" with all of the guns and some new gadgets like jetpacks and grappling hooks. I found it to be surprisingly well balanced, and it added an interesting tactical aspect to the game, where you had to know what your opponents were capable of, and learn how to attack/defend against them with your own abilities.

[yangfeili]

Imperial Repeaters for the win.

My friends and I always used a weapon mod I made for the original Jedi Knight, where the Repeater fired Concussion Rifle shots. Needless to say, those were some very high frag-count matches. Storm Trooper Rifle + Sticky Rockets was also quite amusing.

[Sinewav]

My friends and I always used a weapon mod I made for the original Jedi Knight, where the Repeater fired Concussion Rifle shots. Needless to say, those were some very high frag-count matches. Storm Trooper Rifle + Sticky Rockets was also quite amusing.

Original JK was also an awesome game, especially with mods. One of my favorite gaming memories that I like to brag about was when I got accused of cheating and was kicked from a game because a guy unloaded all the ammo from his Rail Detonator at me, and I just stood there and shot them all out of the air with the Bryar Pistol.

[DarkeSword]

Well, the whole point kinda was that you were a Jedi... so using the lightsaber the whole time was probably intentional. The guns were still really useful in multiplayer though.

I can't remember the name of the mod, but it was a lot of fun... basically, it was a team deathmatch where one side was all Jedi with all of the force powers, and the other side was "bounty hunters" with all of the guns and some new gadgets like jetpacks and grappling hooks. I found it to be surprisingly well balanced, and it added an interesting tactical aspect to the game, where you had to know what your opponents were capable of, and learn how to attack/defend against them with your own abilities.

I remember that. That was a cool gametype.

[Zyborggian]

I would like to bring the discussion back to the original topic for a while, if that’s OK.

This completely blew my mind.

After having the Star Wars "Rule of Two" for the Sith explained to me (As I was never a fan and know the series only in passing- but strangely enough because they are awesome games I know the KotOR universe far better than I do the movies) The thought that Anakin Skywalker, that is, Darth Vader, would bring "Balance" to the force strikes me thus:

1. Assume there are 2 Sith at any one time.

2. Assume there are >2 Jedi at any one time.

Through episode 3, Anakin Skywalker goes nuts and kills every other Jedi except for Obi Wan and Yoda and turns to the Dark side, that is, turns Sith, so:

2 Sith = 2 Jedi by the end of the 3rd movie.

Where the next 3 go,

2 Jedi vs. 2 Sith

1 Jedi vs. 2 Sith after Obi Wan Dies, but because of Vader's actions, Luke becomes a Jedi, so

2 Jedi vs. 2 Sith

And then in Return of the Jedi Yoda dies, so

1 Jedi vs. 2 Sith

Vader kills Palpatine, so

1 Jedi vs. 1 Sith

And then Vader dies, and can't affect the number of Jedi vs. Sith any more.

Anakin Skywalker has, indeed, brought Balance to the Force! Every time he's acted, he has balanced the equation!

You would think when the Jedi outnumbered the Sith by several thousand they'd not want Anakin around, but clearly they don't teach enough Jedi discrete Mathematics or Logic systems and instead teach them kumbaya and that "balance" is always good.

When I read this thread’s first post I thought to myself WOW… I wonder if the movie makers had that connection in mind when they made the films.

ANYWAY.

I should start by saying that as far as I’m concerned, the entire family of Skywalkers brought balance to the force. Both Luke and Anakin/Vader took courses of action which determined the final bringing of balance to The Force.

For those of you who say bringing balance to the force has nothing to do with mathematics, I must say I disagree with you.

We all should know that The Force has two sides light and dark. It seems to be a system where one side complements the other. By killing all the sith a whole chunk of the force would be annihilated.

The choice of the word balance in the phrase is important here.

The line is not presented as “Bring peace to The Force” or “Bring order to The Force.”

It is stated “Bring balance to The Force.” A word like balance can only be used to describe stability between two sides of something.

Think about A balance for a moment. Visualize The Dark Side of The Force on one end of the balance and The Light Side of The Force on the other. If all the sith are eliminated The Light Side would have a larger quantity than the other side, unbalancing The Force and possibly resulting disastrous consequences.

I basically

agree with the main content of the first post.

[Red9]

I would like to bring the discussion back to the original topic for a while, if that’s OK.

When I read this thread’s first post I thought to myself WOW… I wonder if the movie makers had that connection in mind when they made the films.

ANYWAY.

I should start by saying that as far as I’m concerned, the entire family of Skywalkers brought balance to the force. Both Luke and Anakin/Vader took courses of action which determined the final bringing of balance to The Force.

For those of you who say bringing balance to the force has nothing to do with mathematics, I must say I disagree with you.

We all should know that The Force has two sides light and dark. It seems to be a system where one side complements the other. By killing all the sith a whole chunk of the force would be annihilated.

The choice of the word balance in the phrase is important here.

The line is not presented as “Bring peace to The Force” or “Bring order to The Force.”

It is stated “Bring balance to The Force.” A word like balance can only be used to describe stability between two sides of something.

Think about A balance for a moment. Visualize The Dark Side of The Force on one end of the balance and The Light Side of The Force on the other. If all the sith are eliminated The Light Side would have a larger quantity than the other side, unbalancing The Force and possibly resulting disastrous consequences.

I basically

agree with the main content of the first post.

More political if you ask me...you can't have a pure conservative or pure liberal government as one becomes too restrictive and the other leads to general anarchy.

Sorry bout the potenially offtopic of this post:tomatoface:

[Zyborggian]

More political if you ask me...you can't have a pure conservative or pure liberal government as one becomes too restrictive and the other leads to general anarchy.

Sorry bout the potenially offtopic of this post:tomatoface:

Please dont bring politics into this discussion.

We dont want people to start Yelling all over this thread about their political opinions.

[Sinewav]

More political if you ask me...you can't have a pure conservative or pure liberal government as one becomes too restrictive and the other leads to general anarchy.

Sorry bout the potenially offtopic of this post:tomatoface:

You say anarchy like it's a bad thing.

We all should know that The Force has two sides light and dark. It seems to be a system where one side complements the other. By killing all the sith a whole chunk of the force would be annihilated.

The choice of the word balance in the phrase is important here.

The line is not presented as “Bring peace to The Force” or “Bring order to The Force.”

It is stated “Bring balance to The Force.” A word like balance can only be used to describe stability between two sides of something.

Think about A balance for a moment. Visualize The Dark Side of The Force on one end of the balance and The Light Side of The Force on the other. If all the sith are eliminated The Light Side would have a larger quantity than the other side, unbalancing The Force and possibly resulting disastrous consequences.

This sounds very reminiscent of the ideas of Yin and Yang. Interesting.

[DarkeSword]

We all should know that The Force has two sides light and dark. It seems to be a system where one side complements the other. By killing all the sith a whole chunk of the force would be annihilated.

Uh, no. Just because you kill all the Sith, that doesn't mean you've destroyed the Dark Side of the Force. The Dark Side of the Force is still there, and any Jedi can still fall.

And besides, all Sith are Dark Jedis, but not all Dark Jedis are Sith. Sith is a special classification of Dark Jedi.

[Sinewav]

Uh, no. Just because you kill all the Sith, that doesn't mean you've destroyed the Dark Side of the Force. The Dark Side of the Force is still there, and any Jedi can still fall.

And besides, all Sith are Dark Jedis, but not all Dark Jedis are Sith. Sith is a special classification of Dark Jedi.

That makes sense... if Dooku fell to the dark side as long ago as they make it sound in Ep2, then he was probably a dark jedi around the time of Ep1, even though there were already 2 sith: Palpatine and Darth Maul. It does make me wonder why we never saw any dark jedi besides the sith though. Also, how does one go about class-changing from dark jedi to sith? What's the actual difference between the two?

[Secret Agent Man]

Luke brought balance to the force by allowing himself to use the dark side during his battle with Darth Vader in Return of the Jedi, but not allowing himself to turn completely to the dark side. He's a Jedi that was able to harness the power of the dark side without becoming a sith.

Mace Windu fought using both sides of the Force.

[DarkeSword]

Mace Windu fought using both sides of the Force.

Er...yes and no. He used a fighting style called Vaapad, the 7th form of lightsaber combat. It's not really "using" both sides of the Force, but it's a style that requires extreme amounts of focus and self-control, because it's very easy to succumb to the Dark Side due to the inherent viciousness of the style.

As for a Dark Jedi vs. a Sith, the difference is usually in how they use the Force and what they know about it. The Sith have a very specific philosophy about power; a Dark Jedi is just a Jedi that's off the rails.

[Sinewav]

Um... where exactly are you getting all this info? It's interesting, but is it cannon?

[Native Jovian]

No, because cannons are the things that shoot things at other things. It might be canon, though.

[DarkeSword]

Um... where exactly are you getting all this info? It's interesting, but is it cannon?

Canon. Specifically C-Canon. And maybe T-Canon.

I've read the Darth Bane novels (Path of Destruction and Rule of Two) which heavily feature the philosophies of the Sith and their beliefs about power and controlling the Force, both during and after the New Sith Wars. Incidentally, those books are written by Drew Karpyshyn, the lead writer for the first KotOR video game, as well as Mass Effect. If you like KotOR, give those books a shot. They're quite accessible in that the time period they take place in is only covered in one other story, the Jedi vs. Sith comic miniseries (also worth reading). It's a very "fresh" era, and you don't really have to have followed any other Expanded Universe stuff to get into them.

Vaapad, Mace Windu's fighting style, is discussed at length in Shatterpoint, a Clone Wars novel that focuses on Mace (and is actually a Star Wars version of Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness), and a Star Wars one-shot comic that takes place during the Clone Wars about Mace Windu challenging Sora Bulq, one of his former masters and lightsaber instructor who'd fallen to the Dark Side.

T-Canon example of a non-Sith Dark Jedi: Asajj Ventress, the dual-lightsaber wielding apprentice of Count Dooku (Darth Tyranus). In the original Clone Wars animated series, Dooku specificially tells Asajj that she is not a Sith, despite being apprenticed to a Sith Lord, and he refuses to train her as a Sith.

[Sinewav]

Gotcha. I generally ignore the expanded universe stuff, unless it's something specifically Lucas-supervised like the Clone Wars show or The Force Unleashed. I'll accept the games depending on whether I like them or not .

Back when I was a kid, I'd read the EU novels religiously, but after a while I realized that most of them sucked, which kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. That's just me though. Sometimes I don't even want to consider the prequel movies canon.

[BlueMage]

This completely blew my mind.

After having the Star Wars "Rule of Two" for the Sith explained to me (As I was never a fan and know the series only in passing- but strangely enough because they are awesome games I know the KotOR universe far better than I do the movies) The thought that Anakin Skywalker, that is, Darth Vader, would bring "Balance" to the force strikes me thus:

1. Assume there are 2 Sith at any one time.

2. Assume there are >2 Jedi at any one time.

Through episode 3, Anakin Skywalker goes nuts and kills every other Jedi except for Obi Wan and Yoda and turns to the Dark side, that is, turns Sith, so:

2 Sith = 2 Jedi by the end of the 3rd movie.

Where the next 3 go,

2 Jedi vs. 2 Sith

1 Jedi vs. 2 Sith after Obi Wan Dies, but because of Vader's actions, Luke becomes a Jedi, so

2 Jedi vs. 2 Sith

And then in Return of the Jedi Yoda dies, so

1 Jedi vs. 2 Sith

Vader kills Palpatine, so

1 Jedi vs. 1 Sith

And then Vader dies, and can't affect the number of Jedi vs. Sith any more.

Anakin Skywalker has, indeed, brought Balance to the Force! Every time he's acted, he has balanced the equation!

You would think when the Jedi outnumbered the Sith by several thousand they'd not want Anakin around, but clearly they don't teach enough Jedi discrete Mathematics or Logic systems and instead teach them kumbaya and that "balance" is always good.

I forgive you for not realising this all sooner solely because you admit to not being a fan.

[DarkeSword]

I forgive you for not realising this all sooner solely because you admit to not being a fan.

What's to realize? The numbers game isn't what the prophecy is about.

[Native Jovian]

What's to realize? The numbers game isn't what the prophecy is about.

From MY point of view, the numbers game IS what the prophecy is about!

[DarkeSword]

From MY point of view, the numbers game IS what the prophecy is about!

Don't give me that 'certain point of view' crap. Obi-Wan Kenobi is a son of a bitch.

[Native Jovian]

But he's my kind of son of a bitch.

Seriously, the whole series becomes much more enjoyable if you start to consider Obi Wan the main character. I mean, he accomplished more shit after he DIED than half the main characters did while they were ALIVE. (I'm looking at you, Amidala.)

[Sinewav]

Obi-Wan was one of the only consistently good things about the prequels.