Silent Hill Discussion

[RazorOutlaw]

SPOILERS, BE ADVISED

Also, they're marked!

I still don't think the Red Pyramid Thing should be represented in this film, but it's presentation justifies it somewhat to myself. Also, because I don't think it will make another big-screen appearance. (Is it slinging a body around?)

That appears to be a rather big point of contention for many Silent Hill fans. Should PH be in the movie? Isn't PH a figment of James imagination, a manifestation of his wnat for guilt? Is PH merely limited to James? If so, how can PH be a figment of James imagination if the creature is part of the town's history?

I've been reading a lot of back and forth between fans on a MySpace Group Forum dedicated to Silent Hill. Being a part of that group myself, I got to weigh in on a few discussions. A few posters point out that Avery/Gans replied once to an irate SH fan. They said that "PH is from the town's history, therefore he can be in the movie."

The fan in question was saying that PH was tied directly to James, and therefore couldn't be in the movie. Some posters felt that Avery/Gans had the final say, and that they were right. Maybe they are. But that's a big maybe.

A few posters are saying that PH is an intrinsic part of the own, ala Samael. They're basing this on the fact that Pyramid Head looks like the executioners from the town's past. But that's kind of wrong, don't you think? If I dressed up as the Easter Bunny, does that make me a part of the Holiday's Origins or am I just some off-shoot and a product of events before my time?

I guess that's what bothers me the most. It's not so much that Avery/Gans can't use PH in another context in the movie, becaus they can if the movie has nothing to do with the games. Rather, what bothers me is that fans have so many misconceptions about the creature.

Pyramid Head is merely a manifestion of James subconcious, his memory of the town's past and his want for guilt combined to create that creature. So while yes you could see pictures of executioners running around and looking like PH, that does not mean another guilty/lost soul that shows up Silent Hill will see them too.

Now to go completely in another direction...Ifrit have you ever read any of the criticisms leveled at Silent Hill: No Escape? I engaged in a few discussions, but it quickly became an all against one situation. Most of the SH fans I "conversed" with didn't like the movie, regardless of all of the work put into it. They were bothered more by the technical aspects, including the way Peacer gave several homages to the Silent Hill games. They called them rip-offs, saying things like "Oh he took that straight out of the first game" or "The Spawn character is a rip off of PH" or, my favorite, "WTF IS SPAWN DOING IN THE MOVIE!?!!?!?!?!?"

Suffice to say, I was already too tired to argue those points with them. I have no confidence in myself anyway...

EDIT:

Also, ifrit, did you ever take a creative writing course? Your advice to Eccles is very sound. Characters should be revealed via dialogue and actions, i.e. showing not telling. I'd love to take the creative writing course I'm in again (or even take Creative Writing 2), but it's not being offered next semester.

Sad.

[UnforgivingEdges]

^

I think the SH movie is supposed to be more along the lines of an interpretation of the games, rather than actual canon to the series.

[I-n-j-i-n]

I hear that the Pyramid Head in the SH movie will be 9 feet tall. Sounds good to me.

[ifirit]

Warning: Possible Film Spoilers & Silent Hill 1, 2, 3 Spoilers

That appears to be a rather big point of contention for many Silent Hill fans. Should PH be in the movie? Isn't PH a figment of James imagination, a manifestation of his wnat for guilt? Is PH merely limited to James? If so, how can PH be a figment of James imagination if the creature is part of the town's history?

The biggest misconceptions about the Red Pyramid Thing are that it is 1) a solitary being, 2) unique in its appearance and 3) that it is simply manifeasted through the imagination of whoever perceives it. So, to help clear these misconceptions, let's take a look at each one.

First, let's look at the misconception that the Red Pyramid Thing is a solitary being. First off, there are two of them in the latter portion of the Lakeview Hotel. Second, the Red Pyramid Thing is a manifeasted being, such that it depends partly upon who calls the creature forth. Therefore, it, like all the other monsters, can appear multiple times or in groups. The thing you have to understand is that the creature is not a character or a person with a sense of individuality, so each time the monster appears (focusing right now solely within the context of the second game), it may actually be a different monster, but have the same form. However, that is simply through the perception of the individual that helps manifeast the creature. But, then it raises a few other questions, such as the question of how then does Maria see the Red Pyramid Thing, whose perspective is unique and is it possible to transpose a perspective, thus transposing the perception?

Truthfully, those questions are the ones you have to ask yourself, becasuse depending on what you believe, you would be inclined to suggest that what one sees it the way that it appears to all others. So, if you believed that since Maria could see the monster (operating under the one theory that Maria is a real person), you'd likely to believe that the form of the Red Pyramid Thing would appear as so to others, even those without the same perspective as James. However, if you were to say that what Maria saw was simply a monster and that it's form appeared differently than the form James saw, you'd probably say that the form of the Red Pyramid Thing was unique to the perspective of the viewer. But then, what would be the true form of the creature, if the monster could be perceived by others, but without consistent appearance? The answer seems to lie in your philosophy of perception.

A few posters point out that Avery/Gans replied once to an irate SH fan. They said that "PH is from the town's history, therefore he can be in the movie."

Second, we'll consider the misconception that the creature's appearance is unique. As is stated both by the second game, the Ushinawareta Kioku (Book of Lost Memories) and the creators, the appearance of the Red Pyramid Thing is derivative of the clothing worn by the executioners of the old Toluca Prison. And, since the form is derivative of a common subject of the town's history, it is not only possible, but likely that the form will manifeast itself into other people's subconcious. However, in order for the person to create the exact mental image of the Red Pyramid Thing, they would need to be in the exact same mind set as James. Thus, it becomes a question of whether or not it is possible to form the same mind set as another. Most philosophies suggest that this is not possible, but considering that the power of the town not only has the power to manifeast one's mind's inner workings, but that occassionally it can also allow people to experience the same type of situations as another, clearly shown in the scene with Angela and James in the stairwell of the Lakeview Hotel (i.e. "You see it too?"). James experiences the heat and visual torture of having the surroundings engulfed in flames. Granted this just goes back to the previous question of is the way one person sees something they way all people see it, since the way the room looks to him may not be exactly what Angela sees, though possibly similar. Thus, perceptions and experiences can be shared by other people in Silent Hill. It's simply a matter of putting together the right circumstances for such to occur. In otherwords, a person in almost exactly the same situation as James could most likely see a Red Pyramid Thing.

Simply put, when one's mental images are placed in world before you, the nature of the world around you changes.

The fan in question was saying that PH was tied directly to James, and therefore couldn't be in the movie. Some posters felt that Avery/Gans had the final say, and that they were right. Maybe they are. But that's a big maybe.

The third and last misconception is that the manifeastations that appear in the town of Silent Hill are simply influenced by a person's mental state and images. This is a huge misconception, because it would suggest that the power of calling forth manifeastations lies within the person solely, which it is not. The power to call forth the manifeastations, whether it be a monster, environment, or even other people, belongs principly to the power of the town. However, in a few rare cases, there are people who can bring forth manifeastations without the power of the town, but that's another discussion entirely. As is somewhat implied by the Ushinawareta Kioku, the power of the town draws people with guilt and pain in their hearts to Silent Hill in order to sustain its power, in return, it uses its power to bring the manifeastations to life in order to expose the person further to their guilt.

In the case of Silent Hill 2, Vatiel is called upon to act as the channel in which the manifeastations for James appear. Vatiel responds to James' wish to be punished for his crime and assumes the role of the punisher, which is combined with James' perception and the town's power to create the form of the Red Pyramid Thing. But, it's really not that simple, since there are multiple factors involved in why the Red Pyramid Thing appears the way it does, each depending on the philosphy of whoever is considering the subject. Though, there is one thing that is certain, Vatiel is connected to the appearance of the Red Pyramid Thing. His level of contribution to the form and its actions is yours to decide.

A few posters are saying that PH is an intrinsic part of the town, ala Samael. They're basing this on the fact that Pyramid Head looks like the executioners from the town's past. But that's kind of wrong, don't you think? If I dressed up as the Easter Bunny, does that make me a part of the Holiday's Origins or am I just some off-shoot and a product of events before my time?

The truth is that they were both right and both wrong. The Red Pyramid Thing is not intrinsic to the town, but that the image of the executioners is deeply engrained in the town's history and the presense of Vatiel is a part to the power of the town. So, the appearance of the Red Pyramid Thing could be manifeasted by others, fit the conditions are meet for its appearance. If Avary & Gans had considered the elements that make up the Red Pyramid Thing's appearance and adhered to those elements, I can't really object to the presense of it in the film, but if it's simply being used as an iconic figure in the series, then I highly question their understanding of the series.

I guess that's what bothers me the most. It's not so much that Avery/Gans can't use PH in another context in the movie, becaus they can if the movie has nothing to do with the games. Rather, what bothers me is that fans have so many misconceptions about the creature.

In any case, I try not to argue about it too much, because I know that a large portion of Silent Hill's fanbase is centered around the Red Pyramid Thing's presence in the second game and that they would all burst into tears or flames if poor ol' PH didn't make it into the movie.

Pyramid Head is merely a manifestion of James subconcious, his memory of the town's past and his want for guilt combined to create that creature. So while yes you could see pictures of executioners running around and looking like PH, that does not mean another guilty/lost soul that shows up Silent Hill will see them too.

You were fairly close in your thinking, you just need to include the power of the town and Vatiel into your idea. But, most importantly, you need to remember the question of perception, since the games leave so much ambiguity around when concerning the subject.

Now to go completely in another direction...Ifrit have you ever read any of the criticisms leveled at Silent Hill: No Escape? I engaged in a few discussions, but it quickly became an all against one situation. Most of the SH fans I "conversed" with didn't like the movie, regardless of all of the work put into it. They were bothered more by the technical aspects, including the way Peacer gave several homages to the Silent Hill games. They called them rip-offs, saying things like "Oh he took that straight out of the first game" or "The Spawn character is a rip off of PH" or, my favorite, "WTF IS SPAWN DOING IN THE MOVIE!?!!?!?!?!?"

Suffice to say, I was already too tired to argue those points with them. I have no confidence in myself anyway...

Your community seems to be fairly set in their thinking and unwilling to think for themselves. Besides, if they can't realize that art is not what one creates with one's tools, but that it's how one creates with one's tools, and that looking into how much work it is for a single person to churn out such well-thought-out pieces of art, you'd be a fool to disregard it simply on aesthetic qualities. (Although, I did have a couple of "Peacer, you copycat" moments in the series since they seemed more than just obvious homages. Putting my reactions aside, I can understand his justification for including them the way he did, since they also apply to Michael's story.)

Anyways, if you want to read a little of my thoughts on the subject, go to the No Escape forums and read what I've posted, though it's not as much as I would like. Furthermore, make sure to check out the boards after Part 6 (Side is released because I'll be posting more theories and opinions there when I have the whole picture.

EDIT: Also, ifrit, did you ever take a creative writing course? Your advice to Eccles is very sound. Characters should be revealed via dialogue and actions, i.e. showing not telling. I'd love to take the creative writing course I'm in again (or even take Creative Writing 2), but it's not being offered next semester.

Sad.

I have only taken one English class in my four years of college and am actually better oriented towards math and science than I am writing. I consider writing (or creative writing) as just a hobby of mine.

^

I think the SH movie is supposed to be more along the lines of an interpretation of the games, rather than actual canon to the series.

Yes, it's true that the film will act as a form of interpretation of the game (I am really pleasantly surprised at Gans' insites on the Rose/Harry character relationship and in a small way feel that that is the right direction to go), but there is a difference between using poetic license and just providing fan-service. Avary's responses seem to be oriented towards "because it operates under a certain logic, it can apply to my logic." Being that just because it could appear in another situation, it is completely up to poetic license to use it for one's own purposes. But, I can't speculate entirely on the reason's for Avary's defence since I don't know the context in which the Red Pyramid Thing appears, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

EDIT: By the way, I found the old Silent Hill 3 website (www.sh2003.com) still online. It seems that despite abandoning the old url, Konami did not put the entire site to waste. Check it out again, or if not, for the first time. You'll notice that the outside links in the Flash are outdated and that some new content has been added since it's launch. (Now if only if could find the old Flash version of Silent Hill 4's website [www.sh2004.com].)

Silent Hill 3 - The Official Website [New Location]

[the_nihilist]

I'm surprised no one has commented on this:

Also, hi Lisa!

[Eccles]

I have only taken one English class in my four years of college and am actually better oriented towards math and science than I am writing. I consider writing (or creative writing) as just a hobby of mine.

Though I get the feeling he'll chuck it in given the pile of story notes I sent him yesterday

[Z-Saber]

The trailer looked good and all, but I was more excited that they used music from the games.

If you haven't been paying attention, please read very carefully: Akira Yamaoka is confirmed as the musical director for the film and is going to compose all new music to fit this media. Yes, that means you won't have to wait until Silent Hill 5 to hear more of Akira Yamaoka's work. The music you heard in the introduction was simply a montage of Yamaoka's works that were simply substitutes until the first real trailer, which will more likely contain the new, original music.

I actually was aware of that, but it was still exciting to hear Yamaoka work in the trailer, even if it isn't original.

[BocoDragon]

By the way, just in case no one has done it yet, I declare this thread the official Silent Hill disccussion of the entire internet.

Just watched the trailer. I think it's already official: this is the first genuine film "adaptation" of a videogame. Unless there is something horribly off in the movie itself, it looks incredibly faithful to the concept of SH (and lets face it, that "concept" is more to the core of what SH is about than any plotline or character in particular)

Because it is so faithful to the games, It also may not be for everyone. I have a feeling the SH fans, such as those who lurk n this thread, will find much to enjoy. Depending on its quality, it could either be something that will draw new fans in..... or be for fans of this style of story only. We will see.

Now, will it end with a Melissa Williason tune?

[ifirit]

I'm surprised no one has commented on this:

Please use smaller pictures next time and don't direct link them from the website; it wastes bandwidth and slows down people with 56k connections.

Anyways, if looked through all the photos, you'll see that is not the only time those suits appear. It appears that they have significance to the story, but it is not revealed what. Besides, they're just protective rubber suits, though rather anique'd, used to protect the wearers from chemicals or other biohazardous materials (no, this is not an RE reference) that they are using, which doesn't seem out of place, as you are implying, since the build looks rather run-down anyway.

Also, hi Lisa!

I already referenced that photo before and nobody said anything about. Who knows how this is going to play out, but I can't forsee it going well. ("Stay by me, Rose. I'm so scared I can't stand it. Please.")

Besides, Eccles will probably be pissed that Thesaly Lerner's tender, dramatic voice won't be used for Lisa.

I have only taken one English class in my four years of college and am actually better oriented towards math and science than I am writing. I consider writing (or creative writing) as just a hobby of mine.

Though I get the feeling he'll chuck it in given the pile of story notes I sent him yesterday

Reading through your story wasn't hard, I finished it and the poem in a rather short amount of time. What I find over-whelming, is the amount of crap I have to write to fix all your inconsistencies, misconceptions, and the rest of the junk that doesn't adhere to the Silent Hill series. I've already written three pages on the matter and I haven't even gotten to Gabrielle yet! (You know if I'm spending a lot of time on this, that there is something worth writing about.)

I think I'm just going to chunk it and send you a section back at a time, since it's taking way too long to get all my thoughts written at once.

Unless there is something horribly off in the movie itself, it looks incredibly faithful to the concept of SH (and lets face it, that "concept" is more to the core of what SH is about than any plotline or character in particular)

There is a difference between the "concept" of the games, as you put it, and the visual appearance of the games. Thus far, the film has been very faithful to the visual appearance of the games, most particularly, the trailers used for the games and the featured shorts (Fukuro, Ki-no-ko, et. al.). The concept of the games are the plotlines and characters in the games. Without proper attention to these two things, you get things like Dying Inside, which is very faithful the visual appearance of the games, but is greatly lacking in capturing the "concept" of Silent Hill.

In addition, the visual concept is not what is at the core of the Silent Hill series, but is what is so characteristic about it. The real "core" of Silent Hill is the concept of human interaction in the context of love and desire, which results in the raise of dark images and visuals when there are things that complicate our reception of love and our fulfilment of desire.

[flipsideshooze]

i didn't read through some of the last posts because i;m too excited to, so if this is a repeat, sorry

but toward the end of that trailer, when they show the silent hill sign... anyone notice it has an "in theaters......" text at the top?!?!?!?! it looks like 6/21/06 to me... but my copy is too grainy to be sure...

anyone else see this?!

[CIaude]

i didn't read through some of the last posts because i;m too excited to, so if this is a repeat, sorry

but toward the end of that trailer, when they show the silent hill sign... anyone notice it has an "in theaters......" text at the top?!?!?!?! it looks like 6/21/06 to me... but my copy is too grainy to be sure...

anyone else see this?!

I thought it said 4/21/06

[ifirit]

i didn't read through some of the last posts because i;m too excited to, so if this is a repeat, sorry

but toward the end of that trailer, when they show the silent hill sign... anyone notice it has an "in theaters......" text at the top?!?!?!?! it looks like 6/21/06 to me... but my copy is too grainy to be sure...

anyone else see this?!

I thought it said 4/21/06

Yes, the film officially releases in the US on April 21, 2006.

[BocoDragon]

In addition, the visual concept is not what is at the core of the Silent Hill series, but is what is so characteristic about it. The real "core" of Silent Hill is the concept of human interaction in the context of love and desire, which results in the raise of dark images and visuals when there are things that complicate our reception of love and our fulfilment of desire.

I think you are right to have your interpretation, but it is only one of many (and seems to apply to SH2 alone). It would also be right to say that Silent Hill is simply a story about people with personal issues lost in a nightmarish town.

You think I am talking about the "look", but I am talking about the style, and the style of SH is SH.

But yes, a good film adaption will have metaphorical expressions of humanity like your "love and desire". I just don't think it has to be that metaphor necessarily. How about "parental loss"? (yeah I suppose that's love too)

[Eccles]

Besides, Eccles will probably be pissed that Thesaly Lerner's tender, dramatic voice won't be used for Lisa.

Damn right. To be fair, though, when you see Thesally Lerner it's pretty easy to see why they won't be scripting her as Lisa. 'cause...y'know, they look nothing like one another. Also she's more suited to doing kids shows...if you look up the voice acting clips on her site it's all like "HEY KIDS! WOW, CRAZY THINGS! WHEEE!" and Lisa doesn't even get a look-in. I suppose this is why the crew went for her: yes she has a soft, gentle voice, but so do lots of other actresses...a kids show voice would be virtually unknown in the gaming world.

What I find over-whelming, is the amount of crap I have to write to fix all your inconsistencies, misconceptions, and the rest of the junk that doesn't adhere to the Silent Hill series.

umm...did I not make it clear that I wasn't going for a Silent Hill thing? 'cause if I didnt, I meant to. Writing it as a silent hill story would greatly restrict what I had to work with and piss off people when I took it in my own direction (as your post shows).

The stuff I sent you wasn't a "What do you think of this as a Silent Hill tale" deal, but more of a "What do you think of this as a story in general" thing.

So...I dunno, you wanna read it through again or something? Hopefully you get this before you go on your loooong rant about how its nothing like a game I'm not trying to copy

[StarZander]

Ok, here are some good news, and some bad news, about the movie:

First the bad news... It seems that Akira Yamaoka no longer will be making the score for the movie, but instead the task will be handed over to Jeff Danna, who made the music for Resident Evil: Apocalypse. He might use some music from the game, but nothing original for the film will be made by Akira Yamaoka, it seems.

Source: http://www.musicfromthemovies.com/article.asp?ID=589

Then we have the good news. Someone has made the flash teaser trailer into a .wmv file, and cleared it up alot, so this is a very nice treat for all of you who have had problems with the site, but also for those who've just seen the flash version. Alot of new and yummy details in here. Enjoy.

ftp://ftp.futurenet.co.uk/pub/cvg/sh_movie_teaser.wmv

[Eccles]

I said it on MSN and I'll say it hyah...

They could have gotten a worse composer, some of the stuff Danna has been involved with has been pretty good. 8MM, for example.

He's good with the moody music, so you can count on him not using a stupid techno soundtrack.

[Razumen]

First the bad news... It seems that Akira Yamaoka no longer will be making the score for the movie, but instead the task will be handed over to Jeff Danna, who made the music for Resident Evil: Apocalypse. He might use some music from the game, but nothing original for the film will be made by Akira Yamaoka, it seems.

CRAP!

Sorry, but I was really looking forward to it.

[Nulion]

Hehe...I just heard about this Jeff Danna story myself, and it was a huge disappointment - but as usual it was people on the net twisting the truth without actually knowing it...

Someone had sent an e-mail to Mr. Danna just recently, and here is the mail and response:

_____

> Hi Jeff,

>

> I have a brief question.

>

> I'm guessing that Silent Hill fans have probably

> bombarded your email account with expletive-filled

> rants and some have probably threatened your life.

> I'll try to be a little bit nicer.

>

> Ok, my question is simply if it's true that you're

> scoring Silent Hill, and if so, what is the extent of

> your inclusion? Are you doing the whole movie,

> collaborating with Akira Yamaoka? What's going on?

>

> It's been a big issue with SH fans because Akira's

> music is so vital an element in the games that a

> Silent Hill movie without his sound is almost destined

> to fail. I liked your RE: Apocalypse score, but this

> Silent Hill movie really needs Yamaoka.

>

> Thanks for your time,

>

> - Andrew

_____

And here's the reply

Hi Andrew , actually no one has sent me anything yet. There wouldn't

really be any point to anyone cussing at me anyway , since a composer

must follow his director's orders , [ just like everyone else on the

film ] , no matter how he feels or anyone else feels.

In this film , the score is based completely on Akira's music ,

I'm

just there to help with some of the timing/dramatic/scene-to-scene

issues , that make a film score a very different thing than a video

game

score. It's going to sound just like the game , so if you are a fan of

Akira's music , you will be very happy with it.

Thanks for your interest,

JD

_____

So we can relax, Akira is still doing the score Danna's just going to be helping him out, which isn't bad. That one site up there apparently took Danna's involvement to mean that he was doing the entire thing, which isn't true. Thank. God.

[RazorOutlaw]

Well he said the score (I would assume Jeff mean's his own score) is based on Akira's work. He didn't mention Akira doing the score at all in his reply, or am I just not reading between the lines?

[Nulion]

He said "I'm just there to help with some of the timing\dramatic\scene-to-scene issues, that make a film score a very different thing from a video game score"

Soo...that sounds heavily to me like all he's doing is supervising, while Yamaoka does the actual work on the score.

[StarZander]

There is a new website out, that has dubbed itself as the official fansite for the Silent Hill movie. It just launched, so there's not much there yet, but soon it will be filled with alll the info on the movie that's ever been released. Links to all the interviews, the teaser in .wmv and .mov formats, and many other things will be available. The teaser is already there. Check it out.

http://www.silenthill-movie.net/

[CIaude]

I started playing the original Silent Hill not so long ago, and I just wanted to say I like it so far... A lot.

kthnx

[ifirit]

Ok, here are some good news, and some bad news, about the movie:

First the bad news... It seems that Akira Yamaoka no longer will be making the score for the movie, but instead the task will be handed over to Jeff Danna, who made the music for Resident Evil: Apocalypse. He might use some music from the game, but nothing original for the film will be made by Akira Yamaoka, it seems.

Source: http://www.musicfromthemovies.com/article.asp?ID=589

It's not very surprising about this since Franco-Canadian Productions also produced Resident Evil and RE2: Apocalyse with the same producer as the SH film, Sam Hadida, who by the way is producing the next RE film, After Life. (*Jibblies*)

This is one of the darker secrets about the SH film that I haven't brought light to earlier since I knew that it would not only bring up the whole Resident Evil vs Silent Hill argument, which is ridiculus to begin with, and because without a teaser/trailer/visual proof, people would begin doubting the capabilities of Franco-Canadian Productions to make a proper film adaptation of a game series. Hopefully, people will just see that it was improper writer/director selection that made fans so angry.

He said "I'm just there to help with some of the timing\dramatic\scene-to-scene issues, that make a film score a very different thing from a video game score"

Soo...that sounds heavily to me like all he's doing is supervising, while Yamaoka does the actual work on the score.

My worst fear about this film is that Gans tries to make this too literal an adaptation of the first game and actually calls for the exact music from the first game to be mixed for film score. It would seem like huge waste not use Aquila Jama O'ka's talents in the film for a custom soundtrack.

[CIaude]

SNAP! I'm stuck in the hospital in Silent Hill 1. I just finished the colored tiles puzzle and now I don't know where to go. I've grabbed the disinfecting alchol and the lighter but now I can't figure out what to do. I've checked every room on every floor 3 times over. The only thing that I can come up with is that it has something to do with that "Grim Reaper's List" and the slate board on the other end of the hall. Can anyone point me in the right direction? PLEASE?

[Eccles]

Sending you a PM!