OCR TF2: Stab stab stab!

[Nabeel Ansari]

Because Spies are renowned for their massive kill streaks. Right.

Even backstabbing a single Medic with full Uber pushes back the enemy offensive by at least a minute. A Sentry nest takes a couple of minutes to rebuild if you take one out. Spies are simply the class most able to penetrate enemy defenses in order to take out key targets like that.

Spies are to other team as proton torpedoes are to the death star.

[atmuh]

Even backstabbing a single Medic with full Uber pushes back the enemy offensive by at least a minute. A Sentry nest takes a couple of minutes to rebuild if you take one out. Spies are simply the class most able to penetrate enemy defenses in order to take out key targets like that.

ive got the global award for charged medics killed mostly because i played spy for a few weeks since dead ringer spy is just so dumb and i can tell you that most of those charged medic kills contributed next to nothing to the team actually winning and its absolutely no substitute for a decent soldier or demo pushing through

sentries are REALLY easy to take out now as more than one class just because spies can place sappers and take out the engineer if hes taking a nap doesnt mean anything

[Brushfire]

Remember when the Back Burner didn't suck?

[atmuh]

+25 max health

and in other news ive tried a zillion things and still cant see the cart glow

[ParanoidDrone]

ive got the global award for charged medics killed mostly because i played spy for a few weeks since dead ringer spy is just so dumb and i can tell you that most of those charged medic kills contributed next to nothing to the team actually winning and its absolutely no substitute for a decent soldier or demo pushing through

sentries are REALLY easy to take out now as more than one class just because spies can place sappers and take out the engineer if hes taking a nap doesnt mean anything

...

How did this argument go from "There are skills other than pure aim used in TF2" to "Soldier and Demoman are more effective fighters than Spy"?

Also I think you got the order backwards concerning the Sentry and Engineer.

[atmuh]

it was about the spy making an impact (it doesnt)

[Nabeel Ansari]

it was about the spy making an impact (it doesnt)

From reading this thread

1. You kill uber medics

2. You kill sentries

3. You take out snipers

4. You take out teleporters

5. You cause confusion

What do you count as an "impact" if none of that comes close?

[atmuh]

1. You kill uber medics

you didnt read what i said

2. You kill sentries

you didnt read what i said

3. You take out snipers

snipers, although being a class that requires a lot of skill, are just as useless as spies (unless its a lights on sniper like vg spud n death or whatever his name is, but he wears a razorback and is quite attentive to his surroundings)

4. You take out teleporters

devoting all or even a decent amount of your time as spy to take out teleporters with the way destroying sappers is now really is a waste of a player slot when you could have a combat class actually contributing by pushing the other team back and killing the teleporter as an afterthought

5. You cause confusion

who the heck gets confused because of a spy seriously

[ParanoidDrone]

From reading this thread

1. You kill uber medics

2. You kill sentries

3. You take out snipers

4. You take out teleporters

5. You cause confusion

What do you count as an "impact" if none of that comes close?

tl;dr Spies give the enemy a reason to worry about defending from within, as opposed to just the front lines?

[Aeronaut]

tl;dr Spies give the enemy a reason to worry about defending from within, as opposed to just the front lines?

Sounds about right.

[Kenogu Labz]

atmuh, your video on Hightower just scratches the surface. Gamemaster created something I'd like to call Kefka's Tower, replete with Light of Judgement, by exploiting that map and the Wrangler. Pics forthcoming.

[XeroZohar]

atmuh, your video on Hightower just scratches the surface. Gamemaster created something I'd like to call Kefka's Tower, replete with Light of Judgement, by exploiting that map and the Wrangler. Pics forthcoming.

This I gotta see.

[atmuh]

thats been done plenty of times before

[Nabeel Ansari]

you didnt read what i said

No I did and I think it's weak logic

you didnt read what i said

No I did and I think it's weak logic

snipers, although being a class that requires a lot of skill, are just as useless as spies (unless its a lights on sniper like vg spud n death or whatever his name is, but he wears a razorback and is quite attentive to his surroundings)

A Razorback works once, and most of the snipers I've backstabbed never bothered to wear one.

devoting all or even a decent amount of your time as spy to take out teleporters with the way destroying sappers is now really is a waste of a player slot when you could have a combat class actually contributing by pushing the other team back and killing the teleporter as an afterthought

Spies can push people back fyi

who the heck gets confused because of a spy seriously

"you didnt read what i said"

[atmuh]

youre talking about "logic" when im talking about actual in game experiences ive had time and time again

and if youre gonna say that what i said was weak logic dude youre saying spies throw teams into some crazy state of confusion guess what they dont unless youre the type of person that doesnt pay attention at all except then youre already in a crazy state of confusion so its no different

[Nabeel Ansari]

youre talking about "logic" when im talking about actual in game experiences ive had time and time again

and if youre gonna say that what i said was weak logic dude youre saying spies throw teams into some crazy state of confusion guess what they dont unless youre the type of person that doesnt pay attention at all except then youre already in a crazy state of confusion so its no different

Have you ever ignored a spy behind you?

IN maps like dustbowl where the entire team is rushing down a corridor with a big wall of rockets and guns if somebody shouts SPY BEHIND US I guarantee you are going to stop attacking and get rid of that spy. Those precious seconds (which one might think is really small) are all the defending team needs to push the attackers back.

tl:dr you look behind you for spy you get rocketed in the back.

Of course you can do for other classes, but everything one class can do another can. We really don't need any classes other than Soldier, Engineer, and Medic since they pretty much cover up the three categories of a team: Attack, Defense, Support.

EDIT: And I am speaking from experience when I've came at attackers from behind it threw their "impenetrable" attack wall apart and they were just dying from both sides.

[atmuh]

IN maps like dustbowl where the entire team is rushing down a corridor with a big wall of rockets and guns if somebody shouts SPY BEHIND US I guarantee you are going to stop attacking and get rid of that spy. Those precious seconds (which one might think is really small) are all the defending team needs to push the attackers back.

jump

spin to see if theres a spy heading towards you while midair

spin back in midair towards where you were heading in the first place if there was nothing behind you and keep attacking

takes less than a second and you dont miss anything

if the spy actually is heading towards you hes close enough that shooting him at most twice will kill him so hes paper thin

that takes about a second and a half which is no big deal

the players thatll actually chase a spy or look around for it when they have no idea where it is are generally the players that dont get how the game works

[Nabeel Ansari]

that takes about a second and a half which is no big deal

it's the same amount of time it takes for a rocket from behind to kill YOU.

[atmuh]

unless the soldier is right in front of you or hes actually fired the rocket before you turn (in which case you simply use the jump spin to also move out of the way), no it inst

[Nabeel Ansari]

unless the soldier is right in front of you or hes actually fired the rocket before you turn (in which case you simply use the jump spin to also move out of the way), no it inst

Wouldn't the SPY have to be right behind you for that to work?

[atmuh]

the only class (besides spy) where you wouldnt be anywhere near your team and be right up against any enemy class is scout

and getting backstabbed as scout is just about as embarrassing as getting killed by a backburner pyro

[Nabeel Ansari]

the only class (besides spy) where you wouldnt be anywhere near your team and be right up against any enemy class is scout

and getting backstabbed as scout is just about as embarrassing as getting killed by a backburner pyro

For attacking team: Scouts don't have the HP or power to destroy defensive sentries

For defending team: I'm pretty sure you can agree that scouts aren't good for defense.

Spies are, they can take the attacking team out from behind.

Especially a dead ringer spy. That can cause some people to get super paranoid and fire rockets/throw flames everywhere but where they're supposed to.

[atmuh]

For defending team: I'm pretty sure you can agree that scouts aren't good for defense.

what game are you playing

[Black Waltz]

what game are you playing

I think it's clear that atmuh is referring to this game from a competitive standpoint, while neblix is coming from a pubber point of view.

In a competitive game (or a pub game with decent people), a spy's ability to do much is pretty much based all on luck and timing since most people are aware of what's going on around them. From my experience playing on random pub servers, a spy can actually cause a good amount of chaos, ie: a bunch of silly engineers build all their stuff next to each other; spy saps everything, demo comes in and wipes everything out.

It's like comparing Brawl with all items on with Melee fox only, final destination only, no items, etc.

[atmuh]

i was more referring to the comment that he said that scouts are useless on defense which is really amusing to me