Attempting to Understand the Reality of Audio Production

[Igami]

Hello OCRemix community,

I am an aspiring OCRemixer and would love to get myself involved in the realm of electronically producing music.

Unfortunately, I tend to have a bad habit of confusing my aspirations with practicallity, so I thought it would be a great idea for me to sit down to hear from the live reality of other OCRemixers.

Right now, I possess absolutely no knowledge of anything relevant to music production. Software skillset, terms, anything. Well, that's stretching it, but let's just say I don't know enough to hold a worth-while conversation about music production with anyone here.

As unrealistic as this may sound, given the above, I honestly believe that the biggest wall for me is the technical skills and ground knowledge.

With that in mind, I'm going to go right ahead and fire away some questions. All answers and contributions are appreciated.

-What is the realistic time investment of learning the software, terminology, and theory behind music production, or perhaps simply music in general? I'm going to assume I missed a few key factors in my simple 3 point break down as well.

-What is the realistic financial investment involved in producing great sounding music? I believe the right word I'm looking for is samples.

-What comes first, learning arrangement or learning how to make samples sound good? Is it a person-dependent choice or an unspoken rule as to which comes first?

-How vital is it to be able to identify what each and every note is in any given song? Is it reasonable to simply "trust how it sounds," given "enough" audio exposure?

-Is music production a skill that can be self-taught with the right resources?

-How often do beginners up and quit after attempting and failing at producing music?

I really can't think of anything more I'd like to ask at this point. I'm sure that answers will lead to my further curiosity, so I'll leave this as a starting point.

Thanks for your help OCRemix.

-Igami

[bloodeyezack]

Hello OCRemix community,

I am an aspiring OCRemixer and would love to get myself involved in the realm of electronically producing music.

Unfortunately, I tend to have a bad habit of confusing my aspirations with practicallity, so I thought it would be a great idea for me to sit down to hear from the live reality of other OCRemixers.

Right now, I possess absolutely no knowledge of anything relevant to music production. Software skillset, terms, anything. Well, that's stretching it, but let's just say I don't know enough to hold a worth-while conversation about music production with anyone here.

As unrealistic as this may sound, given the above, I honestly believe that the biggest wall for me is the technical skills and ground knowledge.

With that in mind, I'm going to go right ahead and fire away some questions. All answers and contributions are appreciated.

-What is the realistic time investment of learning the software, terminology, and theory behind music production, or perhaps simply music in general? I'm going to assume I missed a few key factors in my simple 3 point break down as well.

-What is the realistic financial investment involved in producing great sounding music? I believe the right word I'm looking for is samples.

-What comes first, learning arrangement or learning how to make samples sound good? Is it a person-dependent choice or an unspoken rule as to which comes first?

-How vital is it to be able to identify what each and every note is in any given song? Is it reasonable to simply "trust how it sounds," given "enough" audio exposure?

-Is music production a skill that can be self-taught with the right resources?

-How often do beginners up and quit after attempting and failing at producing music?

I really can't think of anything more I'd like to ask at this point. I'm sure that answers will lead to my further curiosity, so I'll leave this as a starting point.

Thanks for your help OCRemix.

-Igami

I'm in the same boat as you. I just can't find the right way to ask for help. so far I have just been using wiki, the users manual, and just messing around with demos. Its hard to get a grasp of making the music flow togerther for me but I'll figure it out.

[Rozovian]

-What is the realistic time investment of learning the software, terminology, and theory behind music production, or perhaps simply music in general? I'm going to assume I missed a few key factors in my simple 3 point break down as well.

Tricky question. The two things that take up the most time is practice and listening. Especially listening. My advice would be to play your works next to similar but well-mixed tracks and trying to understand what sounds different, and how and why.

That's the most time-consuming part imo. Then there's reading articles, books, and threads about it, there's asking people for advice, and (at ocr) submitting your stuff to the workshop for feedback, later to the judges and being rejected a few times before your skills are on the right level. This thread might cast some further light on the subject.

-What is the realistic financial investment involved in producing great sounding music? I believe the right word I'm looking for is samples.

In my case, I made it on ocr with a computer and a DAW alone, no external commersial software. That makes it computer+300€, but depending on your DAW of choice you may have to get additional instruments. More money. Depends on your style, too. There are more free synths on the net than there are bagpipes soundfonts.

btw, samples are any and all audio files. Soundfonts are sample packs. Synths aren't. Note that you can sample synths and thus have synth samples - sampled audio from a synth.

-What comes first, learning arrangement or learning how to make samples sound good? Is it a person-dependent choice or an unspoken rule as to which comes first?

Everybody develops differently. When i came here, I had been writing music for a few years but didn't have much technical know-how in how to actually mix my stuff. Others might come here with good instrumental skills but difficulty in getting the notes down. Since you need both, learn both. You don't always know which skill you develop when you make a new song, so just make music and learn whatever you can.

-How vital is it to be able to identify what each and every note is in any given song? Is it reasonable to simply "trust how it sounds," given "enough" audio exposure?

Learn to transcribe is an important skill in remixing but it's not necessary to really work on. Not at this stage anyway. Once you have a basic knowledge of how to write melodies you have the basic knowledge of what notes don't fit in, making transcribing much easier. I'd say it's not the most improtant skill, but it's pretty useful when you try to remix something for which you can't find a midi rendition or when the midis you find aren't accurate enough.

-Is music production a skill that can be self-taught with the right resources?

I'd say yes. I'm self-taught, and tho I'm still learning I think I'm doing all right. Most of the time. Most people here aren't producers by education or profession, they're hobbyists. And they make good music.

-How often do beginners up and quit after attempting and failing at producing music?

Too often. It can take two years to get good enough to get posted on ocr, and that requires quite a bit of hard work. For me it took about a year since I joined, but I had a few years of practice before I came here, and that first mix of mine isn't that stellar.

--

Hope this helps guys. Welcome to the world of production.

PS. If you think you suck, you'll be more receptive to constructive criticism. If you think you're awesome, anyone who disagrees is wrong - that attitude won't help you improve much.

[Hy Bound]

It honestly takes a very long time before you get the hang of it. You can write pretty decent tracks within the first couple years, but really, I've been doing this (coming from having literally no knowledge of computer based composing and a couple years of piano i had forgotten about) for about 7 years and i finally feel like I'm getting at least somewhat professional-sounding mixes.

My first bit of advice is to pick up Reason or FL Studio so you have a good DAW and so there are plenty of people around here that can help you with questions you may have (Reaper is free, but fewer people use it). Start out by messing around with settings on a synth and sampler. I found it monumentally helpful to load up a preset and then tweak one knob to see what its changing, then set it back to where it was and go on to the next one. But most importantly, like Roz said, listen to what you're making and compare it to a similar, well-mixed track and see how you can change what you're doing to help fill out what piece you're missing.

Really its just a lot of trial and error; meaning most people get frustrated and give up, but if you're patient and interested enough you can make some pretty incredible stuff with even "low-end" software and equipment.

[Igami]

Thanks for the responses, Rozovian & Hy Bound.

The thread you provided was very helpful, probably because of the general mood that's going on in that thread.

I actually really feel like there's nothing more to ask at this point.

Everything that's bouncing around my mind are things like "which program should I dive into" and "what are the best tuts and sites to get me started," which are really all things I could just google or search on OCRemix.

I guess for a more broad approach, what are the differences between the major softwares out there? I guess I'll target FL Studio, Reason, and Kontakt. I'll be researching this one since it's pretty important.

Slightly more specific, is there such a thing as "the beginner's program," or does it just depend on which program I like better?

And a more technical question, is there a difference between using the PC or Mac versions of softwares besides keyboard shortcuts? Should I simply get the version for my stronger computer (Mac in this case)?

Thanks ahead of time for input.

[Kanthos]

The big advantage of using a Mac is that Mac uses Core Audio which provides low-latency audio support out of the box. Most standard sound cards for Windows PCs will run at a much higher latency since they aren't designed for heavy-duty audio work. If you don't want to record any real instruments and aren't playing a MIDI keyboard or anything where you need a dedicated MIDI interface, using a Mac will be cheapest for you, given that you already have one. I'm assuming by stronger you mean that your Mac is more powerful (as opposed to you're more comfortable with OSX than Windows); if so, definitely use that.

For starting out, I'd suggest that the first thing you do is read this. As far as instruments and effects go, any reasonably-priced DAW should give you some to start with, but it won't take you very long to find that some things are lacking, and that list will help you out.

As for a DAW, I recommend starting with Ableton Live, if only because you can get a free unlimited 30-day trial and because it has a great set of lessons built into the software. Other DAWs may or may not have lessons; starting as a complete beginner on a DAW without lessons will probably lead to frustration that won't let you evaulate the DAW effectively. If FL Studio has lessons, that's probably a better place to start since so many people here use FL compared to other DAWs, so you'll find it a bit easier perhaps to get help. Another good choice is Reaper, because it's really cheap (I think it's something like $50 for a non-commercial license, and I don't believe it's initially limited unless you pay anything either).

Reason is a bit of a different issue. Some people here swear by it, but its big limitation (or big improvement over other DAWs, depending on how you look at it) is that it doesn't support plugin formats beyond its own, which means you can't download some random VST synth and use it in Reason. If you're comfortable with the workflow, the available instruments, and the price, Reason can certainly be a good choice, but just be aware that it's limited in this way.

[Zephyr]

I guess for a more broad approach, what are the differences between the major softwares out there? I guess I'll target FL Studio, Reason, and Kontakt. I'll be researching this one since it's pretty important.

Workflow is the primary difference between the major DAW's (Digital Audio Workstations). Most of them can all do the same things, it's just different in how they do them. For this reason, it's hard to say that one is better than the others, so you'll just have to go ahead and try them out to see for yourself, most of the major ones have demos available to try. I myself started with FL Studio, but make sure you choose what works for you.

Just so you know, Kontakt isn't actually a DAW, it's a library of samples with a good sample player that you can use as a plugin inside a DAW, so you can't use just Kontakt alone.

Slightly more specific, is there such a thing as "the beginner's program," or does it just depend on which program I like better?

Like I said above, it depends mostly on what you like better, if you understand the way one works better than the others, then that's probably the one for you.

And a more technical question, is there a difference between using the PC or Mac versions of softwares besides keyboard shortcuts? Should I simply get the version for my stronger computer (Mac in this case)?

Thanks ahead of time for input.

If a program has both PC and Mac versions then no, there will likely be next to no difference between the programs (unless the Mac versions only accept AU plugins, but someone else will have to correct me on that)

However it should be mentioned that not all programs have both Mac and PC versions, for instance FL Studio is PC only, and Logic Studio is Mac only. Other than that, then the difference should be negligible.

[Rozovian]

If a program has both PC and Mac versions then no, there will likely be next to no difference between the programs (unless the Mac versions only accept AU plugins, but someone else will have to correct me on that)

IIRC, Reaper had no trouble running VSTs despite Logic and GB's disregard for VST - which seems to just be Apple's way of supporting their pet plugin format instead of sabotaging any other software's compatibility with VST.

GarageBand is, btw, not a bad option for someone starting out (dunno where you're at), especially as it can be supplemented with free AU stuff from all over the net. Then again, it's a gateway drug to Logic because GB projects can be opened in Logic without losing any data, and even some of GB's synths can be updated to ES2 without changing the sound.

Still a good idea to try some other DAWs too, tho GB is great at learning the basics with. It took me a few weeks to adjust to Logic after previously using GB, and I guess the adjustment period would be longer when changing to a DAW with a different workflow.

[Igami]

Workflow is the primary difference between the major DAW's (Digital Audio Workstations). Most of them can all do the same things, it's just different in how they do them. For this reason, it's hard to say that one is better than the others, so you'll just have to go ahead and try them out to see for yourself, most of the major ones have demos available to try. I myself started with FL Studio, but make sure you choose what works for you.

Just so you know, Kontakt isn't actually a DAW, it's a library of samples with a good sample player that you can use as a plugin inside a DAW, so you can't use just Kontakt alone.

I'm glad you brought that up. I was researching Kontakt since it seems to be relatively popular, and because I really enjoyed the samples from zircon and Sixto's* (Thanks for fix Rozovian, bad memory) recent Shreddage guitar samples that only work in Kontakt. But depsite all of that, I couldn't seem to find any sort of interface for any amount of sequencing.

I also realized that, for one reason or another, I have a fully functional version of FL Studio 8 on my PC. I toyed around with it a little and I kind of enjoy how everything works.

If I were to combine FL Studio with Kontakt, would that be a relatively devastating combination for both arrangement and sound quality? Are these two even compatible to begin with?

And as a more realistic question, is it even reasonable to jump straight into Kontakt, given how much of a novice I am?

I'm sure there are other sampling options that I don't know about. (Like the stuff in Kanthos's link).

Thanks again for everyone's input. Even if I'm not directly responding to everything, I am taking it all in.

[Rozovian]

I'm glad you brought that up. I was researching Kontakt since it seems to be relatively popular, and because I really enjoyed the samples from zircon and SnappleMan's recent Shreddage guitar samples that only work in Kontakt. But depsite all of that, I couldn't seem to find any sort of interface for any amount of sequencing.

...

If I were to combine FL Studio with Kontakt, would that be a relatively devastating combination for both arrangement and sound quality? Are these two even compatible to begin with?

And as a more realistic question, is it even reasonable to jump straight into Kontakt, given how much of a novice I am?

You mean Sixto Sounds. Shreddage=zircon+Sixto.

Kontakt works as a plugin. You load it in your DAW as an instrument, then in select in which instrument in Kontakt you want to use. Like bringing your own electric piano/synth to a studio. You plug it into the studio equipment, and then you select your favorite sounds on it.

If the DAW of your choice (which atm seems to be GB or FL) support the plugin format (VST, AU (mac only), RTAS (protools only iirc)...) you just install it and load it up in the DAW. Kontakt should exist in all three formats.

I don't think Kontakt will be too hard for a novice. You just won' be using all the features, you'll just be loading up an instrument and make the tweaks you know to do.

btw, I would recommend using the tools that come with the DAW (be it GB or FL or whatever) as a way of learning more advanced ones. When you run out of things to do with those, you can always supplement them with free stuff.

At the same time tho, don't be afraid to spend some money on more professional equipment. There's a free synth/sampler thing called Crystal which is similar to Omnisphere in a lot of ways (the envelopes, multiple voices with different samples, separate filters, lots of blending options), but you get so much more advanced features in Omnisphere, and much higher quality sounds to work with. Same with anything, a free EQ won't get you as clean a result as a professional-level mastering EQ, soundfonts won't get you the quality of a professional sound library, etc..

[Arcana]

Yes, it's possible to teach yourself.

And yes, it takes a long time. I don't think anyone would argue if I told you that learning the production side from zero to OCR-quality will probably take "years".

As for which order to learn in - theory/music writing vs. production? It doesn't really matter. You kind of need one before you can do the other (you can't make a good mixdown if you don't have a song to work on after all) but it doesn't actually take that long to get up to a basic level with arrangement (probably a few months). As you might have figured out though, OCR is very production-oriented; a lot of the people who get posted tend to be really good at things like sound design and mixing. When people "talk shop" at OCR they tend to discuss the production aspect of things much more so than the arrangements.

As far as what tools to use, you do have a lot of options. I'd recommend the following:

- Good monitoring. That is, get a set of headphones or studio monitors that are known for their accuracy. There's a thread for what speakers or headphones to buy. Good monitoring is essential (those are Zircon's words, not mine).

You can get a good pair of headphones that'll suffice for under $200. Generally, I consider them to be the first thing I'd recommend someone who wants to get into music to purchase because you'll start hearing things better. Also, they're something that you'll use even if you quit music (but let's not go there!)

- Some audio program to work in. I think everyone else covered them quite well. However most of these are quite expensive ($400+) so try to get demos or the "basic" versions of the software first.

As mentioned you can also spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on things like Kontakt (see my Kontakt thread also on this forum for info about it), East-West, Spectrasonics, and other things like that. To be very very honest with you I'd suggest not buying them until you're comfortable with the process of making songs and start feeling limited by things like free soundfonts and samples.

Also, look for free versions of stuff. Kontakt has a time-limited demo that contains 600MB of samples. East-West released an unlimited-use package of about 17 instruments not long ago. Reason has a time-limited demo. Those kinds of things, in combination with free VSTs/AUs and default samples, should be able to entertain you for a year or two.

FLStudio is about $150 or so. Garageband of course comes free on your Mac, so I recommend it to people who are interested in music. Logic Express (the version of Logic that comes with fewer plugins) is something like $200.

Kontakt costs about $400, if you get the "bonus pack" with extra plugins then it costs more than that. It's not that bad for beginner to use but quite honestly I'd recommend that you make a few songs in the program of choice with the default (or free) samples before you go and spring for Kontakt. You might want to see the thread (http://ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28540) on it as well if you haven't already.

[Zephyr]

Yes Kontakt and FL Studio is definitely a viable combination, it's what I use primarily (supplemented with a bunch of free stuff).

However, price is definitely something to consider; as Kontakt is really quite expensive. If you have the cash and you're serious about this, then go ahead I suppose. Kontakt will be easy enough for a beginner to use, but you may need a bit of help learning to set it up in FL for the first time. If you get to that point then just let me know and I'll walk you through it.

[Igami]

Yes Kontakt and FL Studio is definitely a viable combination, it's what I use primarily (supplemented with a bunch of free stuff).

However, price is definitely something to consider; as Kontakt is really quite expensive. If you have the cash and you're serious about this, then go ahead I suppose. Kontakt will be easy enough for a beginner to use, but you may need a bit of help learning to set it up in FL for the first time. If you get to that point then just let me know and I'll walk you through it.

I'll most likely have to take you up on that offer when the time arrives, thanks. The biggest question that came to my mind in relevance to Kontakt and FL Studio was, if soundfonts (? correct me if I'm using these terms wrong) like Shreddage are exclusive to Kontakt, then how do you sequence with it if Kontakt isn't a DAW?

Of course, I understand a little better now that it's (Kontakt) is mostly just a library, and by some method I don't understand yet, it's possible to turn Shreddage (convenient example) into a plug-in that FL Studio can read, and go from there.

A few more questions,

I keep forgetting to mention this in my posts, but the kind of instrument selection I'm going for is in the spectrum of orchestral, piano, wind instruments, electronic? (an example that comes to mind is Protricity's ReMix, "Brainsick Metal." Something along those lines with my "style" instead), guitar (lead and rythm), bass, and obviously some form of drums.

Based on the above, would Kontakt be a "once and for all" purchase, even at the most professional level? I'll re-read Arcana's thread about Kontakt on top of asking this to hopefully get a very thorough view on this.

I realize that most of those are still pretty vague since I don't know the specifics, but hopefully I'll figure that out over time.

Second and last question for now, should I be careful with the song that I first choose to mix? Or should I not even start by mixing and instead start by composing random beats?

Financial things aren't TOO big of a problem for me. Purchasing a DAW of choice and a sound library (most likely Kontakt at this point, but obviously I have to do a lot more looking) sounds like a comfortable spending range ($600-700) for many years to come.

And to close, given that I really only have summer vacations free for me to actually dedicate a reasonable amount of attention to this commitment, the upcoming one being my first, I believe at this point that working with defaults and the free things provided on zircon's "best free music software" page will be as far as I would really be getting in a practical situation.

I do have a version of FL Studio 8 on my computer (from somewhere), so I believe that I'll proceed with this as an experiment. Since I don't know if this copy is pirated or legit, I'll end up buying a copy once and for all when I feel ready for it.

As implied by summer "vacation," I'm still just a college student, sophomore specifically, and I get the sense that most everyone on OCRemix is older than me.

As always, my thanks to everyone's input and advice.

[Arcana]

This isn't technically accurate but it'll illustrate what happens from the user point of view.

Kontakt is a sampler. It is a software plug-in whose job is to load up the right sound files and play them back when you press a note on your keyboard.

In any program, you have a track. The track is set up so that it plays a number of notes in sequence.

Basically, you'd load up program of choice, assign the instrument to "Kontakt", and then you'd double click on the Kontakt interface and load up the instrument that you want. At this stage you could load up, for example, VSL strings, or drums, or Shreddage.

Then, you'll be able to drag and drop the notes on the track.

This goes for almost every software that plays back sounds. If you used a software synthesizer instead of Kontakt, it would play back simulated synthesizer-like stuff (made from oscillators and the like) rather than music sound files.

Shreddage is a library - basically it's a set of files that you would load inside Kontakt once you got the plugin set up and loaded. AFAIK there's no way to run it outside of Kontakt but Zircon would be able to give you the definitive answer.

I highly, highly, highly recommend that you fiddle around with your program of choice before spending money on Kontakt. And, download the Kontakt demos from the NI web site. Doing so will help answer a lot of your questions about how the workflow works.

Second and last question for now, should I be careful with the song that I first choose to mix? Or should I not even start by mixing and instead start by composing random beats?

Are you talking about choosing a song that'll "maximize" the chance you'll get accepted on OCR?

Honestly I'd just do anything you want to do. Your passion is going to drive you for much longer than your "I'm going to be a posted OC ReMixer" will.

It's not like you can't compose more than one song either so don't worry about what you start doing. Heck, you can go ahead and compose many songs at the same time. Personally I started out with remixing because I was obsessed with Suikoden music at the time but there's no right or wrong way to approach it.

[Igami]

Thanks for the Kontact <-> FL Studio 101.

I 100% plan on playing around with FL Studio defaults. I'll probably end up posting "for the lols" mixes all collectively in a thread just so I can hear what people have to say.

As for my second question, I wasn't really thinking about "maximizing" OCRemix acceptability rates.

I was more so thinking about, are there certain effects, particularly synths, or articulations(?) that may be much more difficult for a novice to pull off at all?

For example, the oscillations in the first 20 seconds of zircon's ReMix, "Desertion," is something that I get the impression takes being very familiar with your programs in order to pull off.

I stepped in with the notion that some songs may have more difficult technical features in comparison to others, and since being properly conservative to the source is a must here on OCR, I assumed that some songs are more complex than others even before considering a ReMixer's interpretation.

I guess this still all ties back to the amount of passion I have for a particular source regardless of technicality, but this is also a factor as well, right?

[loomcore]

I was more so thinking about, are there certain effects, particularly synths, or articulations(?) that may be much more difficult for a novice to pull off at all?

For example, the oscillations in the first 20 seconds of zircon's ReMix, "Desertion," is something that I get the impression takes being very familiar with your programs in order to pull off.

It all really depends on how much previous knowledge of synthesis, sound design, sampling, etc. you have; don't worry if it's little or none, just get learning! If you're a geek like me you'll probably find it interesting anyway. Play around with synths and things in your DAW, and read up on certain aspects of music production that you find tricky when you can. There're plenty of online tutorials for this, especially the theory behind sound synthesis. I recommend Reason rather than Fruity Loops; I find that it makes signal path much clearer (but then again, I am somewhat biased, being self-taught with Reason ).

And BTW those "oscillations" (assuming I'm thinking of the same bit you are) are really easy to pull off. Read up on LFOs.

I stepped in with the notion that some songs may have more difficult technical features in comparison to others, and since being properly conservative to the source is a must here on OCR, I assumed that some songs are more complex than others even before considering a ReMixer's interpretation.

I guess this still all ties back to the amount of passion I have for a particular source regardless of technicality, but this is also a factor as well, right?

This is true, but it all depends upon what you have in mind to do with a particular song - I'm not going to tell you to limit yourself, but since you're new to this, perhaps aim low to start off with; do a few draft ReMixes to learn a bit, as practice, before submitting one proper. Use the WIP forum for advice and guidance, and adapt your draft/s into an acceptable ReMix once you're feeling confident(-ish ). Never stop experimenting; you'll keep stumbling across new way to make your compositions sound awesome. It's the difficult technical features that make your work stand out. Good luck!

(It helps too if you listen to a lot of electronic music, and try to think about what the producer has done to achieve a certain effect; try to emulate that as a means of practicing.)

--EDIT--

As implied by summer "vacation," I'm still just a college student, sophomore specifically, and I get the sense that most everyone on OCRemix is older than me.

*checks profile* I'm younger than you! lol

[Rozovian]

ppl on ocr are of all ages. I'm 24, and I feel young some days, old others. As will you.

I was more so thinking about, are there certain effects, particularly synths, or articulations(?) that may be much more difficult for a novice to pull off at all?

For example, the oscillations in the first 20 seconds of zircon's ReMix, "Desertion," is something that I get the impression takes being very familiar with your programs in order to pull off.

Like loomcore says, they're easy to do, seems to be just mod wheel action and one or two pitch bends in there (the slower pitch changes). Dunno if there's some pitch motion in the samples themselves.

Synths are easier than "real" instruments, since you can get away with less performance and more sound design. imo anyway, but I suck at performance and humanizing and stuff.

I stepped in with the notion that some songs may have more difficult technical features in comparison to others, and since being properly conservative to the source is a must here on OCR, I assumed that some songs are more complex than others even before considering a ReMixer's interpretation.

I guess this still all ties back to the amount of passion I have for a particular source regardless of technicality, but this is also a factor as well, right?

Yeah, some songs are harder than others. The Super Mario Bros Theme/Overworld is actually among the trickier since it doesn't adhere to a strict scale. By contrast, the theme to Halo is really simple.

Of course, some sources don't fit some genres well, and then you have to rework them a bit. A good example of how the reworking works is the Song of Storms/Windmill Hut from Zelda OoT, which has been remixed a thousand times on youtube (and on ocr, (shameless plug)), despite that the original is in 3/4, not 4/4. A good example of a source difficult to mix in something other than jazz would be the SMB theme/overworld since the melody remains jazz pretty much no matter what you try.

Some games, some composers, have more accessible music than others. Modern games tend to lose the arrangement in sound design sometimes, so the older/portable games tend to have music that's easier to analyze. That said, there are pretty complex arrangements in old music, and some new music is pretty simple, musically.

Pick a few tracks you like, play around with them. Can't think of any better practice, and it's not for a failure of imagination.

[dannthr]

-What is the realistic time investment of learning the software, terminology, and theory behind music production, or perhaps simply music in general? I'm going to assume I missed a few key factors in my simple 3 point break down as well.

How much time do you got? This is something you spend your whole life getting better at and if you think for one second that you're as good as it gets, you're either wrong or severely challenged. Music is a pursuit, every different element that goes into creating that can take a lifetime to master.

-What is the realistic financial investment involved in producing great sounding music? I believe the right word I'm looking for is samples.

How much money do you got? This is also something you will never cease to do, there is no end to the development of technology and the production equipment and software costs are more like... a rolling expense for professionals.

-What comes first, learning arrangement or learning how to make samples sound good? Is it a person-dependent choice or an unspoken rule as to which comes first?

There is no first, these are skills that you will spend a long time developing, the important thing to understand is that when you're beginning/starting out, you need to separate the development of these skills so that you can understand your strengths and weaknesses and where to go next without being distracted by the other process (or, in fact, being held back by the other process).

-How vital is it to be able to identify what each and every note is in any given song? Is it reasonable to simply "trust how it sounds," given "enough" audio exposure?

More vital is the ability to dissect a song into its parts to understand how the production or arrangement process came together for that particular track. You should be able to listen to a track and separate all the parts (whether it be instruments, or melody, or motifs, or production techniques applied) and analyze their usage in context. Listening should be an analytical skill.

-Is music production a skill that can be self-taught with the right resources?

Yup. More importantly, you must have the attitude that you are going to engage the whole craft with the intention of learning (whether you're in school or not, with a tutor or teacher or not).

-How often do beginners up and quit after attempting and failing at producing music?

One of the greatest distinctions between an amateur and a professional is attitude. Professionals push on when it gets hard or time-consuming, amateurs do not. A beginner might not quit entirely, but they might just stop for a while or do it when they're bored or when they feel inspired.

Other than explaining that particular perspective, I don't know how such a statistic could be measured.

Music production/composition, especially for games, is a full throttle enterprise--you really have to be willing to dive into it with full guns blazing with a willingness and fortitude to stick it out when the shit hits the fan because it will.

[Arcana]

Thanks for the Kontact <-> FL Studio 101.

I 100% plan on playing around with FL Studio defaults. I'll probably end up posting "for the lols" mixes all collectively in a thread just so I can hear what people have to say.

What's your music background like? If you have a good understanding of composition and theory you're likely going to get a lot of good advice on the WIP forums.

As for my second question, I wasn't really thinking about "maximizing" OCRemix acceptability rates.

I was more so thinking about, are there certain effects, particularly synths, or articulations(?) that may be much more difficult for a novice to pull off at all?

For example, the oscillations in the first 20 seconds of zircon's ReMix, "Desertion," is something that I get the impression takes being very familiar with your programs in order to pull off.

I stepped in with the notion that some songs may have more difficult technical features in comparison to others, and since being properly conservative to the source is a must here on OCR, I assumed that some songs are more complex than others even before considering a ReMixer's interpretation.

I guess this still all ties back to the amount of passion I have for a particular source regardless of technicality, but this is also a factor as well, right?

To be quite honest I think that remixing is much more dependent on how well you listen and how good your understanding of music theory, music composition, and composition styles are than on the actual production of the pieces. A lot of the video games here have sources that aren't production-intensive at all (I mean, half of the tunes are from the NES). Particular genres have elements of production that are more difficult than others though.

Electronic music in general benefits heavily from tight production and synth design. I don't find it particularly hard to do but you will discover that over time you'll get better.

Some instruments are hard to sequence well. Violins (especially solo violins) are pretty difficult to make realistic sounding for example. Guitar can sound bad if you don't sequence it well. There are however a ton of people out there who know how to play guitar and you can often get someone to play guitar parts for you if you intend to release a song.

All music benefits from different production elements like filling the sound scape, proper panning, etc. If you want to get a sense of what a lot of people look for, sit down and go through the Judges' reviews as well as the WIP Forum reviews. You'll get a sense of what people comment on, production-wise.

[Igami]

What's your music background like? If you have a good understanding of composition and theory you're likely going to get a lot of good advice on the WIP forums.

As far as formal education in anything music-related, absolutely zero. I learned the drum set informally from a friend for a few months who's been doing it for years, and based on his analysis, I got pretty far pretty quick. No ego trip or anything. I know I'm still a newb.

I don't know how much this counts for, but I've listened to every single mix on OCRemix at least once, and some select few (about 900 of them) I listen to constantly and have compiled thousands of listens per track over the span of 5 to 6 years.

I, of course, also listen to many video game OSTs. Some that come to mind on the spot are Sonic Adventure 2, Super Mario Galaxy, and Legend of Mana.

I'm also very into Japanese music because of their overall complexity (in my opinion anyways) and simply because I love the Japanese language. My forum name, Igami, is Japanese, so to anyone here who already recognized it as Japanese (a vague, removed-from-context translation of Igami is "distortion"), this may not be a surprise.

I've been listening to different styles of Japanese music for 7 years.

I listen to music 18+ hours a day at a highly controlled volume level since I'm well aware of the nastiness of hearing loss.

Sometimes I mentally compose random beats or remixes of other songs, and I believe that they are acceptable as a "step 1." At the very least, I believe my senses have matured over the last 3 or 4 years of writing songs in my head.

I understand some basics about making music sound rich, like using pads to give a very simple example, but until I really sit down and apply what's bouncing around my head, I don't believe I'll really know anything.

In short, if I picked up anything about music composition and theory, it would have come from listening to all that music for all these years. Perhaps it's possible, perhaps it isn't. My head is just jam packed with ideas for just about any VGM, but I've never had a venue for getting them out of my head.

So here I am.

[Yoozer]

As unrealistic as this may sound, given the above, I honestly believe that the biggest wall for me is the technical skills and ground knowledge.

I honestly believe you're incorrect.

Technology changes. You don't even need the technology. You'll be far better off by simply taking piano lessons - not online, Youtube videos don't slap you on the wrist when you're doing something wrong. While you could of course choose any other instrument - well, none of those have the interface with a computer in the way keyboards have.

A good song will sound good when it's just played on guitar or piano; if it doesn't work on that alone, you better have some real spectacular sounddesign to compensate for it.

If you're going to do everything yourself anyway, invest in that knowledge first and worry less about the technology. You can always buy better synthesizers, samplers and effects; but you can't buy a year of study on an instrument.

-What is the realistic time investment of learning the software, terminology, and theory behind music production, or perhaps simply music in general?

A lifetime.

You don't learn to play an instrument in 2 weeks. Not even in a year. After 20 years it can still surprise you.

The terminology is simply to replace 3 sentences of explanation with a single word. There's glossaries for that and you need a fraction on what's on the page for the letter A.

-What is the realistic financial investment involved in producing great sounding music? I believe the right word I'm looking for is samples.

Making music electronically has never been cheaper and it'll only get cheaper; mostly because the expensive software tools have dropped in price and your computer takes on it a load that was unimaginable 2 decades ago.

There are a few basic investments I personally deem necessary to start out the proper way:

- an audio interface (a soundcard for making music as opposed to an on-board one or one for games). Those can be had for $50 secondhand (M-Audio Audiophile 2496, E-mu 0404).

- a controller keyboard (invest in a good one, it's likely to outlast most of the stuff in your future studio). An E-mu Xboard with 61 keys (that's a recommended size, less than that is not suitable for learning) can be had for around $150 secondhand.

- a set of good monitor speakers (as opposed to hi-fi speakers which sweeten and color the sound, making things sound better than it really is). This is the biggest investment and again they'll last a while; but they're your ears.

- DAW software. This can be cheap; provided that you're willing to learn, Reaper starts at $60. Buying a soundcard or controller new usually gets you a free copy of a "lite" version of the sequencing software, which means you can save a bit of cash on upgrades.

The reason I say personally is because several people here will say that headphones are just as good. They're not; they're different. It's good if your audience listens to music on headphones, but headphones have certain characteristics that mean that mixes do not always translate very well from headphones to speakers, and you have to learn and know them well to be reasonably certain that what sounds great at your place doesn't sound like ass at everyone else's.

Plugins: lots of free ones - also lots of crappy ones. You'll have to live with a not-so-hyper-realistic piano tone if you're strapped for cash, and generally speaking the Windows platform has more freeware than OS X.

All however depends on the DAW software; and that choice is personal. Logic isn't available on Windows, FL Studio not on OS X, and them's the breaks.

It's hard to explain, but you have to think in the same way the designers of the software did. This is not much of an issue when you're starting out; it's specialized software with a learning curve that assumes that you already think in a certain way.

-What comes first, learning arrangement or learning how to make samples sound good?

Arrangement. This doesn't depend on personal choice, since no sample can save you if your arrangement sounds like crap.

-How vital is it to be able to identify what each and every note is in any given song?

It's not vital but awfully handy, because you'll notice when you're playing off-key, and I personally find it really convenient because it allows me to improvise faster without learning the piece by heart.

-Is music production a skill that can be self-taught with the right resources?

Yes, but it'll take a while.

-How often do beginners up and quit after attempting and failing at producing music?

I don't have statistics, but every time you see a brand new synthesizer on eBay for half its new price, assume it was a beginner that quit; to them, it turned out to be an expensive paperweight. Don't bite off more than you can chew.

I listen to constantly and have compiled thousands of listens per track over the span of 5 to 6 years.

Yes - but that's casual listening. Try this:

Take a piece of graph paper. Put it in front of you, tall side facing you. Pick a few of your favorite mixes. Make sure they're straight rock, trance, whatever - no waltzes or overly complicated rhythms, you should be able to count to four on each beat and make that fit. Preferably 3 minutes or less.

Each 4 clicks is a square on the graph paper. Start with the rhythm. Every 4 bars you hear rhythm, color the square and work from left to right. Try to identify elements; when does the rhythm kick in? When do you hear a drum solo - when do the drums stop? Hit the pause button as many times as you like.

Do this for every instrument you can identify; it doesn't matter if you don't know what a particular sound is called, just call it foo or bar - as long as you can draw and keep track of things, it's good.

You eventually end up with something that looks exactly what you'd see in your software on your computer - a bunch of blocks, stacked in layers. You've also made a start with identifying and analyzing music; and from that, you can learn a lot.

I understand some basics about making music sound rich, like using pads to give a very simple example

A word of advice; a single sentence proclaiming something like this ("to make things loud, you'll need compression". "To mix, you need an equalizer".) is useless. They're not nuggets of wisdom; they're nuggets of dog poop, oft repeated, almost always poorly understood.

The sentence literally makes no sense and doesn't teach you anything, because it lacks context. It does not explain the "why"; it's a highly condensed version of a 3-page story and in the best case, it's understood by the other party because they've done something like that themselves and came to a certain conclusion. In the worst part, it's mindlessly copied because someone with authority said it on the internets and it becomes cargo-cult wisdom.

My head is just jam packed with ideas for just about any VGM, but I've never had a venue for getting them out of my head.

Write them down. Even if it's a half-page description of how you'd do it. You're going to forget them otherwise.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Right now, I possess absolutely no knowledge of anything relevant to music production. Software skillset, terms, anything. Well, that's stretching it, but let's just say I don't know enough to hold a worth-while conversation about music production with anyone here.

As unrealistic as this may sound, given the above, I honestly believe that the biggest wall for me is the technical skills and ground knowledge.

Do you have any experience with music in general? I mean, do you play any instruments and/or have a decent knowledge of chord structure and music theory?

-What is the realistic time investment of learning the software, terminology, and theory behind music production, or perhaps simply music in general? I'm going to assume I missed a few key factors in my simple 3 point break down as well.

It depends on how proficient you need to be with the program in question. You can learn many of these programs will enough to do a simple, basic arrangement in a week or two. Learning all the ins and outs of the program, learning to get the best possible sound from the synths/samples you're using, learning how to get the highest-quality recordings for any live instruments you may be using, this is an ongoing process which you never really "finish." I've been doing this for years and I still feel like I've barely scraped the surface. But I know enough to make music that I'm happy with.

-What is the realistic financial investment involved in producing great sounding music? I believe the right word I'm looking for is samples.

Again, there isn't really a straightforward answer to this. You can do some pretty spectacular stuff using only free software/samples/synths/effects. However, if you have some money to throw around, you can get higher quality sound much easier in many cases.

As far as how much you'd be spending, the sky's the limit. If you can give us an idea of your budget, we can probably steer you in the right direction, but there isn't really any way for us to say "you need to spend exactly $XXX to be a good remixer." DarkeSword, Protricity, and Unknown use free sample almost exclusively. On the flipside, I've spent upwards of $20,000 on hardware and software specifically for making music -- I know some of the pros around here (like zircon) have probably spent a LOT more than that.

-What comes first, learning arrangement or learning how to make samples sound good? Is it a person-dependent choice or an unspoken rule as to which comes first?

I think they sort of come together. You can't really separate the two, in my opinion. Just practice, practice, practice.

-How vital is it to be able to identify what each and every note is in any given song? Is it reasonable to simply "trust how it sounds," given "enough" audio exposure?

Not that important, in my opinion. I'm sure some people will disagree with me on this point, though. I generally go by ear and stick with whatever sounds good. I often don't bother figuring out the exact chords of the original.

Having a general understanding of the structure of the original is important, but knowing every note played by every instrument in the original track isn't.

-Is music production a skill that can be self-taught with the right resources?

Yes. Like anything, formal education is probably helpful, but most of the remixers here (including myself) are self-taught.

-How often do beginners up and quit after attempting and failing at producing music?

I'd guess quite often. But I can't be sure; we generally don't keep track of people who try once and then quit unless they make a complete ass of themselves afterward.

I'll tell you right now: your first shot at remixing will probably suck. You'll think it's awesome, you'll sub it, the judges will tear it apart. Don't get discouraged and don't take it personally; it's like that for everybody.

I know all these vague "it depends" responses probably weren't what you were hoping for -- fortunately/unfortunately, making music is a very individual process, and everybody does it differently.

Best of luck!

[avaris]

Learn how to write and arrange music first IMO. This is much harder to grasp than mixing/mastering. I agree with Yoozer's point about making sure your compositions sound good on a piano/guitar before relying on an expensive synth/sampler.

EXPERIMENT!!!

No matter what you do keep on experimenting, trying out ideas, and most importantly having fun. By practicing and working at it over time alot of your other worries in terms of production and song writing will take care of themselves.

[Arcana]

- a set of good monitor speakers (as opposed to hi-fi speakers which sweeten and color the sound, making things sound better than it really is). This is the biggest investment and again they'll last a while; but they're your ears.

The reason I say personally is because several people here will say that headphones are just as good. They're not; they're different.

I agree that headphones aren't as good, but the reality is that even the most basic entry-level monitors are still REALLY expensive compared to a solid pair of headphones.

Monitors will START at $300. If you're saavy you might be able to get a pair for $200.

You can get above-average headphones for $150, and you can probably get something decent for $100. The cost difference is pretty large and if music is something you're not sure you want to be doing, it's much easier to justify a headphone purchase than a studio monitor purchase.

That said if you get serious about music, monitors make your life much easier, and more fun, and make your mixes sound better, etc.

Learn how to write and arrange music first IMO. This is much harder to grasp than mixing/mastering. I agree with Yoozer's point about making sure your compositions sound good on a piano/guitar before relying on an expensive synth/sampler.

This.

Personally I've experienced much more frustration from composing and arranging than I have through production.

Not only notes, but also song structure and song form, what ranges to cover, and what keys to use, and how to do cool music theory things like modulations and grace notes.

[Igami]

Thanks for the new perspectives, everyone.

To answer your question, Geoffrey Taucer, no. I learned a small chunk of set drumming from a friend for a few months, but I don't believe it was enough to really count.

As far as the knowledge side goes, completely zero.

And at this point, I don't think my budget for software and gear matter just yet. I believe prioritizing learning over bouncing into software and shiny equipment is the better decision for the next few years.

Combining Yoozer and avaris's posts, it seems like I should really get myself involved in some piano or guitar lessons around my area, or both, as well as picking up lots of books about music theory at the library, and whatever those might lead me into.

I'll also have to give that graph paper exercise many serious attempts as well.

My only question is in regards to this:

A good song will sound good when it's just played on guitar or piano;

Kind of a wierd question, but I guess I don't really understand what you mean by "song." I assume it means that every element/instrument of a song should sound good when played on a guitar or piano?