*NO* Sonic & Knuckles + Sonic the Hedgehog 3 'Icy Azure'

[Palpable]

Contact Information

Blue Magic

Damon Campbell

bluemagic1984@hotmail.com

http://www.angelfire.com/blues2/bluemagic/

User ID: 4656 (i think)

Submission Information

Sonic The Hedgehog 3

Ice Cap Zone and Lava Reef Zone

Ok, I know I said I was not planning on submitting this in my WIP thread, but I figured, "what the hell, might as well give it a shot." So, here it is. I do realize that many of the samples I use in my mixes are not as great as the ones used by others, but I keep tweaking and using them to prove a point to some of the newer, aspiring remixers that come along. And that point is, "The sample quality does not matter, its how you use them." Even though I have pretty decent samples in my library, I rarely use them. Almost all of the samples I use are free.

Now, about the mix. This is in my usual "chill" style. I tried to make this mix without relying too heavily on the original songs, so you wont find alot of the original sources in there, yet you can tell that they are present. I'm sure thats gonna be a turn-off to some, but this is how I wanted it to sound. Not trying to be an ass, but I hope you all understand what I mean.

The mix is posted up on my site.

Thanks to all of you, and enjoy.

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[DarkeSword]

To be honest, if you didn't tell me this was a Sonic mix, I wouldn't even know, except for that bit that sounds kind of like Ice Cap Zone. This is just way too original to qualify as a remix. It sounds like something someone would write for a show about Sonic where they couldn't get the permission to use the original music from the game, so they needed a soundalike.

Maybe another judge can hear more source? I'm at a loss here.

NO

[DragonAvenger]

Shariq's pretty much right about this. I can hear where you are using source, or hinting at the source, but it's just way to subtle for me to call this a remix. The source stuff, however it is arranged, needs more prominence.

NO

EDIT: I looked over Larry's stuff, and I can hear the things he mentioned. I will note that I do not know Sonic music, so I did not hear the Lava Reef 2 references until after he pointed out. I do have to say that my vote will still stand as a no. The balance between source and original is still not enough for me in that you have to fight to hear it most of the mix, and added to that the various production issues that Zircon and Larry mentioned, I don't think it's where it needs to be.

NO (resubmit)

[Liontamer]

[swoops in for the save]

Damon set himself up (and did himself a disservice) by saying, "I tried to make this mix without relying too heavily on the original songs, so you won't find alot of the original sources in there, yet you can tell that they are present." Shariq & Deia, y'all certainly took THAT and ran with it.

He also messed himself up by subbing this as a Sonic 3 mix, when the majority of it is Sonic & Knuckles. So if this passes, I'll be classifying it as S&K. Damon, your lack of clarity in subbing this mix nearly botched this.

I'm assuming the other Js aren't as familiar with the Lava Reef themes, either one or both. That said, y'all need to revote. The only thing subtle about this mix is the volume and mood, NOT the source usage.

IceCap Zone: Act 1:

Lava Reef Zone: Act 1:

Lava Reef Zone: Act 2:

:00-:19 - Pretty obvious IceCap melodic arrangement to open things up.

:19-:39 - The arranged IceCap melody continued to be used in the background, but was positioned too far back to be heard well. It practically doesn't count.

:40-45, :50-:55 - Lava Reef 1 chorus is used in those sections.

1:00-1:20 - Back to the arranged IceCap melody on strings. The sequencing/attacks of the strings sounded extremely rigid and fake. You should really fix that, Damon. String sequencing continues to be a weak point; round out your game.

1:20-1:50, 1:55-2:00 - The IceCap string melody from 1:00 continued in the background quietly, but easily audible.

1:40-2:22 - The glassy Lava Reef 2 melody is quietly in the foreground, continuing on top until 2:20, interacting with both the arranged IceCap stuff, and some wholly original writing.

2:20-2:40 - Arranged Lava Reef 2 countermelody on strings.

2:40-3:00 - Arranged Lava Reef 2 melody on strings & glassy lead, with the strings doing some occasional original writing.

2:59-3:20 - Lava Reef 2 melody glassy lead on top of original writing.

3:20-3:40 - Lava Reef 2 countermelody on plucked strings, follow by a wholly original close.

You know how I feel about your string work, Damon, you really need to iron out the kinks, as it holds your work back. That said, they didn't hugely dent this otherwise creative, laid-back arrangement. Great work on this, with some absolutely excellent weaving and interplay of the various themes.

Sometimes the other judges get wax in their ears and foul up a call. I've certainly done it and had the backup of my fellow Js to point out what I'm missing and set things straight. Once everyone's on the same page, this should pass without a problem.

YES

[DarkeSword]

Excuse me, but this is not a case of "wax ears," and I'm certainly very familiar with the Lava Reef themes, having played Sonic & Knuckles extensively during my childhood, and having remixed Act 2 myself. This piece goes too far in its interpretation; the melodies are altered to the point where they are sound-alikes with similar rhythms, specifically Ice Cap Zone. This piece also focuses on original melodies more than source tunes, with a lot of original writing, using heavily interpreted source tunes as backing.

My vote stands.

[Liontamer]

Excuse me, but this is not a case of "wax ears," and I'm certainly very familiar with the Lava Reef themes, having played Sonic & Knuckles extensively during my childhood, and having remixed Act 2 myself. This piece goes too far in its interpretation; the melodies are altered to the point where they are sound-alikes with similar rhythms, specifically Ice Cap Zone. This piece also focuses on original melodies more than source tunes, with a lot of original writing, using heavily interpreted source tunes as backing.

My vote stands.

Hahah! My fault for forgetting "Angel." Otherwise, I couldn't disagree with you more. The source tunes are not "heavily interpreted" to the point of unrecognizability OR being marginalized in this track. The source tunes are in play at practically every point in the arrangement. You're arguing that the songs are changed like someone keeping the rhythms but altering the notes to escape copyright, such as someone altering the Jeopardy theme in a car commercial. I'm aware of that, and understand your soundalike POV, I just don't agree with you. Looks like your "soundalike" is my "arrangement and interpretation." We'll let the panel fight it out.

But, hell, let your vote stand. And while you're at it, you can take back your YES vote on http://ocremix.org/remix/OCR01342/ on the same grounds.

[zircon]

Conceptually, I really like this arrangement. There are some very creative ideas here, and I think you really intertwined the sources well. That being said, I do have a problem with the mixing. The lead at 2:20 is too loud, while the bell lead panned to the left at many points in the song is way too quiet and often times the string harmonies (which are playing the source) are too far back as well. Try to pick a single focal element at a time and have everything else supporting that. For example, at 2:45, there are a bunch of different instruments all at roughly the same volume competing for attention, but none of them really sound like a lead instrument in terms of what they're playing.

Besides the mixing, the production is solid aside from the strings, which are really weak as Larry pointed out. Ask for someone's help with those!

So, the thing is, I do hear most of the source usage here (thanks, Larry) but to me the mixing is seriously obscuring it in a number of spots, such as 0:19 (bells), 1:20 (strings), 1:40 (bells), 2:20 (strings, or more accurately, the plucked lead is really loud) etc. As a result, there are some issues with there being no focal elements at a few points, such as at 1:20. It just sounds like a bunch of instruments playing original notes with no direction, and a little bit of source usage in the background.

I think my issues can be fixed purely with some mixing changes but you might also tweak the part writing. For example, most of your original material is wholly original and in the foreground while source usage is in the background. However, you could also tweak your part writing instead or in addition, as most of your original material is 100% original and doesn't really reference the sources at all. Why not have that plucked lead do a little Ice Cap quote here or there somewhere between 2:20 to 3:00? There's room for it.

Short version: great arrangement obscured somewhat by mixing the source elements very quietly, also the original parts could connect with the source a tiny bit more, strings are very weak. Fix some of that, resub and you're good to go.

NO, resub

[Liontamer]

It didn't bother me enough to even take issue with it, but on reading zircon's vote, I'll co-sign with him on the production/balance causing areas that arguably made the arrangement seemed aimless/unfocused. Again though, I didn't think those choices negatively affected the track enough for me to go NO. I thought it was a case where there was enough going on that worked, and that won out over what didn't work.

[OceansAndrew]

I gotta go with the majority here, I am hearing early references to ice cap and lava reef, but beyond that, it takes a pretty big stretch to get the references. Production in the strings is weak, as mentioned, and the acoustic guitar sample is way loud.

I dig the feel of this one, but the lack of source, production and mixing issues, and generally aimless arrangement aren't doing it for me. Sorry.

No

[Palpable]

Gonna co-sign with Andy on this one. Very nice arrangement, and the source is there nearly the entire time but is obscured by the uneven mixing. I think enough of it does poke out but the mixing problems are pretty severe. The plucked guitar sound, the EP - too loud. It hurts the production, it hurts the connection to the source. I was gonna call this a conditional because the mixing is literally the only thing I think needs to be changed about this, but with so many NO votes that can't hear the source, maybe it's best to let Damon do another pass on this entirely.

NO (resubmit)