Banjo-Kazooie "The Beauty Machine" (Gruntilda's Lair theme remix) (UPDATED!)

[The Radical Sifu]

Hi everyone! Back again with attempt number 3

This time, it's the Grunty's Lair theme from Banjo-Kazooie (also containing bits of Klungo's Theme from Banjo-Tooie, and the final boss music and Bridge To Grunty's Lair theme from B-K as well). I've been working on it for so long that I've lost all objectivity, so some feedback would be nice. Does anybody think it's got promise?

DECEMBER 23RD UPDATE: http://chaffcitycomic.com/trs/The_Radical_Sifu_-_The_Beauty_Machine_%28Banjo-Kazooie_WIP_2%29.mp3 This still isn't very good, but I don't know why. Would very much appreciate pointers. (I've played with the mixing a LOT. Don't know what y'all will make of it now).

Original source tune:

Responding to criticism of past mixes that my arrangements have been too faithful to the source, I've tried to be more creative this time. Don't know if I'm anywhere near fulfilling OCR's demands, though.

Above all I hope you enjoy it and PLEASE CRITIQUE. I want to improve on this. Me and this game go waaaay back, and if I'm going to make a submission, I want this to be it. Thank you!

[ncocs]

I decided I'd actually use the "list" that was intended for use on the forum. If it has a * in the box, it's considered checked.

ARRANGEMENT / INTERPRETATION

[ ] Too conservative - sticks too close to the source

[*] Too liberal - not enough connections to the source (too much original writing)

PRODUCTION

[*] Too loud

[*] Generic/cliche sound choices

[*] Overcompressed (pumping/no dynamics)

[*] Barely any panning effects

STRUCTURE

[*] Not enough changes in sounds (eg. static texture, not dynamic enough)

[*] Abrupt ending

PERSONAL COMMENTS

Ok, so I love this mix. A lot. But, there are the issues I listed above. Keep at it. I'll be following this one.

[The Radical Sifu]

Yeah, it probably is too loud and overcompressed, and I suck at writing endings. Good calls on those. I'll work on that.

Disagree strongly about the arrangement being too liberal, though. I've played around with it and had some fun, but it's Banjo all the way through.

[The Radical Sifu]

I realise the liberalism of the remix may be hard to judge without an intimate knowledge of the games and tracks remixed herein, so here's a breakdown of the mix:

0:05 - 0:23: The Bridge To Grunty's Lair theme, done pretty faithfully.

0:23 - 1:12: transitions into the chord progression from the Lair theme proper. Picks up the melody midway through, and riffs around it but doesn't stray too far.

1:12 - 1:31: An eight-bar solo built around the Lair theme chord progression. This is the only completely original melody found in this mix.

1:31 - 1:51: This is Klungo's theme from Banjo-Tooie, slowed wayyy down just to be different. Again, I've riffed around it and embellished it.

1:51 - 2:10: Joined by a countermelody that is mostly original, but informed by the Lair theme motif.

2:10 - 2:29: Part of the chord progression from the Lair theme, drama'd up.

2:29 - 2:39: This is my version of the intro from the Lair theme

2:39 - end: This last bit is taken from the Final Boss Battle music and riffed around with but still very recognisable to any Banjo fan.

Hope that helps

[RDX]

I'm in love. Though I'm slightly biased because of this

Me and this game go waaaay back

I don't think it's all too liberal though. I'll let the pros give you real constructive criticism, but I just wanna make it known that this definitely has promise (In my mind).

[The Radical Sifu]

Thank you

[ncocs]

I realise the liberalism of the remix may be hard to judge without an intimate knowledge of the games and tracks remixed herein, so here's a breakdown of the mix:

0:05 - 0:23: The Bridge To Grunty's Lair theme, done pretty faithfully.

0:23 - 1:12: transitions into the chord progression from the Lair theme proper. Picks up the melody midway through, and riffs around it but doesn't stray too far.

1:12 - 1:31: An eight-bar solo built around the Lair theme chord progression. This is the only completely original melody found in this mix.

1:31 - 1:51: This is Klungo's theme from Banjo-Tooie, slowed wayyy down just to be different. Again, I've riffed around it and embellished it.

1:51 - 2:10: Joined by a countermelody that is mostly original, but informed by the Lair theme motif.

2:10 - 2:29: Part of the chord progression from the Lair theme, drama'd up.

2:29 - 2:39: This is my version of the intro from the Lair theme

2:39 - end: This last bit is taken from the Final Boss Battle music and riffed around with but still very recognisable to any Banjo fan.

Hope that helps

Oh my jello, yes that helped! I can hear every theme now. So, let's redo my list, shall we?

ARRANGEMENT / INTERPRETATION

[*] Too conservative - sticks too close to the source

PRODUCTION

[*] Too loud

[*] Generic/cliche sound choices

[*] Overcompressed (pumping/no dynamics)

[*] Barely any panning effects

STRUCTURE

[*] Not enough changes in sounds (eg. static texture, not dynamic enough)

[*] Abrupt ending

[The Radical Sifu]

So it's too liberal until I point out all the source references, and now it's too conservative? Are you making this up as you go along? I'm pretty happy with my arrangement this time, I can't see how this is any more or less conservative than every other OC Remix ever.

Any comments on the production, guys?? I have a couple of issues myself with a couple of things (especially the bass in a few places). I'd be interested to hear what y'all have to say.

[BlackPanther]

I always look forward to hearin your stuff I'll listen to it in a sec.

P.S. You should continue working on the Frantic Factor remix, that was stellar I though xD.

[ncocs]

So it's too liberal until I point out all the source references, and now it's too conservative? Are you making this up as you go along? I'm pretty happy with my arrangement this time, I can't see how this is any more or less conservative than every other OC Remix ever.

Any comments on the production, guys?? I have a couple of issues myself with a couple of things (especially the bass in a few places). I'd be interested to hear what y'all have to say.

I meant it like, at first, I didn't recognize the themes, so I thought that most of it was composed. But once you pointed them out, I saw that there really wasn't much composed at all. So now I think it's conservative. Add some more of your own, and it'll be up to OCR's standards.

[The Radical Sifu]

Yeah, but the point I'm making is that if you didn't recognise all the Banjo themes until I told you they were there, that to my mind indicates that I've arranged them in a sufficently interesting way. Only the intro, based on Bridge To Grunty's Lair, is used almost verbatim from the games. Absolutely everything else has been tweaked, embellished, re-written and played around with. Like I said, I'm happy with my arrangement (rubbish ending notwithstanding).

@BlackPanther: Looking forward to your feedback

[Chris ~ Amaterasu]

I'm not really versed with the style but I enjoyed listening to it, interesting take on the banjo tunes =)

[Capt. Stupidity]

The arrangement is a little too liberal for my liking, but that's just personal opinion.

Production

It is too loud. The lead often drowns out the background instruments. Try to get it too blend with the other synths, but still have the prominence. It's sometimes hard to get just right, but it makes a mix so much better.

Your synths are too generic and aren't humanized at all. Mess around with some filters and the velocity. Also throw in some panning effects to give the mix a more dynamic feel to it.

You have a good source to work with and you have done well in your arrangement. Work on the production side of it and also the structure. I would change up the synths once or twice so that you don't have that generic feel to it.

[DarkSim]

Hey Sifu, good to see new stuff from you! Just want to publicly echo what BlackPanther said about your Frantic Factory mix as well in case you want to go back and polish it off. Do it

Moving on to this mix, I'm going to say right off the bat that I love the arrangement, and don't think you should get bogged down with changing that yet, if at all. It's a pretty short and repetitive source but your mix doesn't sound repetitive at all, so nice job on that. It does bear a more-than-passing resemblance to your aforementioned Frantic Factory mix, style-wise, what with the industrial sounding synths and beat, but that's no bad thing.

There are some level issues within the mix that need fixing first, as others have detailed before me. I'd perhaps like the main theme to be made just a little more obvious through the mixing, if not the arrangement. Overall loudness is an issue, I'd perhaps like to hear more of a crescendo towards the end, as if Banjo is reaching the upper echelons of Grunty's castle before the final showdown on the ramparts. Finish off with a Jinjonator smash to the face (ears)? Just throwing that out there

Looking forward to hearing the next version, I'll definitely be watching out for it.

[ectogemia]

I'm loving that chippy lead synth near the beginning. As a newb myself, could you maybe throw some insider info my way? How'd you make it?

The volume and frequency balance sound fantastic to me. I like the bridge with the choir pad a lot. It builds the tension quite well to the filter swept part at about 2:30, but I think you could build some more tension and tug at the listener a little harder at the transition between these two parts. As it is, you have the chord progression ending on the leading tone -- great, this adds tons of tension. The only other suspenseful element is the crash symbol bridging the two parts. I think you could do a little more here to really shock the listener and make the transition a little more "harsh", but in a good way. Again, though, it's fine as it is, but I think it could use some more juice.

Overall, I like this! I love the source too; god, that song has been stuck in my head for over a decade. I don't think it's quite at OCR acceptance level, but I don't see any reason why it couldn't get there with some lengthening and a bit more pizazz tossed in the mix.

[The Radical Sifu]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I'm re-doing the mixing and working on it, I should be back with a new version in a week or two.

Btw BlackPanther... this is the longest 'sec' in the history of the universe

[BlackPanther]

Lmao! I'm really sorry dude. My internets off for the time being till I pay it. I'm at school right now so I wouldn't have an accurate listen. I will say that it was an enjoyable listen for sure. When my internets back on I'll give it a productive listen I promises xD.

[The Radical Sifu]

http://chaffcitycomic.com/trs/The_Radical_Sifu_-_The_Beauty_Machine_%28Banjo-Kazooie_WIP_2%29.mp3 This still isn't very good, but I don't know why. Would very much appreciate pointers. (I've played with the mixing a LOT. Don't know what y'all will make of it now).

Re-reading over this thread I forgot to address a couple of the points made such as humanising the synths and putting a proper ending on it. I guess those points still stand