League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!

[Bleck]

stop playing as teemo

[zircon]

Tried my hand at designing a champion.

http://www.reddit.com/r/LoLChampConcepts/comments/pnv0s/fccc_jade_the_luminous_sprite_ap_gankersupport/

Let me know what you think. I think it is a fairly unique concept that would be fun to play without breaking any of Riot's rules, while also not falling into the traditional 'hard support' or 'hard AP carry' roles.

[prophetik music]

stop playing as teemo

*i* would never be caught dead playing him, as he drives me nuts. with him on my team, however, he's bloody awesome! plus he gets magical healing thanks to spellvamp and morons running into his mushrooms.

[The Author]

Nautilus is a blast. More of a dpsy tank than a tanky dps but I like him. If leona is the best initiator (and you know this is true) he migh as well be the best closer. I know tagging ahri with his ult means her running away is in vain and thats just funny. Thinking of playing him in a grab teamwith skarner and blitzcrank... Maybe even ahri with her charm... Would need a fifth grabber though.

[prophetik music]

Nautilus is a blast. More of a dpsy tank than a tanky dps but I like him. If leona is the best initiator (and you know this is true) he migh as well be the best closer. I know tagging ahri with his ult means her running away is in vain and thats just funny. Thinking of playing him in a grab teamwith skarner and blitzcrank... Maybe even ahri with her charm... Would need a fifth grabber though.

i compare him to a bruiser version of malphite and mummy, between the ult, the toss, and the AoE damage on attack.

i've building him AD, with ninja tabi, philo/HoG, and manamune, and either aegis, wriggles, sheen, or mallet based on how the game is going and what we need. he's just so fun, and i'm so glad i got him day one as i'll be playing him a lot over the next few weeks before he gets nerfed.

honestly, though, while he deals a lot of ad, his AS is pretty slow, and he's not that quick as it is. if he gets nerfed, i'm sure it'll be on his cooldowns, since after he gets some CD he's skarner-esque in his spamming.

edit: also, leona isn't the best initiator, because it's so easy for her to miss and then be worthless. malph is the best team initiation, as his ult is an AoE knockup/stun and then he can prevent people from leaving quick with his hubcap. rammus is the best gank initiator, as flash/ball is absurdly difficult to avoid, and the taunt is just sooooo good.

Edited February 15, 2012 by prophetik music

[eternal Zero]

Play a game with Nautilus then check damage done. He's about 80% magic damage and his AP ratios are solid. He also does really low DPS but high burst. If you're building Warmogs/Atmas or AD at all you're doing it all wrong. He's a more offensive oriented Singed. Build him the same way and you'll do fine. Two gold items (Philo/HoG) into two dmg items (RoA and Abyssal) into FoN, Shurelya's, etc. I won a 4v5 yesterday because I could 1v5 the enemy team. I had 4k health and actually saw constant +25 green numbers flying because of my Force of Nature. He either jungles similarly to Sejuani or solo tops like Singed. And builds should reflect accordingly. My runes are just like Singed with Mpen reds, Mana/5 yellows, MR blues, and Movespeed quints. Masteries are identical to Singed: 0 21 9; but instead of getting mana regen in utility I just get even more movespeed cause Nautilus has no mana issues once you have a philo.

I know Ziggs had major issues and weaknesses but Nautilus' aren't as clear cut. He's weak early and only shines in the lategame if you're super farmed AND super fed. I expect him to get nerfed unfortunately. He's not like the past few where Riot either held back too much (Viktor) or did it just right (Ziggs, Sejuani).

Also here are the only games of Nautilus I played yesterday. The game highlighted is the one I already mentioned. All builds are nearly identical though the very first game I tried Rylai's over Abyssal which isn't good cause you don't cast often enough. And the game I lost other lanes were feeding really badly so I was going for a quick Frozen Heart to try and salvage it. Really good item on him but he's actually more of a burst character than a DPS character so you need your team to supplement a LOT of damage for you in team fights.

Edited February 15, 2012 by eternal Zero

[The Author]

I almost want to try lichbane, zohnya, shurelya, abyssal scepter, ninja tabi and force of nature on him. It would be expensive butvwith his cd lichbane would work I think.

[Dexie]

AP Shen is fun.

[prophetik music]

Play a game with Nautilus then check damage done. He's about 80% magic damage and his AP ratios are solid. He also does really low DPS but high burst. If you're building Warmogs/Atmas or AD at all you're doing it all wrong. He's a more offensive oriented Singed. Build him the same way and you'll do fine. Two gold items (Philo/HoG) into two dmg items (RoA and Abyssal) into FoN, Shurelya's, etc. I won a 4v5 yesterday because I could 1v5 the enemy team. I had 4k health and actually saw constant +25 green numbers flying because of my Force of Nature. He either jungles similarly to Sejuani or solo tops like Singed. And builds should reflect accordingly. My runes are just like Singed with Mpen reds, Mana/5 yellows, MR blues, and Movespeed quints. Masteries are identical to Singed: 0 21 9; but instead of getting mana regen in utility I just get even more movespeed cause Nautilus has no mana issues once you have a philo.

I know Ziggs had major issues and weaknesses but Nautilus' aren't as clear cut. He's weak early and only shines in the lategame if you're super farmed AND super fed. I expect him to get nerfed unfortunately. He's not like the past few where Riot either held back too much (Viktor) or did it just right (Ziggs, Sejuani).

Also here are the only games of Nautilus I played yesterday. The game highlighted is the one I already mentioned. All builds are nearly identical though the very first game I tried Rylai's over Abyssal which isn't good cause you don't cast often enough. And the game I lost other lanes were feeding really badly so I was going for a quick Frozen Heart to try and salvage it. Really good item on him but he's actually more of a burst character than a DPS character so you need your team to supplement a LOT of damage for you in team fights.

with the way that i was building him, i did roughly 60% AD, with my base AD being around 200 after manamune and phage. the bonuses for his shield and passive were just applied on top of that, so while i didn't deal tons of damage, i was very disruptive and wasn't getting melted super-fast like other bruisers sometimes can be once focused. he also does a lot of burst either way - his e and ult really do a lot of damage even with no bonuses on them, and i'm sure it's absurd once you get him built AP.

i was going to try building him AP tonight to try him out in both directions. i like that he can be build both ways - like, skarner can go in either direction, although he's not as good as an AP IMO than he is AD - and is still viable. i'll fotz with a pissed-off-singed build tonight on him and see how i do.

do you think that CDR on him would be good? either through cdr boots, frozen mallet, or other options? also, would lich bane be a viable replacement for abyssal or (sacrificing speed) shurelya's?

[Bleck]

new shen is overpowered

feint + ki strike is just a little too good I think

[prophetik music]

new shen is overpowered

feint + ki strike is just a little too good I think

shen was a 0-kill character most of the time before the patch. now he gets a few kills and can solo a lane without just getting pooped on. this is a nice change.

[Bleck]

every time someone says this game is balanced I laugh and point at sion

[eternal Zero]

do you think that CDR on him would be good? either through cdr boots, frozen mallet, or other options? also, would lich bane be a viable replacement for abyssal or (sacrificing speed) shurelya's?

Well there's the issue. If you're building someone with AD-based items and you're doing barely more than half AD by game's end then the character's kit just isn't meant for it. It's like building Shyvanna as an AD. She'll still do almost all magic damage early game and then lategame when you finally get your items all your items you do enough AD to balance it out. He's a burst AP tank. He's not a part of the tanky dps archetype thank God. If you used the money you make to actually make his early/mid game damage better you'll do better overall instead of essentially wasting the time it takes to build a tear (doesn't need the mana, doesn't need the mana regen) to building a phage (doesn't need the slow cause he's got plenty, doesn't need the damage because his shield ability scales off AP) and phage barely gives you HP compared to what else you could be building. This also assumes you're taking too much farm away from your proper carries because you're not getting any gold items nor are you likely to win against a good top lane that's anywhere near aggressive because you don't have a catalyst. This is also why a Lichbane won't work. The only item that really helps is the Blasting Rod. The Sheen will add some damage but it will generally be insignificant because typical confrontations will involve you using all three of your non-ult actives in rapid succession giving you a single Sheen/Lich proc which won't do all that much because you don't have good AD growth nor are you amassing AP.

Also CDR won't help really. His CDs are just too long and you'll just have to adjust your own play to deal with that. Lichbane is too expensive for not actually building AP. Abyssal gives a useful aura, is still defensively oriented, and gives good AP. RoA is the same way except it continues to grow and gives everything a tank wants plus some solid AP. He's a tank so build him like one. If the item isn't giving you significant bonuses to being tanky then you're trying to make him a character he's not and you might as well play someone else.

I'm not saying he can't be built that way and I do understand the want to try and make a hero something their not because it's cool or novel or throws the enemy off but in the end there's a right way to do things and then there's the best way to do things.

Also new Shen is pretty good. I still haven't seen one really do amazing things yet but I do like how with his changes his jungle is insane. Choice everything. Doesn't matter what you run as long as you get a pull on blue. He'll succeed. So it makes him a very malleable 5th member pick in draft and allows him to fit many more nuances in his tank role.

[eternal Zero]

with the way that i was building him, i did roughly 60% AD

Also I decided to spot check you because I didn't believe he could output that percentage of damage with your proposed AD build. I was right.

In your Co-Op vs AI game: 31% AD

In your other four 4 normal games: 29%, 25%, 33%, 30% AD.

This is with a typical tank build and two AD items (Manamune and Trinity Force). And you barely average a third of your damage as AD. Also both those items, as mentioned, give you little to no bonuses to your tanking ability.

And looking at just raw numbers and not percentages I output almost identical (if not more) amounts of physical damage with my burst AP tank build.

[The Author]

But on an AP build, is lichbane viable?

I mean, his cooldowns are a bit prohibitive, but it would help with the burst damage aspect.

[eternal Zero]

Nope. You don't build enough AP. Also you tend to burst all three non-ult actives at once so you don't actually get a lot of Lich procs.

[Dexie]

Manamune's really not that great, except on Urgot and sometimes Corki.

Especially since Naut really doesn't have anything he can spam to help get extra mana on it up.

[Bleck]

Manamune's really not that great, except on Urgot and sometimes Corki.

[prophetik music]

blitz, yorick, etc.

league of mathematicians has convinced me. i'll focus on ap tonight and see what happens.

[Dexie]

Who's that? Some new champion or something?

Seriously though, I forgot about Yorick completely because I never see anyone play him.

[zircon]

every time someone says this game is balanced I laugh and point at sion

Haha, how is Sion overpowered? Both AD and AP Sion are pretty much average. He is not hard to deal with. His stun is a pain, but it's single target and on a fairly long cooldown. Likewise with his shield. Once he blows that stuff, he's useless as AP Sion. Other AP champs like Ahri or even Veigar bring more reliable, regular burst and powerful disables. AD Sion is melee which already makes him a weak pick, and unlike powerful melees such as Gangplank and Tryndamere, he has no jump/dash or movement boost, no ranged attack or slow, low utility outside of the stun (which is neutralized by Banshees).

[eternal Zero]

So far my KA:D ratio with Nautilus in ranked over 3 games is 56:1. I am going to be so sad when he gets the treatment.

[zircon]

Also, if we can run a 5man at some point, I really want to try a non-traditional meta strategy... I'm thinking:

* Strong, high-range AD top (Ashe, Cait, maybe Graves). Builds traditional AD. Uses escape/scouting abilities and wards to resist ganks and farm all day.

* Another ranged AD mid, who builds more sustain/tanky (though still with DPS)... builds items to keep sustain/farm in lane without being harassed out.

* Tanky sustain/counterjungler. Someone who can clear fast at high HP and give more map control. Udyr, Shyvana, Trundle, maybe Lee/Skarner because they're so good.

* Two APs bot that have very powerful lane control and can generally deny the enemy AD farm through their high harass. These guys do NOT need to necessarily get farmed themselves and should focus on harass/kills while staying safe. Karthus, Cass, Brand, Ahri, Annie, Kennen, Zilean all possibilities. All of these guys have escapes/disables except Cass, but Cass so good.

A HIGH-range AD top should be able to stay pretty safe while passively farming and harassing periodically with poke abilities and autos. The mid AD can more actively farm and harass the enemy AP with superior health and resistances. Bottom lane shoots to dominate, jungler helps maintain map control.

My tanky AD mid would probably build something like Merc Treads, Wit's End/Hexdrinker, Wriggles and then proceed to Bloodthirster/IE and Banshee's Veil. They would not have as high damage output as the top AD but should be able to shred the enemy mid while also staying pretty safe and having way better objective control than a mid would normally have.

Thoughts? Possible downsides:

* APs don't get farmed/leveled as much. Is this a problem? Maybe, but in theory they will be really destroying bottom lane, effectively making at least one person on the enemy team useless (while the APs, even with lower levels/farm, will still be good.)

* No bruiser/tanky DPS at top. The pseudo-tanky AD mid might make up for it, plus there's a tanky jungler. Still.. could be tough.

* No traditional hard support like Soraka, Sona, Taric, Alistar. Instead, support items may have to be distributed throughout team, such as Aegis on the jungler, Will of the Ancients on an AP, Soul Shroud on the other AP...

Edited February 16, 2012 by zircon

[prophetik music]

Haha, how is Sion overpowered? Both AD and AP Sion are pretty much average. He is not hard to deal with. His stun is a pain, but it's single target and on a fairly long cooldown. Likewise with his shield. Once he blows that stuff, he's useless as AP Sion. Other AP champs like Ahri or even Veigar bring more reliable, regular burst and powerful disables. AD Sion is melee which already makes him a weak pick, and unlike powerful melees such as Gangplank and Tryndamere, he has no jump/dash or movement boost, no ranged attack or slow, low utility outside of the stun (which is neutralized by Banshees).

ad sion can tank an entire team with his ult and some lifesteal by 3/4 of the way through the game, and his ult (50% lifesteal to the entire team) is absurd with as few as one other melee character on the team. ap sion can solo almost anyone because his stun's a 3s that's up every 8 or 9 seconds.

he's also impossible to keep down - like gragas, in a long game he *always* gets farmed, and you can never count him out as a result.

[zircon]

All you have to do is stun, slow or exhaust him. He's VERY easy to keep down. He has no range and no gap closer aside from the one stun. Compare to someone like Irelia that can constantly bladesurge in your face, slow/stun you repeatedly and poke you with a ranged ult (not to mention her CC reduction.) Sion has garbage base attack speed too so if his ult is down, he's molasses. Tryndamere is way better because he can also tank, but he can slow the entire enemy team, close the gap or escape with his spin (for lots of extra damage) massive built-in crit and reliable self-healing that doesn't require you to be auto attacking. I've never played against a good AD sion.

AP Sion was actually on the verge of being OP, which is why he got nerfed, but even then... not really. Two damage spells, both on fairly long cooldowns, only one of which is AOE.