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ziggs is straightforward but he's super fun

Also zircon you've played all of like 3 games of Dota 2 (Bot games too) so I don't think you're exactly in the best position to be making calls on which game has the more exciting laning phase.

maybe zircon found out very quickly like I did that the laning phase in dota 2 is basically 'stand at your tower until razor decides it's time for you to not be alive anymore'

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we'll add you - we usually do an ARAM or two every night.

maybe zircon found out very quickly like I did that the laning phase in dota 2 is basically 'stand at your tower until razor decides it's time for you to not be alive anymore'

Yeah I can't believe they put in such an overpowered hero like Razor. :roll:

I honestly don't even get the complaint here, are you saying that it's unfair that a random pubstar outlaned you when he probably put way more time into learning the game than you have?

Edited by Tensei
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I'm not actually saying razor is overpowered (also it was a bot game~)

I find that whereas in lol I can actually perceive a champ attacking me (oh shit, vayne is autoattacking me and sona is poking away with spells) and it takes a reasonable amount of time for me to die, dota 2 is basically welp you took like one step into "too far" and now all of your health is basically gone (holy fuck razor just turned into one million lightning bolts and did three billion damage to me)

I don't know enough about dota 2 to say who is and who is not overpowered, of course, but it does seem to me like there are quite a few spellcasters who can outright murder me really early with little to no effort, no matter who I'm playing as

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and then you learn how to deal with them.

focus on playing those imba spellcasters in real games. experience how they're mostly not imba. they will only be imba in certain constellations against certain other lineups. heroes are imba if you don't have an antidote. you've lost the metagame.

if you're prone to whining over unfair situations, then dota is the wrong game.

in all fairness, i whine a lot too. for example, anti-mage is borderline imba, simply because he's such a fucking hassle to shut down. he also forces specific counterpicks.

these games never are perfectly balanced. each flavor of the month pick stirs up new balancing questions, and it becomes increasingly hard to see through the noise.

on the other hand, the modular nature of the game is in itself sort of a self-regulatory balancing mechanism. any strat will result in the development of counter-strats. it's essentially an endlessly evolving cycle of rock paper scissors (broadly guided and emphasized by patches of course).

anyway, the reason these seemingly uber heroes stay that way is that most people have learned to deal with them and moved on.

said heroes can still get some very easy kills in certain situations. in the meantime though, players have learned to methodically avoid those situations, be it through picks or playstyle.

the hero is accordingly accepted as being generally balanced. occasionally a noob stops by and cries. it's to be expected.

in the end, all i can say is: dota makes more and more sense the more you play it. doesn't mean you have to. it's a huge timesink, and if you don't enjoy it (you don't seem to so far) then what's the point.

just be aware that there are many people that tremendously enjoy the game just for what it is. you don't have to be an elitist douchebag with a neurotic degree of conservatism to really like dota. most people can enjoy it if they're willing to wrap their head around it.

it only gets better. ymmv.

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ziggs is straightforward but he's super fun

Ziggs is pretty much the greatest champion ever and I plan on playing the hell out of him until the inevitable nerfs.

MEGA.

INFERNO.

BOMB.

EDIT: Oh man, this game we have Ziggs, Corki, and Heimer all on the same team. Wish we had Rumble too. Team Science Yordle go!

Edited by Dexie
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Also zircon you've played all of like 3 games of Dota 2 (Bot games too) so I don't think you're exactly in the best position to be making calls on which game has the more exciting laning phase. LoL does not have Smoke of Deceit for example, and unless the metagame has suddenly wildly changed since I stopped playing (which I doubt), it's still way more farm-centric.

LoL is more farm-centric but the rate of kills occurring is just as high if not higher than what I remember from HoN (which, as I understand it, is even faster than Dota2). The #1 thing that drives me crazy about Dota2 btw is just the ridiculously long animations. I can't stand how long it takes for attacks and spells to go off and I really don't want to spend months and months learning yet another full game's worth of animation times. With LoL, stuff happens more or less instantly. With HoN, the animations seemed very obvious and easy to see, whereas in Dota2, with heroes that are in some cases the same size or smaller than creeps it's just harder to see what's going on. Hate that shit. I'll take worse graphics any day of the weak if animations are fast and clear.

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I'm not actually saying razor is overpowered (also it was a bot game~)

I feel for you. Bots are OP.

I was playing lina and doing really well against bots. Got myself a blink dagger and started getting ROLLED. They could react faster to my presence than my animations could complete. Instagib. lol

I hear that anniebot is the similar in LoL.

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Dota 2 is by far superior to HoN in graphical readability. The reason you think HoN is better is because you've played that for hundreds of hours vs. like maybe 2-3 hours of Dota 2, so you can recognize every washed out graphical effect for what it is.

Obviously you aren't instantly going to be able to recognize everything that's going on in Dota 2, but it's WAY easier to get there than it was in HoN, which really has an unfortunate combination of gritty detailed textures and lots of bloom and particles flying around.

And regarding animations, it's a balance factor. Period. Don't fighting games have something similar where certain attacks may be very strong but have a significant upswing animation so they're easily punishable? Lina and Puck get shitty attack animations to prevent them from achieving dominant farm and becoming midgame carry powerhouses, Sniper and Razor get near-instant ones for exactly the opposite reason. How is having more variation between heroes a bad thing again?

Edited by Tensei
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Because the community is screaming about how OP he is, and Riot has a good habit of giving in to those yells about new champs and nerfing them?

maybe you haven't noticed but this happens for literally every champion. it's happened for every single one since i've been playing except for viktor. notable 'OP' champs include the not-yet-buffed wukong, volibear, leona, riven, shyvanna, fizz, the not-yet-buffed skarner, graves, ahri, talon, and xerath

the only legitimate claims of this group are graves and maybe ahri. people don't even play talon anymore. leona? other than free week i've literally never seen one past the week and a half after she got released (despite her being a wonderful champion). wukong and skarner were both terrible before their buffs. volibear was 'OP' for two days until people realized he wasn't all that good, and recently got a buff to compensate for it.

in conclusion: people bitching about 'OP-ness' within the first week or two are idiots purely based on the fact of ignorance as to how a character works or how to avoid/counter that particular character's strategy.

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People play Talon all the time. "not yet buffed skarner"? They just nerfed him. Shyvana has never been considered OP but is now a flavor of the month champ due to pros using her to counter-jungle from top. No one ever considered Volibear OP. Everyone recognized Leona has a really nice kit but actually whined about how underwhelming her numbers are.

I honestly have no idea where you're getting any of these "cries of OPness" from because you're absolutely wrong about over half of them.

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No I don't think Kitty actually reads posts or thinks before posting his/her-self

Skarner got a buff after release. I don't think he's so ridiculous.

Wukong got buffed and yes I agree he's ridiculous. Why do you think I play him so much?

Riven got a small buff after release and was recently nerfed.

Shyvanna was for all purposes unchanged. She's always been good just nobody played her.

Voli wasn't directly nerfed but they nerfed Warmog's in his stead. He was actually indeed OP in the right hands. You can take my word on that one.

As for Ziggs. I dunno. I think he'll get nerfed. Most people will try him once and then hate him because it does take a decent amount of skill and dexterity to hit all of his skill shots. His damage output is freaking nasty though. He's also got the best pokes in the game right now. The only reason I don't see a nerf coming is because they were very clear in their design for him in terms of weakness: no CC, long cooldowns, and all skill shots.

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People play Talon all the time. "not yet buffed skarner"? They just nerfed him. Shyvana has never been considered OP but is now a flavor of the month champ due to pros using her to counter-jungle from top. No one ever considered Volibear OP. Everyone recognized Leona has a really nice kit but actually whined about how underwhelming her numbers are.

I honestly have no idea where you're getting any of these "cries of OPness" from because you're absolutely wrong about over half of them.

use your brain. i was commenting on how the community thought all of those were op when just about none of them are even close, or were at the time.

why make a fool out of yourself i don't get it

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Everyone knows Evelynn is the most OP champion ever.

Thing is, she was for the longest time then nobody knew it while the entire community was demanding Evelynn buffs. That went on for about a year and a half (not sure of exact time but it was at least six months). Then for about three months she was awesome because people discovered new tech with her. Then she got nerfed but was still pretty good. Then she got nerfed again and now she's next to useless cause removing the stun from her invis was all she had going for her.

Edited by eternal Zero
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if you have a team of people who know how to work with an eve she'll still get you free kills, though it is just about required you bring exhaust. the thing being you will never find four other people who will cooperate with you.

over the summer when i bought her i would run train on games (admittedly normal) by staying in lane until i had enough for boots and a sheen, and then go get ganks with a mejaj. as long as you save yourself from dying which is very possible you can get pretty built.

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Apparently none of you read my post either. It's okay. We can all scream at each other in this thread. Haven't seen this much hostility on the OCR forums ever. But it's cool, you play League so it's bound to happen.

Also: Yes I did misread derrit's post. However you all jumping on me for it is really disappointing, especially since I play with a lot of you. This thread is just overly hostile to anyone stating their opinion.

Edited by kitty
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We can all scream at each other in this thread. Haven't seen this much hostility on the OCR forums ever.

This thread is just overly hostile to anyone stating their opinion.

[00:30] <Jeffeh> Bleck, you're just an asshole ok?

[00:30] <Jeffeh> Honestly I don't even know why you're a part of this community

[00:30] <Jeffeh> because

[00:30] <Jeffeh> you're the only one I've met in OCR

[00:30] <Jeffeh> who's such a giant dick

I can't stop laughing

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Apparently none of you read my post either. It's okay. We can all scream at each other in this thread. Haven't seen this much hostility on the OCR forums ever. But it's cool, you play League so it's bound to happen.

Also: Yes I did misread derrit's post. However you all jumping on me for it is really disappointing, especially since I play with a lot of you. This thread is just overly hostile to anyone stating their opinion.

not just the thread!

i played a five-man with miki zero tolerance. i was bot lane as ali with a level 9 ashe with zero runes. MZT was mid with bomberman, zircon was pigbitch jungling, and nasus top was wynks. we got *slaughtered* bot by swain and panth, since they just double-lockup and then panth eats you. it was, also, apparently my fault, since we never got any ganks ever even though they pushed like madmen. i was killed four times where i never got in front of the back end of our bush - swains root and panth's stun just beat the shit out of us no matter what we did. level 9 ashe was actually playing ok, but there's nothing you can do when they can harass so effectively. i wanted to apologize for that game, guys - after the first kill i should have danced in the fountain with how the game was going. with how every game with MZT goes. he is so mad all the time because i can't play OP carries like he does =) if i was amazing at ali (which i'm definitely not terrible), we still would have lost bot lane, no questions asked.

in other news, talon is broken as shit. he's so good, early, late, no matter what. i've played three games so far. one i got stuck against an ap teemo, and did ok until two people left, so then that game was over. my first game i had most kills by the surrender, and my last game i had ten kills and a 25m surrender. rake has to be one of the best abilities in the game (right up there with mummy tears and malz's shutdown ult and cass's ult) right now for the slow, the damage it does, and the cooldown. it's just so amazing to farm, to slow, to burst...he's so much fun. i've been playing him 21-0-9 with armor pen quints, armor yellows, mr/level blues, and ad reds, and it works out really nice. the extra armor and mr in lane means i don't really need to buy tanky items until i eventually get a frozen mallet, but i've had bloodthirster early in both of the good games i've had. having 150ad super early in the game, plus all that lifesteal, means you're guaranteed kills it seems. i wouldn't mind switching out blues, but i haven't found a better choice yet. mana/5 blues only give you 3.5/5, which really isn't much, and i don't have huge issues with his mana usage unless i'm spamming. maybe cooldown blues? but that's barely 10%, on a spamalot, so it's not as useful as on someone like fiddles who needs them to do damage. any ideas?

then MZT ragequit with about ten seconds left in the game.

Edited by prophetik music
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That wasn't a ragequit the internet died on me.

Also I wasn't being zero tolerance. You've been really sensitive for whatever reason when I play with you. The game just before I had the same affect and we lost all the same. Ask Bardic or Zircon. It's a loss and yes I pointed out things that could have gone better but not at any point was I anywhere near mad. Honestly think of the last time I outright yelled at someone. When I'm angry about DotA I rage and I rage hard. . For whatever reason you get very defeatist and negative and always think I'm blaming you. Chill out. It's just a game. I don't expect the best from anyone here cause nobody here is a professional.

Though if you really want to jab at me for only playing OP carries I want you to think back to all the times I go trolling with mid Heimer or AD carry Sona mid and do the same as I normally do.

Edited by eternal Zero
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[00:30] <Jeffeh> Bleck, you're just an asshole ok?

[00:30] <Jeffeh> Honestly I don't even know why you're a part of this community

[00:30] <Jeffeh> because

[00:30] <Jeffeh> you're the only one I've met in OCR

[00:30] <Jeffeh> who's such a giant dick

I can't stop laughing

i still <3 you bleck

edit: also kitty the reason we all snapped at you (or at least i did) was not because we're all huge dicks or even because we don't like you. its because you yourself were like 'check your facts bro' as if you were appalled at my ignorance. when in fact you actually just weren't paying attention

so don't get too bent out of shape about it just think for a few extra seconds next time and you'll be fine

Edited by The Derrit
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Prophet, you need to man up a bit more. I really doubt Zero was in the wrong here because I've played a lot of HoN and a bit of Dota 2 with him as well, and I know that if he rages, it's usually pretty damn justified. Not to mention he usually stays on the constructive side of criticism. :<

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