eternal Zero Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Very few AD mids will win against the standard AP choices. And they are, for the most part, melee. Riven, Talon, Gankplank would be the only three I'd consider. You need to be able to go burst for burst and harass just as well as the AP to keep up. None of the ranged ADs can do that until they're level 6 at which point the lane is lost cause mots AP champions are going to be on you from level 2 onwards. Also I'm not going to weigh in too hard on the Sion talk cause it honestly boils down to skill determining character efficiency. Sion isn't worth shit when people are good enough.Both AD and AP version rely on being ignored to be good. AP Sion loses more than half his damage if you break his shield. AD Sion can't keep his team alive if he's CC'd then killed. Sion is a one trick pony. Ignore him and you lose. Also I like how you mention Gragas as a lategame threat cause he's really not any threat at all except for level 6 when he has his ult out of nowhere. Though that again boils down to your skill against his because those non-ult barrels are slow and have a small range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 If you're playing Graves mid, what can a standard AP champ really do to you? Your auto harass and last hitting is way better, Q harass is 1050 range, use E to dash away from kill combos. Combine with tanky item build and I don't see how you can die. The few times I've been forced into mid as a ranged AD I've generally done well. Someone like Vayne who is squishy and has no range will get shat on, but those with 1k range pokes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal Zero Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Cass will out-dps you. Kass will burst you down on his tempo. Morde just laughs and wins. LeBlanc just walks up to you then bursts you. Ahri out pokes and wins when ults are up. You don't have the sustained mana regen to keep up with Heimer pressure. Ziggs has more range and more damage. Annie wins the same way. She has second longest range level 1 btw. You beat most decent Karthus. You lose to Kennen pretty handily. Talon, GP, and Riven win by default due to disables and damage and building a single armor item. There are no hills mid for poking and there isn't room to maneuver. Only mid ranged AD is Cait due to area denial but a single mistake will end you. It's a lot of work and risk for little to no gain. Also I know my post is mostly circumstantial and evidence based but if you like we could just run sets and test your idea. Cause of the 1v1 solo mid tourney I tested most if not every hero. Cait was the only one that showed promise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal Zero Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I will say that solo top AD is more likely to work if they're not running tops like Wukong, Singed or Nautilus. So I think for your strat keep the typical mid but run double tank disruptive bot. Something like Blitz Nautilus. Yeah it's risky but they don't need farm and good luck pushing or pressuring that pair on a tower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) "yeah sion is easy just stun him and he's nothing" Alright, so what if I'm solo-laning against Sion and I don't have a hard stun and/or I'm not running exhaust? I recently did this as Nautilus against a Sion that repeatedly walked into the turret to try and poke at me with autoattacks. I thought, okay, he's dumb, he's hitting me with autoattacks. I'll pull him and stun him under the tower. Every single time I did that, he stunned me and walked away. No big deal, I thought. I'm not dying, so what's the harm? So we're farming away for a good couple of minutes and around level 6 I think, okay. He's at 300 health and I'm at full health. If I can't bring him down with everything I have, something is wrong. So I pull him, stun him, hit him with Riptide and then hit him with my ult as he stuns me. The shield absorbed a big chunk of that, so now he's at 200 health. Okay, I think. There's no way he can outdamage me without his stun and with that little health while I'm at full and shielded. And then he turned on his ult. In the time it took for him to do 1200 damage to me, I couldn't kill him, despite him being at fucking 200 at the start of the fight. By the time I realized I was going to fucking die, I was down to about 300 and he was back up to at least 800; so I flash away towards my tower, but whoops, it doesn't matter because his stun is back up. He walks under the tower, hits me two more times and I die. He walks away from the tower without even taking damage because by then his shield was back up. So, yeah - maybe Nautilus damage is just too low, but I'm pretty sure Sion is bullshit. Maybe if I'm a farmed carry or something I can understand the whole 'just exhaust him and you'll do fine' bit, but I'm pretty sure in almost all cases that's bullshit. I can't fight him early on as anyone I play as (this isn't the only bad experience I've had against Sion), so he inevitably gets farmed, and I can't fight him later because whoops he has 150% lifesteal and three fucking Phantom Dancers. By all means, give me some more advice on how to deal with Sion, I really need it. But if your advice on how to play against anyone is just 'stun him and voila', seriously? Fuck off. Edited February 16, 2012 by Bleck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal Zero Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) How to lane Nautilus: only fight when your spells are up. Go in and burst then walk away. Only use ult to secure kills. Nautilus wins almost every matchup top if the opponent doesn't know to keep going after him after he's blown all his spells. You definitely have the advantage against Sion if you play passive aggressive patiently. Yeah blind pick benefits Sion but then you evaluate what you can do. If you have the tanky advantage you'll win over time. If you have the damage advantage you need to force him out of lane and if he's ap then you need to either back way off when his shield goes on or you burst it before he can pop it. Also if you're not building tenacity or Quicksilver Sash you really need to reevaluate the risk of his stun esp if he gives you trouble. Edited February 16, 2012 by eternal Zero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Haha, just played quite possibly the dumbest game ever. Enemy team was a solid comp of Ziggs, Cait, Soraka, Lee Sin and Gangplank. Good, right? Our team was Ashe solo bot (me), Lux/Trundle top, Nautilus jungle, Kassadin mid. We somehow rolled them absurdly. I ended up building Wriggle's, Youmuu's Ghostblade and Warmog's, along with the standard Infinity Edge. No idea how or why we won. I guess better ganks and better play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal Zero Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Never get Ghostblade on ranged AD. Waste of funds that could have been an Atma's in your case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 How to lane Nautilus: only fight when your spells are up. Go in and burst then walk away. Only use ult to secure kills. Nautilus wins almost every matchup top if the opponent doesn't know to keep going after him after he's blown all his spells. You definitely have the advantage against Sion if you play passive aggressive patiently.Yeah blind pick benefits Sion but then you evaluate what you can do. If you have the tanky advantage you'll win over time. If you have the damage advantage you need to force him out of lane and if he's ap then you need to either back way off when his shield goes on or you burst it before he can pop it. Also if you're not building tenacity or Quicksilver Sash you really need to reevaluate the risk of his stun esp if he gives you trouble. Alright, I'll keep this stuff in mind. Also, is there some trick to jungling as Nautilus? It feels like I'm always hovering around 100 health if I start with cloth/5pots if I start with E, and if I start with W I can't even kill blue. I'm running armorpen reds, flat armor yellows, mr/lvl blues and armor pen quints. Masteries are all in the defensive tree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexie Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Bleck, if Sion was that close to your tower for that long, your jungler should have been up there ganking the hell out of him. As far as jungling with Naut goes, I've done a couple custom test games, and magic pen runes seem to do better than armor pen. This is a pretty decent guide I've used for my testing (Elementz endorsed! :U). Not sure how it works in a real game though, I'm still trying to do some more testing before I give it a real try. Edited February 16, 2012 by Dexie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal Zero Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 If you're going to jungle Nautilus (though I don't recommend it because I think he's such a beast in top lane and I prefer to have an AD or AP jungler as opposed to the gank tanks) I would run: ASPD Reds Armor Yellows MR/lvl Blues Movespeed Quints The idea is that your main jungling damage is coming off Titan's Wrath. Sure the MPen will help a bit and scale better into lategame but you want to get as many swings in as possible before that shield breaks to maximize your damage. Also don't forget that it resets your attack timer so you can double attack with it. Also I'd go 9 21 0 masteries and focus on getting the attack speed and armor pen because that does really help with junglers and also because once you get your Philo stone your buffs are really non-essential. As long as you get a solid pull on blue after some damage acceleration at wolves you will probably jungle just fine much like Sejuani. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophetik music Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Alright, I'll keep this stuff in mind.Also, is there some trick to jungling as Nautilus? It feels like I'm always hovering around 100 health if I start with cloth/5pots if I start with E, and if I start with W I can't even kill blue. I'm running armorpen reds, flat armor yellows, mr/lvl blues and armor pen quints. Masteries are all in the defensive tree. jungling him, i used either ad/armor/mr5/hp for tanks or magpen/armor/mr5/ap for bruiser. most of your damage comes from w, honestly, so i'd usually go w-e-w-q-w to allow for taking a few tower hits occasionally. after that, i max riptide, max shield, max grab. he's super fun to play because he's so goddamned big. i played with an annie in lane as a bioshock joke with a buddy and she's seriously a quarter of my size. it's just like laning mummy or blitz - as long as you're careful about your mana usage and coordinate with your lane partner, you're fine. if you spam early, you're fucked beacuse he doesn't do anything without mana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal Zero Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Proph, movespeed quints are essential because the main reason you're jungling him is for ganking. As for the discussion between MPen vs ASPD reds it's a question of what's more important to you: a better lategame and damage (again, not the point of a Nautilus jungle) or for a faster jungle (to get to ganking faster). ArPen/AD reds do help in that regard as well but your regular auto attacks aren't your rate limiting factor holding you back from ganking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophetik music Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Proph, movespeed quints are essential because the main reason you're jungling him is for ganking. As for the discussion between MPen vs ASPD reds it's a question of what's more important to you: a better lategame and damage (again, not the point of a Nautilus jungle) or for a faster jungle (to get to ganking faster). ArPen/AD reds do help in that regard as well but your regular auto attacks aren't your rate limiting factor holding you back from ganking. i don't use movespeed because i don't own them atm. they're next on the list, since hp quints don't do a whole lot after level three. i don't know about you guys, but i only have three rune pages - an ap caster page, an ad melee page, and a tank page. i rarely change my runepages around to adjust for who i want to play, because i don't want to get caught in a game where i want to play a certain champ and then can't because i don't have the runes for it. do you all swap constantly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal Zero Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I have 4 rune pages. All the ones I got for free. I probably own about 10 pages worth of different valid rune combinations. I always keep a general AD page (both range and melee), a mana-based AP caster page, and the other two rotate. Right now one is for AD melee jungle and the last is for AP burst tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexie Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Mmm...I really prefer those 9 points in Utility. He's so he needs that movespeed, and IMO the buff duration mastery is a must have for every jungler. And sure, philo stone is going to help his mana, but the CDR from blue is still quite useful on him, so I wouldn't say buffs are non-essential. Edited February 16, 2012 by Dexie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal Zero Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Just to nitpick and show how I think when I make my own builds: Why are you jungle Nautilus as opposed to lane? To gank. What do you need to gank? Get to level 4+. When where and how many spells will be used in a gank? Usually 3. I'm initiating. Success or failure is determined almost immediately. What do I need more: keeping my buffs a little longer or getting to 4+ faster? Get to 4+. I can see the movespeed argument but you lose a lot of time if you're not at least breaking even with neutral creep armor and you shouldn't be packing ArPen runes. It's gotta come from somewhere. Also that's why you run the quints cause they give a lot more for less investment and any additional % has diminishing returns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I have three pages and swap pretty regularly. My typical builds: Ranged AD page looks like this: * 6x Arpen reds * 3x AD reds * 3x AD quints * 6x mana regen/lvl yellows * 3x armor yellows * 9x magic resist/lvl blue Standard AP Carry: * 9x Magic pen reds * 9x mana regen/lvl yellows * 5x AP/lvl blues * 4x flat AP blues * 1x AP quint * 2x HP quints (that extra 50 hp has saved me many times) Jungler: * 9x attack speed reds * 9x armor yellows * 9x magic resist/level blues * 3x movespeed quints Top bruiser: * Attack speed, AD, arpen reds (depends on who) * 9x armor yellows * 9x mr/lvl blues * HP, AD and movespeed quints vary on character Vladimir, Leblanc * 9x magic pen * 9x AP/lvl blues * 3x AP quints * 9x AP/lvl yellows Support * 4x gold yellows * 5x mana regen/lvl yellows * 3x gold quints * 9x armor pen reds, but I am switching over to 9x flat armor reds * 9x mr/lvl blues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 We played two games with my proposed strategy last night. First one, we won. Second one, we lost, but I attribute that loss to feeding-level play by one of out bot laners Thoughts: * Teemo as solo top is a great idea. * Corki works pretty well as a solo mid thanks to his excellent last hitting, pokes and escapes (with Flash and Heal plus his W, he's damn near impossible to gank and can get kills easily.) Tristana is not bad either but I think I like Corki more. * Zilean is strong as one of the bot APs for his ridiculous bomb harass. Annie also seems to be a solid option to get farmed. * Nautilus as jungler is real good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Derrit Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 hey everyone who has tried to play with me lately sorry i haven't responded i just haven't been home. i do want to play with you all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BardicKnowledge Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 New record for Dominion: 8:32 to win, 451 points on our side. I was Gangplank, started w/ Zeal, then boots --> TF, Berserker's, done. GP's point control is sick, he is one of the best chars for the gametype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Derrit Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 New record for Dominion: 8:32 to win, 451 points on our side. I was Gangplank, started w/ Zeal, then boots --> TF, Berserker's, done. GP's point control is sick, he is one of the best chars for the gametype. i beat that by 32 seconds earlier with shen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal Zero Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 hey everyone who has tried to play with me lately sorry i haven't responded i just haven't been home. i do want to play with you all You cut me deep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 So I think I've decided that Graves is the best ranged AD. Even though he's been nerfed several times, his kit is way too good. His Q allows him to poke and do tremendous AOE damage. W is great for covering escapes or for messing up enemy carries - all-around good utility. E is a fantastic steroid and escape. And the damage on R is absurd. He can burst down most any champion from practically full health with E->R->Q and a few auto attacks, and survive gank attempts extraordinarily well. Plus, he scales very well into lategame and is able to stay safe in teamfights between his ranged pokes and E. It seems like there is little reason NOT to play him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 graves was second best until they nerfed vayne, and then yeah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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