Videogames and Sexism

[Tensei]

Time to leave before I say something stupid.

Woops, too late.

That aside, this Kate Beaton comic is kind of overused, but I feel like it sums up the issues pretty well, so it's relevant to the thread:

[Darangen]

you realize that the reason behind there being 1 female gamer there are 100 male gamers is because the medium is sexist, right?

I'm gonna have to call bullshit on that assumption. Even Luiza said that the assumed sexism in games isn't what turns girls away. Go ask a girl why they don't play video games, I guarantee you that they won't respond with "Because they're sexist."

your argument here is based on the idea that videogames don't need to be designed with women in mind, because women don't play videogames, and I find it baffling that anyone would have to stop and explain why that exact train of thought is sexist

That's not what my argument is based on. My argument is based on having fantasy in a fantasy world, meaning things don't have to be 100% realistic.

[DarkeSword]

One more thing.

Most, if not All of the people arguing about this on this thread right now, are guys right?

Just checking.

Note the Competition and Conflict. Just please leave out the Drama.

That's chick crap.

Time to leave before I say something stupid.

Or I could just kick you out.

Seriously guys, this is a pretty good topic to be discussing, but if all you people are going to do is post here saying shit like "this is a stupid topic why even bother talking about it" or you're actually just going to be sexist, then you need to think twice before hitting that Submit Reply button.

Stay on topic and don't be a dismissive ass about it.

[Archaon]

Time to leave before I say something stupid.

Too late!

But how does Tifa's teeny-tiny skirt and obnoxiously large boobs make sense for a monk? If anything, her boobs should be hitting people instead of her fist; at that size, they may just do more damage that way.

For reference, this is what a female mixed martial artist actually looks like.

Now to be fair, almost everyone in FFVII had little stick arms because of the graphical limitations. So feel free to suggest that they would have designed Tifa any differently had she been made for a next-gen console, that I may point at you and laugh derisively.

[Darangen]

One more thing.

Most, if not All of the people arguing about this on this thread right now, are guys right?

Just checking.

Note the Competition and Conflict. Just please leave out the Drama.

That's chick crap.

Time to leave before I say something stupid.

Luiza's a girl.

And she's one of the people saying who cares if there are boobs in video games.

[Mirby]

That is true, but the female mma fighter has tiny boobs (or at least the sports bra is compressing them).

Having the huge-ass knockers that Tifa has would definitely be a disadvantage in a fight, as they'd probably knock someone out quickly (probably herself)

[PriZm]

I think part of the problem is that what men consider sexually attractive is much more universal than what women look for in a man physically.

In that light, it is virtually impossible to objectify the male body because females have more complex criteria to determine what is attractive and what is not. That's why people have come up with the argument that even ripped males are designed to appeal to male heterosexual gamers.

There is also the fact that males and females have different sexual/psychological responses to what they consider attractive. Men will be more impressed with a simple still picture of a naked female body. It would be interesting to see whether, in art, females are more attracted to a character because of his accomplishments or his looks.

I don't think people who consume or even design these products are necessarily sexist in that they think of women as lesser humans. They are only trying to come up with ways that will help sell a larger number of games, which becomes 'sexist' because of the universality and simplistic nature of what men usually find sexually attractive in a woman.

[Bleck]

I'm gonna have to call bullshit on that assumption. Even Luiza said that the assumed sexism in games isn't what turns girls away. Go ask a girl why they don't play video games, I guarantee you that they won't respond with "Because they're sexist."

another sexist action; assuming that all girls think alike

luiza saying that she doesn't really care about huge cartoony tits does not magically mean that no girl ever cares about that thing ever

That's not what my argument is based on. My argument is based on having fantasy in a fantasy world, meaning things don't have to be 100% realistic.

response to this already summed up in this post

I don't think neither me nor Bleck are arguing that there should never be attractive or sexualized female characters in videogames at all. The problem stems from the fact that sexualized female characters seem to make up the overwhelming majority by far!

Yes, "It's a fantasy and escapism, so they can dress up in high heels and boobplate and still be effective in battle.", but it's almost exclusively a MALE fantasy, which is where the problem really lies.

[Darangen]

So feel free to suggest that they would have designed Tifa any differently had she been made for a next-gen console, that I may point at you and laugh derisively.

Advent Children is a good place to start on how she would look on a next gen console.

[Archaon]

Tensei and Bleck, I'm glad we're all on the same wavelength here but seriously, quit stealing my thunder

That is true, but the female mma fighter has tiny boobs (or at least the sports bra is compressing them).

No no, I wasn't saying they look the same. I was saying the opposite. Tifa is skinny game girl designed for men, other picture is actual powerfully built woman.

[LuIzA]

Luiza's a girl.

And she's one of the people saying who cares if there are boobs in video games.

Well, I WOULD prefer if game boobs were more neutral and not oversized and what not. But in the end, who cares? A great game is still a great game, oversized breasts or not.

[Darangen]

another sexist action; assuming that all girls think alike

Was it not you who said that girls don't play games because the medium is sexist? Isn't that assuming all girls think alike as well? L2generalization.

[Rexy]

Now that the female plaecment is brought up, it can be true that it can sell games; but not necessarily.

Being a Crash Bandicoot fan I'll see if I can bring in a tale regarding that series. Let me copy a question from Naughty Dog founder Jason Rubin's interview at Crashmania:

Why exactly was Crash's girlfriend, Tawna, removed from the games? There have been many rumours floating around for a long time, but most fans are still searching for a definite answer.

- The truth is as follows: the marketing director of Universal Interactive Studios was a very small minded woman. She saw the designs of Tawna, hot of the press, and insisted that the character would never get into the game as drawn. The original designs, which I think can still be found on the Naughty Dog website were reminiscent of Jessica Rabbit from the Roger Rabbit movies… SEXY. The marketing director was not impressed. She called me into the office and yelled at me that women were not to be objectified in such manors, and that no real woman would EVER wear such clothing. We had drawn Tawna's clothing based on another employees outfit that day. When the woman wearing Tawna's outfit in real life walked by the office door, the marketing director lost it. We were both forced to listen to half an hour's ranting about women's issues that culminated with a tirade about some women's shoe commercial that featured women playing basketball in high heels. She also insisted that as of that date "no video game would ever be successful because of a sexy woman ever again." None of this was relevant, of course. What was relevant was that the marketing director got the president of Universal Interactive so nervous that he asked us to change Tawna to her specifications. Thus the final Tawna that made it in the game was heavily toned down and forced to wear the kind of clothing that a woman might on safari in the late 1800's. ... The end result was such a disaster that we yanked her from the sequels. BTW: Lara Croft launched shortly thereafter and took the video game world by storm and the marketing director left games forever. Now you have the whole story.

For the record, the original Tawna design had her wearing a very short pair of pants AND revealed her cleavage, which was indeed seen as an over-pimping kind of way for women. In the final design, the pants were shorter and her shirt was far more modest, not to mention she somehow lost her tail.

But for the success of Crash back in the day, even the sequels didn't need sexual females to sell well. Crash 2 and 3 featured a female character but in a different way - Crash's sister Coco, coming across more like an intellectual rather than a VG pin-up. In the second game she never left her laptop but used it as a means of communication to Crash. In the third game however, she became a full-on playable character, being used for the jetski stages, the China stages (where she'd end up riding a tiger cub), an airplane dogfight and the boss fight against N. Gin (hence the fandom soon seeing them as a potential pairing).

In fact, Naughty Dog didn't start referring to sexy girls again until Crash Team Racing, though that was merely used for the trophy girls at the end of each race. The sexual approach would be used more often though when they moved on to Jak and Daxter, in which pretty much every leading lady would reveal their legs (Ashelin), their cleavage (Tess) or their waist (Keira). To my knowledge they didn't have any modestly-dressed females in the series until Rayn in Jak X, though I'm not too sure if that sold as well as ND's other titles to be honest.

So yes, in the early 90s it was possible to get games to have strong female characters AND sell well. Nowadays, we aren't too sure, but the examples stated already (and I especially agree with the Valve statement) have shown that while few and far between, non-pin-up girls are still around in videogame form to some degree. I'm in the same boat as Luiza in that I'm not too offended by how females are portrayed; again, it's the inner character that I want to see rather than appearances.

[Tensei]

I'm gonna have to call bullshit on that assumption. Even Luiza said that the assumed sexism in games isn't what turns girls away. Go ask a girl why they don't play video games, I guarantee you that they won't respond with "Because they're sexist."

You do realize that the assumption that any individual can speak for women as a whole is pretty sexist in and of itself right?

That's not what my argument is based on. My argument is based on having fantasy in a fantasy world, meaning things don't have to be 100% realistic.

...except in actual fantasy games where some people throw a hissy fit when they see a woman in any kind of position of authority, 'because it's not realistic'. That is actual criticism I've seen aimed at games like Skyrim for example.

Ultimately, yes, you're kinda right in the sense that it's probably more profitable at the moment to make games that outright pander to a male audience, but that doesn't make it a good thing!

[Mirby]

Now that the female plaecment is brought up, it can be true that it can sell games; but not necessarily.

Being a Crash Bandicoot fan I'll see if I can bring in a tale regarding that series. Let me copy a question from Naughty Dog founder Jason Rubin's interview at Crashmania:

For the record, the original Tawna design had her wearing a very short pair of pants AND revealed her cleavage, which was indeed seen as an over-pimping kind of way for women. In the final design, the pants were shorter and her shirt was far more modest, not to mention she somehow lost her tail.

But for the success of Crash back in the day, even the sequels didn't need sexual females to sell well. Crash 2 and 3 featured a female character but in a different way - Crash's sister Coco, coming across more like an intellectual rather than a VG pin-up. In the second game she never left her laptop but used it as a means of communication to Crash. In the third game however, she became a full-on playable character, being used for the jetski stages, the China stages (where she'd end up riding a tiger cub), an airplane dogfight and the boss fight against N. Gin (hence the fandom soon seeing them as a potential pairing).

In fact, Naughty Dog didn't start referring to sexy girls again until Crash Team Racing, though that was merely used for the trophy girls at the end of each race. The sexual approach would be used more often though when they moved on to Jak and Daxter, in which pretty much every leading lady would reveal their legs (Ashelin), their cleavage (Tess) or their waist (Keira). To my knowledge they didn't have any modestly-dressed females in the series until Rayn in Jak X, though I'm not too sure if that sold as well as ND's other titles to be honest.

So yes, in the early 90s it was possible to get games to have strong female characters AND sell well. Nowadays, we aren't too sure, but the examples stated already (and I especially agree with the Valve statement) have shown that while few and far between, non-pin-up girls are still around in videogame form to some degree. I'm in the same boat as Luiza in that I'm not too offended by how females are portrayed; again, it's the inner character that I want to see rather than appearances.

Oh Rexy, bringing in the ND angle.

Good read. :3

@Archaon: oic

[Bleck]

Was it not you who said that girls don't play games because the medium is sexist? Isn't that assuming all girls think alike as well?

this is a semantics scarecrow; my assumption is that the girls who do not play video games (a group that definitely exists) mostly do it for the same reason

your assumption is that one girl saying that she doesn't have a problem with something (something that she later clarified was not even the case) means that it is unreasonable to claim that any other girl thinks any different

we both made generalizations; the difference is that yours was sexist

[Darangen]

You do realize that the assumption that any individual can speak for women as a whole is pretty sexist in and of itself right?

I never said Luiza was the spokeswoman for all women. I merely pointed out that as a girl gamer she doesn't see sexism as a deterrent.

[lazygecko]

I get the impression most female players in games like WoW or Elder Scrolls enjoy dressing their avatars in the same stereotypical fashion as men do. Just chalk it down to people being vain in general.

What I find more funny is the disproportionate lack of older female characters in video games (especially as protagonists, though the same applies to men to a lesser extent). Any woman at middle age or above is more likely to be an elf, or some thousand year old divine entity as to retain a youthful appearance. In the few cases you do get genuine elder women like that old mage lady in Dragon Age, or Uthgerd the Unbroken in Skyrim, it doesn't take long for mods to appear that make them look much younger.

[Archaon]

Was it not you who said that girls don't play games because the medium is sexist? Isn't that assuming all girls think alike as well? L2generalization.

There is a difference between saying "There are multiple factors in mainstream games and the gaming community that many women find alienating" and "I totally talked to this one girl who said big boobs are fine, so I don't know what you're arguing about!"

[Skrypnyk]

Well, so what? What's wrong with bein' sexy?

[LuIzA]

You do realize that the assumption that any individual can speak for women as a whole is pretty sexist in and of itself right?

Like Darangen said, that was never my point. But I still think what he said rings true:

Go ask a girl why they don't play video games, I guarantee you that they won't respond with "Because they're sexist."

[Tensei]

I never said Luiza was the spokeswoman for all women. I merely pointed out that as a girl gamer she doesn't see sexism as a deterrent.

You used it as a means to support your argument that gaming as a medium is not sexist.

"Even Luiza said that the assumed sexism in games isn't what turns girls away. Go ask a girl why they don't play video games, I guarantee you that they won't respond with "Because they're sexist."

That is what you said. You can literally guarantee that no girl in the world is turned off from a particular videogame because of sexism.

[Darangen]

There is a difference between saying "There are multiple factors in mainstream games and the gaming community that many women find alienating" and "I totally talked to this one girl who said big boobs are fine, so I don't know what you're arguing about!"

Again, and for the last time..

I didn't say since one girls said boobs are fine that all girls also think boobs are fine, I merely pointed out that one girl who's responded on this topic has pointed out that sexualized female characters aren't a deterrent for girl gamers. It's for a bunch of other reasons, each girl usually having their own personal reason to not be a gamer.

[Darangen]

You used it as a means to support your argument that gaming as a medium is not sexist.

"Even Luiza said that the assumed sexism in games isn't what turns girls away. Go ask a girl why they don't play video games, I guarantee you that they won't respond with "Because they're sexist."

That is what you said. You can literally guarantee that no girl in the world is turned off from a particular videogame because of sexism.

Wrong.

I used it to support my counter-argument to Bleck's statement that "you realize that the reason behind there being 1 female gamer there are 100 male gamers is because the medium is sexist, right?"

[PriZm]

I love how "let's discuss this" becomes "let's white-knight and accuse others of being sexist and then gang up on them"