Videogames and Sexism

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

Well, so what? What's wrong with bein' sexy?

Everything!

[Bleck]

I love how "let's discuss this" becomes "let's white-knight and accuse others of being sexist and then gang up on them"

most arguments that dismiss sexism in media use rationales that are primarily sexist; the easiest way to prove that someone is wrong about sexism is to point out the ways in which they are being sexist

[DarkeSword]

Guys, try to get back on topic instead of going back and forth with "that's not what you SAID, your arguement doesn't WORK because you said THIS."

[Archaon]

It's for a bunch of other reasons, each girl usually having their own personal reason to not be a gamer.

Nobody is suggesting that every woman who doesn't play games doesn't do so because games are sexist. Even if games were not sexist, plenty of women still wouldn't be into them, just as plenty of men aren't. That's fine. But the fact remains that gaming is still an extremely male-dominant hobby, and the reason for that is that it is sexist.

Sure, if you ask some random woman on the street why she doesn't play games, she probably won't say "Because they're sexist," but so what? What does that mean? Maybe she says something like "I just never felt like they were for me." Hmm. I wonder if that could be caused by games being marketed so heavily towards men and only men?

I love how "let's discuss this" becomes "let's white-knight and accuse others of being sexist and then gang up on them"

I love how "white knight" has become a catch-all term for "anyone with a viewpoint that works in favour of the accursed womankind".

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

Sexism is denying something or degrading someone based on their sex.

Finding, desiring, or designing something sexually or aesthetically attractive is not.

One is about equality and controlling one's own destiny regardless of gender, while the other is about what turns you on.

[Bleck]

Sexism is denying something or degrading someone based on their sex.

Finding, desiring, or designing something sexually or aesthetically attractive is not.

arguing that the only purpose women should serve is to be something that one finds aesthetically pleasing is degrading to women and therefore sexist

and since the industry does exactly that thing currently, arguing that the industry does nothing wrong is the same as arguing that the industry does everything right in being sexist

in short, supporting a sexist industry is a sexist action

[Archaon]

Sexism is denying something or degrading someone based on their sex.

Finding, desiring, or designing something sexually or aesthetically attractive is not.

And?

If you think Ivy's hot, fine. That doesn't make you a sexist. If you think all women in all games should look like Ivy, regardless of how alienating it is to female gamers, then guess what?

[Darangen]

arguing that the only purpose women should serve is to be something that one finds aesthetically pleasing is degrading to women and therefore sexist

and since the industry does exactly that thing currently, arguing that the industry does nothing wrong is the same as arguing that the industry does everything right in being sexist

in short, supporting a sexist industry is a sexist action

If the sole reason games put female characters in there is to please males then yeah, that could be considered sexist.

I'd have to stand on the other side and say that most games don't put female characters in there for that sole purpose. To say that the industry as a whole does that is narrow-minded.

I know a lot of the female characters in games are created with attractive features, but I refuse to believe that they were put in the for the sole purpose of eye candy. They were put in there for the story, and then made attractive.

Of course this is a generalization, for those who like to say all my statements are made as absolutes with no leniency whatsoever. There ARE games out there that put female characters in there for eye candy and nothing more. Those games are sexist, I agree.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

And?

If you think Ivy's hot, fine. That doesn't make you a sexist. If you think all women in all games should look like Ivy, regardless of how alienating it is to female gamers, then guess what?

But I didn't say that. I didn't even imply that.

I said

The dichotomy of "cute but dumb girl/ugly, but capable girl" is such a goddamned farce in the first place.

.

[lazygecko]

Everyone seems so confident on being able to speak for women in general when they claim it's the ridiculous stripper outfits that are the prime reason for alienating women from video games.

Based on my own experiences, it's generally fantasy and MMORPG communities that have a more balanced male/female ratio. And these are the types of games typically most guilty of objectifying women. The type of communities I've seen the least amount of women participating in are RTS games.

[Nonamer]

Wow. This blew up faster than the killer studio chops thread.

I think Extra Credits had two really good episodes on the issue.

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/sex-in-games

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/sexual-diversity

[Bleck]

Everyone seems so confident on being able to speak for women in general when they claim it's the ridiculous stripper outfits that are the prime reason for alienating women from video games.

I don't think anyone is actually saying this?

[LuIzA]

Nobody is suggesting that every woman who doesn't play games doesn't do so because games are sexist. Even if games were not sexist, plenty of women still wouldn't be into them, just as plenty of men aren't. That's fine. But the fact remains that gaming is still an extremely male-dominant hobby, and the reason for that is that it is sexist.

That there is a little contradicting.

Though I do get your point from the rest of your post not quoted here, thinking back on the last advertisements for games I've seen, they aren't necessarily targeted towards men. So despite being male dominant, I wouldn't see sexism as a reason. it's kind of like why there are so little women in an engineering classroom (I know, I've been there), it's because women tend not to be interested by math and that sort of thing, the reason for that is irrelevant, but it hasn't got anything to do with sexism.

While I may not have picked the best example, I still think the reason women are a minority amongst gamers has more to do with the concept of gaming itself than sexism within games.

[Darangen]

Based on my own experiences, it's generally fantasy and MMORPG communities that have a more balanced male/female ratio. And these are the types of games typically most guilty of objectifying women. The type of communities I've seen the least amount of women participating in are RTS games.

That's my experience as well. That AND the fact that all of the girls I've run into that play RPG's or MMO's enjoy dressing their characters up in these outfits.

Disclaimer: The above statement is based on my personal experience and is not intended to include every single female that's ever existed on the planet.

[Tensei]

They were put in there for the story, and then made attractive.

The second part of that sentence is where the problem lies. Obviously the character itself most likely serves some function towards the plot of the game or whatever, but the whole aspect of physical attractiveness generally shouldn't be necessary for that!

[Darangen]

I don't think anyone is actually saying this?

Except you're the one who said it right here.

[Archaon]

But I didn't say that. I didn't even imply that.

I said The dichotomy of "cute but dumb girl/ugly, but capable girl" is such a goddamned farce in the first place.

So you're basically just arguing against strawmen, then.

The point isn't "we need more ugly girls", the point is "we need more female characters that aren't catered to a male ideal." A grizzled male warrior in a game will look the part, while a grizzled female warrior will look exactly like every other skimpily dressed female warrior except maybe with a scar. A small one. Can't have it affect her looks at all.

If the sole reason games put female characters in there is to please males then yeah, that could be considered sexist.

I'd have to stand on the other side and say that most games don't put female characters in there for that sole purpose. To say that the industry as a whole does that is narrow-minded.

I know a lot of the female characters in games are created with attractive features, but I refuse to believe that they were put in the for the sole purpose of eye candy. They were put in there for the story, and then made attractive.

Whether they were put there for the sole purpose of being eye-candy is irrelevant. They're still eye-candy. The design is still intended for a male audience..You still have strong, tough-looking men stood next to supermodel women, even though they're both supposed to be warriors . You still have men running around in actual armour while the women get steel swimsuits. You still have women in passive, damsel-in-distress/love interest roles while men have all the agency. And so on.

[PROTO·DOME]

I'd hardly say games were sexist.

C'mon, most games don't even have proper people in them, if humans at all.

[Bleck]

it's kind of like why there are so little women in an engineering classroom it's because women tend not to be interested by math and that sort of thing, the reason for that hasn't got anything to do with sexism.

you think that the reason "women usually aren't interested by math" has nothing to do with sexism

do you... do you actually know what sexism means

the fact that all of the girls I've run into that play RPG's or MMO's enjoy dressing their characters up in these outfits.

this is irrelevant

[Bleck]

Except you're the one who said it right here.

oh wait I see you just don't actually get it

you think I'm saying that women somehow make the conscious choice to not like videogames because they are sexist, whereas what I'm actually saying is that most women are not interested in video games to begin with because they have never been something that our (sexist) society has ever deemed appropriate for women to enjoy

women don't 'stop' playing videogames because they are sexist; they mostly just never start because society expresses that video games are not a thing for women to enjoy

and society expresses this by primarily producing videogames that are designed to pander to the male fantasy

[keiiii]

Video games aren't sexist for having attractive female characters. No one is saying you need to have a competent, UNattractive female character for a game to be not sexist. I'm not even complaining about video games catering to fantasies of male gamers.

The problem is something else.

Problem #1: imbalance. There aren't nearly enough characters, male or female, designed to cater to females. THAT's why there aren't as many female gamers. Archaon hit the nail on the head. Hollywood has chick flicks. How many chick flicky video games have you seen?

Someone brought up Twilight as an example, and even though I personally don't like that series, it's a GREAT example of an entire series shamelessly catering to females. I don't see a lot of video games devoted to catering to the fantasies of the female audience. I do see a whole lot devoted to catering to male fantasies, though.

This imbalance is definitely less severe with Japanese games, as they provide obligatory Pretty Boys With Psychological Baggage. Even a franchise like Dead or Alive has Ein (who failed to garner popularity, presumably because anyone who would have found him attractive were driven away by the boobs before he was even introduced to the series). Instead of de-sexualizing female characters, they sexualize males. That's fine, but I would like to see this done in a more believable, less cliche ways.

Problem #2, and the more insidious of the two: people fail to recognize this imbalance.

[LuIzA]

you think that the reason "women usually aren't interested by math" has nothing to do with sexism

do you... do you actually know what sexism means

Well, if you make a poll and come up with said result, then that means that a poll is sexist? It says something about the majority of people asked, but never did I say women MUST NOT like/do something because the majority of women don't. Are YOU sure you know what sexism means?

[Archaon]

women don't stop playing videogames because they are sexist; they mostly just never start because society expresses that video games are not a thing for women to enjoy

Also, the problem doesn't end at non-gamer women. There are a lot of women who do enjoy video games and yet are still, oddly enough, put off by

This is HEAVY ARMOUR.

[Darangen]

The second part of that sentence is where the problem lies. Obviously the character itself most likely serves some function towards the plot of the game or whatever, but the whole aspect of physical attractiveness generally shouldn't be necessary for that!

But why make an unattractive character when they could make them attractive?

I see no point in making something intentionally unattractive unless the story calls for it.

[psychowolf]

it's because women tend not to be interested by math and that sort of thing,

You obviously havent seen this youtuber then:

Sexism in gaming? eh there's sexism everywhere, much like racism

Unless we're gonna all become politically correct about every little thing, the best thing to do is ignore it.

If you dislike the way a character is portrayed in something the best thing to do is boycott the person who developed it or something like that, make a petition to let it be known as to why your boycotting them, or at least send them a letter telling them what your complaint is and why.