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OUYA: A $99 Android console meant to open up console gaming

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It's not that it's not good enough. A console is a console because it does only one thing: play video games with a specific controller. Consequently, developing for computers is a very different task, because you have to create a game with flexible hardware, and most importantly flexible sources of input. If the main input is supposed to be a mouse and a keyboard, then some types of games are at a big disadvantage, because they are great to play with a controller, and awkward with mouse+keyboard. The problem, in this case, is that a computer game HAS to be functional with mouse+keyboard, and MAY be playable with a controller. I think denying this would be frankly stupid.

On a console, your game can only possibly be played with a specific source of input (which is the console's controller) and the general specs of the hardware are not flexible (which is the case for a console). The games you make don't have to adapt to the hardware's capacity (which I think is just convenient for optimizing the game), neither do they have to adapt to the source of input. It's a controller, and that's it. I think that's the main reason some games are meant to be played on a console and some are meant to be played on a computer.

I don't think it's a matter of "my computer can do just fine as a console, just plug it in the TV and get a controller". Devs can't make a computer game and say "this game is meant to be played like a console game, so you have to get a controller to play it".

The argument about different hardware specs is facetious. Any independent game will be of the graphical and computational scope such that it really wont matter. Any AAA game will be expected to run only on a recent computer (just as it's expected to run on only recent consoles). Rendering at various resolutions is handled by every major engine that I know of. Doing it from scratch isn't particularly difficult, either.

I'll give you preferential control schemes; some games do indeed feel better on a controller (though others better with KBM or HOTAS). Input mapping is a pretty simple problem, but needing to have the experience work with KBM could be a real issue.

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The argument about different hardware specs is facetious. Any independent game will be of the graphical and computational scope such that it really wont matter. Any AAA game will be expected to run only on a recent computer (just as it's expected to run on only recent consoles). Rendering at various resolutions is handled by every major engine that I know of. Doing it from scratch isn't particularly difficult, either.

I was talking about consoles in general, because the argument had slightly drifted to "are consoles different than computers". I am well aware that most indie devs don't have the means to make games that push recent computers to their limits.

needing to have the experience work with KBM could be a real issue.

That is my main point.

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Devs can't make a computer game and say "this game is meant to be played like a console game, so you have to get a controller to play it".

They can, and they do. Have you ever played Super Meat Boy? It tells you to play with an Xbox Controller before the title screen comes up.

The hardware specs point is kinda bogus. You don't have to develop for any specific hardware; we solved this problem many years ago with things like DirectX and OpenGL.

I am well aware that most indie devs don't have the means to make games that push recent computers to their limits.

http://www.unrealengine.com/

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They can, and they do. Have you ever played Super Meat Boy? It tells you to play with an Xbox Controller before the title screen comes up.

You don't seem to understand my point. SMB works well on keyboard because it HAS to, but the devs *recommend* playing the game with a controller. On a console, the ONLY way to play the game is with the controller.

And the point about the hardware was that it can be a good thing, when making a console game, that consoles have specific hardware.

Also, unreal engine = goodbye money. It's still a cool engine though.

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"this game is meant to be played like a console game, so you have to get a controller to play it".

Eh, Nihon Falcom put out quite a few PC games that were designed first and foremost with a controller in mind, with keyboard + mouse more of an afterthought. When they tried to release Xanadu Next as a keyboard + mouse game, the fans demanded gamepad support (which was quickly provided in a patch).

Admittedly, though, the Japanese PC scene is an odd creature.

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It's not that it's not good enough. A console is a console because it does only one thing: play video games with a specific controller. Consequently, developing for computers is a very different task, because you have to create a game with flexible hardware, and most importantly flexible sources of input. If the main input is supposed to be a mouse and a keyboard, then some types of games are at a big disadvantage, because they are great to play with a controller, and awkward with mouse+keyboard. The problem, in this case, is that a computer game HAS to be functional with mouse+keyboard, and MAY be playable with a controller. I think denying this would be frankly stupid.

Name one example of a game that doesn't work on keyboard and mouse that does on a controller.

Edited by Neblix

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Name one example of a game that doesn't work on keyboard and mouse that does on a controller.

I can name whole genres.

Platformers (like the before mentioned Super Meat Boy), Fighters, and Racing games are pretty akward to play on a keyboard & mouse.

They may technically "work" but yeah. No thanks

3rd person action/adventure games are kinda wonky if they dont get it right, which they usually don't. Thats more of a preference than a problem though

Also, any sort of game where you want to play with more than one player on a single screen. Again, possible but sharing a KB isn't fun

(this is to those who keep saying PC = Console, too)

As I mentioned earlier, lots of PC games simply don't support controllers. Or only work with the Xbox controller. You have to use stuff like Xpadder or Joy 2 Key, or use the Xbox 360 controller emulator or DualShock 3 / Sixasis custom bluetooth drivers (and buggy Motioninjoy). Even if you get it working, you have to map keys every game. I can do it because I'm willing to fiddle all day to get something working, but its a lot to go through for your average joe.

And thats on top of possible driver issues, possible OS problems, possibly crappy DRM that breaks your game, etc.

Consoles you select a game, pick up a controller and you are ready to go.

You don't have to develop for any specific hardware; we solved this problem many years ago with things like DirectX and OpenGL.

If only this were really true :/

given the only reason it got brought up in the first place is that indie developers 'deserve to develop for a console' as if putting out games on pc isn't good enough. which is a silly notion.

A good game is a good game. Acting like having tons of money to afford a console license somehow makes games better again is, again, a shallow thought. There is plenty of garbage that comes out on consoles. Acting like its a space Indies do not deserve to be on isn't helpful. Even Valve thinks consoles are too expensive to produce content on like they do regularly on the PC

An affordable Indie focused console would be nice outlet for those who want to make console style games, but don't happen to millionaires.

Edited by Crowbar Man

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I can name whole genres.

Platformers (like the before mentioned Super Meat Boy), Fighters, and Racing games are pretty akward to play on a keyboard & mouse.

They may technically "work" but yeah. No thanks

3rd person action/adventure games are kinda wonky if they dont get it right, which they usually don't. Thats more of a preference than a problem though

Also, any sort of game where you want to play with more than one player on a single screen. Again, possible but sharing a KB isn't fun

(this is to those who keep saying PC = Console, too)

As I mentioned earlier, lots of PC games simply don't support controllers. Or only work with the Xbox controller. You have to use stuff like Xpadder or Joy 2 Key, or use the Xbox 360 controller emulator or DualShock 3 / Sixasis custom bluetooth drivers (and buggy Motioninjoy). Even if you get it working, you have to map keys every game. I can do it because I'm willing to fiddle all day to get something working, but its a lot to go through for your average joe.

And thats on top of possible driver issues, possible OS problems, possibly crappy DRM that breaks your game, etc.

literally zero of these things are examples of games that can't be played with a mouse and keyboard. they're examples of games you personally don't enjoy on a mouse and keyboard. also, there is no such thing as 'not supporting controllers.' it's an input device. once it's installed, it can be used for input because you can map it to do anything you want.

Consoles you select a game, pick up a controller and you are ready to go.

If only this were really true :/

A good game is a good game. Acting like having tons of money to afford a console license somehow makes games better again is, again, a shallow thought. There is plenty of garbage that comes out on consoles. Acting like its a space Indies do not deserve to be on isn't helpful. Even Valve thinks consoles are too expensive to produce content on like they do regularly on the PC

i don't debate there's plenty of garbageware on consoles. but the proportion is on a whole other level. and indies do deserve to be on consoles. specifically indie developers that are good, and can prove their success to the point where they're able to produce a console because they have the clout and popular following to back it up.

An affordable Indie focused console would be nice outlet for those who want to make console style games, but don't happen to millionaires. if you want to make a console style game i hope you have a lot of money anyways. there's a reason it's so much more expensive to develop for consoles outside of licensing fees. it's because console style experiences require more manpower and significantly higher technical quality. a technically brilliant 2d sprited game (let's say something akin to a sonic and knuckles 3) is a great game, but being able to do that doesn't translate to a 3d, high powered, more technically demanding game (see all 3d sonic games ever. except apparently sonic adventure 2 battle but i personally wasn't the hugest of fans).

while there is ingrained issues in the system as it is now, there is a reason that game development is a meritocracy. and it SHOULD be a meritocracy. making games costs money, even small games. nobody (including developers themselves) wants to make a game that nobody likes, because it's a waste of the developers' time and money. if you can't produce a quality game it probably means you should keep educating yourself until you can. not that someone needs to make you a cheap, easy-to-develop-for system to put it on.

edit: gollgagh nice one. mentally imagining wii fit and a keyboard made me giggle. and kind of reminded me of track and field for nes

Edited by The Derrit

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Name one example of a game that doesn't work on keyboard and mouse that does on a controller.

Are you serious? Why are you insisting so much? If you think that consoles are nothing different than computers then fuck, let's start a new thread about that and let's see why the playstations, the xboxes, etc exist.

So. I never mentioned anything about games that couldn't be played with keyboard+mouse. Any game that uses a controller CAN technically work on a keyboard, because you know, it's just buttons. That's not the problem. I only talked about games that were much more awkward to play with a keyboard than with a controller. I think Crowbar Man summed it up pretty well. If you really think that games in the style of classic Metroids, Mega Man games, Kirby games, Super Smash Bros. games, all racing games, party games, etc etc would offer the same experience on a PC than on a console, then I think you're just hopeless, imo.

Also, Gollgagh. I lol'd.

Edited by DaMonz

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Name one example of a game that doesn't work on keyboard and mouse that does on a controller.

Ever tried to input a SPD motion on a keyboard? It takes a lot longer than it does on a fightstick; long enough that you basically can't do it.

Kind of a moot point since 360 controllers work on PC though, as is this entire discussion, again because of how simple it is to use Joy2Key or 360 controller (or both). Mapping your buttons isn't extra work unless your preferences are different from the default -- there is a big push to enable complete control remapping on consoles also to help disabled gamers out for this reason.

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Name one example of a game that doesn't work on keyboard and mouse that does on a controller.

Please go and beat God Hand using a keyboard and come back to me thx~~~

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while there is ingrained issues in the system as it is now, there is a reason that game development is a meritocracy. and it SHOULD be a meritocracy. making games costs money, even small games. nobody (including developers themselves) wants to make a game that nobody likes, because it's a waste of the developers' time and money. if you can't produce a quality game it probably means you should keep educating yourself until you can. not that someone needs to make you a cheap, easy-to-develop-for system to put it on.

So basically this is OCR vs VGMix all over again. :P

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literally zero of these things are examples of games that can't be played with a mouse and keyboard. they're examples of games you personally don't enjoy on a mouse and keyboard.

I don't think anybody enjoy some those examples on a keyboard. But I guess you missed the spot where I said they would technically "work" just not be any fun.

also, there is no such thing as 'not supporting controllers.' it's an input device. once it's installed, it can be used for input because you can map it to do anything you want.

Uh yes, there is such a thing as not supporting a controller. Why would you even say this?

You have to program in controller support. If its not there, its not there.

If you bothered to read the rest of what I said, having to use joy2key or xpadder or something similar is not "Controller Support" by the dev. Its outside support, and not something your average joe will put up with or know about. Its not even fun for those who are in the know.

specifically indie developers that are good, and can prove their success to the point where they're able to produce a console because they have the clout and popular following to back it up.

1) Being good and popular doesn't magically give you enough money to produce on a console.

2) Again suggesting if you aren't on a console you aren't good/popular enough.

3) See Valve. Even if you have enough money to get your content to a console, its still a gigantic money sink to continue to produce updates and content, don't even think about doing it for free. Unlike PC/Android/iOS where you can get frequent updates and new content, even for free. This is something that would be amazing to have on consoles.

if you want to make a console style game i hope you have a lot of money anyways.

*sigh*

there's a reason it's so much more expensive to develop for consoles outside of licensing fees.

Well, the Dev Kit, and I'm sure there are other costs, but most of them unrelated to actually making games.

it's because console style experiences require more manpower and significantly higher technical quality. a technically brilliant 2d sprited game (let's say something akin to a sonic and knuckles 3) is a great game, but being able to do that doesn't translate to a 3d, high powered, more technically demanding game (see all 3d sonic games ever. except apparently sonic adventure 2 battle but i personally wasn't the hugest of fans).

The hell are you even talking about here? Indie games are not typically high end, even when they manage to have enough money to get on a console.

Consoles are typically lower end than PC anyways, sky is the limit on the PC. Really, you aren't making any sense.

I serioiusly think you've confused "Console" with "High End"/"AAA".

I have no freaking clue what you are talking about with the 2D to 3D transition. That has nothing to do with anything, console games don't even have to be 3D. Even if they were, there are plenty of tools now to develop a 3D game, its far less expensive then when doing 3D at all was considered high end. But that has nothing to do with anything.

Edited by Crowbar Man

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Somebody takes PSN down and Sony responds by never making video games again

From now on I'm blaming Prot for every security breach ever.

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Platformers (like the before mentioned Super Meat Boy),

Played the entirety of Super Meat Boy on a keyboard.

Fighters, and Racing games are pretty akward to play on a keyboard & mouse.

But wait, name one example of these games that don't have controller support.

:nicework:

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while there is ingrained issues in the system as it is now, there is a reason that game development is a meritocracy. and it SHOULD be a meritocracy. making games costs money, even small games. nobody (including developers themselves) wants to make a game that nobody likes, because it's a waste of the developers' time and money. if you can't produce a quality game it probably means you should keep educating yourself until you can. not that someone needs to make you a cheap, easy-to-develop-for system to put it on.

edit: gollgagh nice one. mentally imagining wii fit and a keyboard made me giggle. and kind of reminded me of track and field for nes

This is a misleading argument. Making games doesn't cost money. I could decide to go home on Friday night and start work on a game written in Java, using MySQL as a backend, and Javascript as a client-side tool for facebook. Or, I could start with C++ and compile my 3D game using openGL. I could do all of this on a cheap netbook you can buy on eBay for less than $50.

The costs are the opportunity cost of what developers are not doing instead. If I'm writing a game, I'm not making money at a normal job. I'm "paying" by losing the opportunity to make money elsewhere. Thus, money is lost even though it costs nothing in parts to actually write a game.

Frankly, I'm surprised every time I look at the number of iPhone or Android apps. There are so many software development jobs out there that I don't understand why anyone in today's environment who knows how to write games would waste their days writing low-quality indie games that have a 1 in 1000 chance of success. They could get a job making $60-80k/yr with health insurance instead.

The market is flooded with games simply because it's so cheap to create them. The Ouya will be so inundated with indie games that few, if any, of them will make as much for the developer as a standard software developer position could earn.

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Also, there's no such thing as making a graphically high end game for little cost, so the hardware point (on having to program for different hardware from back before by DaMonz) is pretty moot.

Any indie games without decent funding will at best have nice hand-drawn or sprite visuals, which are not that taxing on a system. Programming for specific hardware is not really an issue at all; like I said, DirectX makes that problem completely vanish.

Edited by Neblix

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But wait, name one example of these games that don't have controller support.

How many times must I say it? It's not about not having controller support, it's about keyboard+mouse support being the MAIN source of input, which is AWKWARD for some games god dammit. Go play super smash bros. (for example) without a controller on an emulator, and you'll understand PERFECTLY what I mean.

Also, there's no such thing as making a graphically high end game for little cost, so the hardware point (on having to program for different hardware from back before by DaMonz) is pretty moot.

Any indie games without decent funding will at best have nice hand-drawn or sprite visuals, which are not that taxing on a system. Programming for specific hardware is not really an issue at all; like I said, DirectX makes that problem completely vanish.

Okay, seriously, you're clearly not even trying to put a little bit of effort to understand my posts, and you still quote me. Go read my previous posts, because I've already been clear on this point. Geez.

Seriously guys, am I crazy? Are console games not different from computer games inherently? Have my whole life been a lie?

EDIT: I'll save you the trouble (for the flexible hardware thing):

I was talking about consoles in general, because the argument had slightly drifted to "are consoles different than computers". I am well aware that most indie devs don't have the means to make games that push recent computers to their limits.
Edited by DaMonz

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How many times must I say it? It's not about not having controller support, it's about keyboard+mouse support being the MAIN source of input, which is AWKWARD for some games god dammit. Go play super smash bros. (for example) without a controller on an emulator, and you'll understand PERFECTLY what I mean.

Smash Bros. wasn't made on the PC. You're not listening at all.

Find me a PC Game that is awkward to play on a keyboard and does not have controller support.

You will find none, because no one in their right mind would release a game that is impossible to play.

You keep saying this stuff about PC games needing to have keyboard as a main input, with controllers "maybe" as a side thought. I am saying you are wrong, because any game that is awkward on a keyboard will have controller support.

Every named example (Super Meat Boy, Fighting games, Racing games) has controller support.

Are you dense?

A console is a computer with a barebones operating system and a special controller. Nothing more.

Edited by Neblix

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Seriously guys, am I crazy? Are console games not different from computer games inherently? Have my whole life been a lie?

apparently, seeing as they're not. racing games, fighting games, and all cross-platform games (which is more or less every aaa title ever) perform well on pc sales wise. in fact the only real difference i can think of is that on a pc, your publisher won't force you to make a multiplayer mode for a game that distinctly does not mesh well with multiplayer.

computers played the first video games, and computers still play the latest titles on xbox and ps3. other than 'keyboard and mouse? ewww icky' there's no difference.

edit:

This is a misleading argument. Making games doesn't cost money. I could decide to go home on Friday night and start work on a game written in Java, using MySQL as a backend, and Javascript as a client-side tool for facebook. Or, I could start with C++ and compile my 3D game using openGL. I could do all of this on a cheap netbook you can buy on eBay for less than $50.

The costs are the opportunity cost of what developers are not doing instead. If I'm writing a game, I'm not making money at a normal job. I'm "paying" by losing the opportunity to make money elsewhere. Thus, money is lost even though it costs nothing in parts to actually write a game.

Frankly, I'm surprised every time I look at the number of iPhone or Android apps. There are so many software development jobs out there that I don't understand why anyone in today's environment who knows how to write games would waste their days writing low-quality indie games that have a 1 in 1000 chance of success. They could get a job making $60-80k/yr with health insurance instead.

The market is flooded with games simply because it's so cheap to create them. The Ouya will be so inundated with indie games that few, if any, of them will make as much for the developer as a standard software developer position could earn.

i love this post. for real.

Edited by The Derrit

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